Should Amplifiers Be Transparent?

[venkatcr]

I have deleted a number of posts (including mine and those of Kanwar) that I think were irrelevant to this thread. I am, frankly, disappointed with the reception we have given to a new member who could, potentially, contribute technically to the forum. Whether we agree or not with what he says is a different matter. If we do not, we can, as is the norm, simply agree to disagree.

My apologies, Kanwar.

HemanthWaghe, I think you have pushed your point about names, genres, and type of music enough. Whether Kanwar wants to answer them or not is his option. I would also request you to stop misspelling words purposely and entering badly formed sentences. Though you may find it humorous, after a while, such posts become an eyesore, and the person who looks bad is you. Not anyone else. Please consider this a sincere advice from me.

Let us continue this discussion with civility.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

That also means that the gear is flawed in a domain that we do not know how to measure, but the sophisticated mechanism we have in our body measured it and found a flaw in it as well

Measuring sound is in the domain of science but measuring music ???

This is an often repeated argument in HFV and many such forums. What I find strange is the difficult in people's minds to separate the two - testing and hearing.

Given the level of science and sophistication of instruments we have and their capability to 'hear' way beyond the capacity of the human ear, it would be strange not to accept that, today, we can measure sound to a very large degree of accuracy. This could be many aspects of the sound, - wavelength, frequency, SNR, THD, Jitter, and so on.

It is quite feasible today to measure any audio unit and specify what it is doing quite accurately. Whether you like the sound coming out of the unit or not is a personal choice.

As a corollary, if an instrument is saying measurably that a particular unit is noisy, noisy it is. You may like the sound as you may find it pleasing to your ears. But that does not make the unit perfect or the best in the world.

I have always maintained that specifications are the fundamental base from which you start. You them move forward to audition equipment and choose the ones you ears like.

Cheers

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

There is an old hi-fi proverb that says,

"....if it measures good but sounds bad then you've measured the wrong thing and if it sounds good but measures bad then you've still measured the wrong thing...."

Confucius will now leave the building,and head to the Club for a Sunday afternoon :beer:

Regards
Rajiv:cheers:

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

@Kanwar, welcome to the forum. All of us are certain to benifit from your knowledge.

I would love to see pictures of your horn sub and main speakers.

Four 18 inch woofers ,that must be huge.What compression drivers are you using?

Regards
Rajiv

 

[venkatcr]

Confucius will now leave the building,and head to the Club for a Sunday afternoon :beer:

The real Confucius must be turning in his grave for the gross misuse of his sayings.

Cheers

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hi,

There is an old hi-fi proverb that says,

"....if it measures good but sounds bad then you've measured the wrong thing and if it sounds good but measures bad then you've still measured the wrong thing...."

Confucius will now leave the building,and head to the Club for a Sunday afternoon :beer:

Regards
Rajiv:cheers:

This quote, though old, is not trivial.

Given the level of science and sophistication of instruments we have and their capability to 'hear' way beyond the capacity of the human ear, it would be strange not to accept that, today, we can measure sound to a very large degree of accuracy. This could be many aspects of the sound, - wavelength, frequency, SNR, THD, Jitter, and so on.

Hearing and comprehending what you hear are totally two different things. A machine cannot understand PRAT, forget about understanding its importance in music. For a machine as long as a music track which is suppose to complete in 5.02 mins does it in 5.02 mins, it is accurate !!! But humans can EASILY perceive the problems in timing and rhythm even though the song is finished in 5.02 mins. How do you explain that ?

 

[venkatcr]

As I said, instruments can measure sound, not music.

On a similar vein, instruments can measure speed (of CDPs, TTs) etc., and things like jitter way before human ears can even comprehend them.

The idea is not to look at measurements and hearing as competing factors, but rather as complementary references that can give us units that we can really enjoy with a high degree of confidence that what we are hearing is really good.

I have consistently seen units with questionable specifications deliver poor results. To a designer, measurements form the base platform on which he can set the design. After that it moves in realms that differentiates a Ken Ishiwata and John Curl from the rest of the crowd. But if you think these people base their designs purely on their ears, you are wrong. They use large amounts and physics and measurements to design and improve their design.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

I know this debate will not reach any conclusions.Like other 'hot' debates on the forum it will finally start huffing and puffing and fall down from sheer exhaustion.Which is the way everything goes in life
But out of mere curiosity I would like to know which well known amps are considered 'transparent' or 'coloured' by the folks participating in this thread.And lets keep the proceedings amicable and pleasant because the answer my friends is blowing in the wind.And the wind is restless and mysterious.
Bryston
Accuphase
Sim Moon
Odyssey
Krell
Plinius
Musical Fidelity
Pass Labs
Arcam
Cyrus
Naim
Primare
McIntosh
Audio Research
Jadis
Ayon
Pathos
Lyrita
Cadence
Others

 

[kanwar]

Hi,

@Kanwar, welcome to the forum. All of us are certain to benifit from your knowledge.

I would love to see pictures of your horn sub and main speakers.

Four 18 inch woofers ,that must be huge.What compression drivers are you using?

Regards
Rajiv

Hi Rajiv,

Compression drivers are P.Audio 750M 150W HF with long throw spherical flange for directionality and coverage.

Horn Loaded subs are huge no doubt.


Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[kanwar]

I have deleted a number of posts (including mine and those of Kanwar) that I think were irrelevant to this thread. I am, frankly, disappointed with the reception we have given to a new member who could, potentially, contribute technically to the forum. Whether we agree or not with what he says is a different matter. If we do not, we can, as is the norm, simply agree to disagree.

My apologies, Kanwar.

Let us continue this discussion with civility.

Cheers

Appreciated...


Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[kanwar]

@ Rajiv

Just for your curiosity, here are some pics of my Dual 18inch horn loaded Sub woofer.




Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[arj]

Request more pics !. please

 

[captrajesh]

I would love to see pictures of your horn sub and main speakers.

Four 18 inch woofers ,that must be huge.What compression drivers are you using?

Where did Kanwar refer them to? Am I missing something?

 

[kanwar]

Hi Captain,

Would you please elaborate a little bit more?


Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[captrajesh]

Would you please elaborate a little bit more?

Hi Kanwar,

I was responding to Rajiv's post requesting you to post the pics of your speakers etc but I did not see them being referred to in any of your posts.

Since I read VenkatCR's post stating that he had deleted few posts for being irrelevant etc., and I'm reading this thread only today, I was asking if I had missed something?

BTW, I looked up the website of Zephyr Labs but it doesn't contain much info.

Rgds


Rajesh

 

[dragonxwas]

your ears are different than mine..you look different from me... then why would one want all amps to be transparent..

Basically its the difference in tolerances of the components that makes even the same amps from same batch sound different even when connected to same speakers..

you get a 22K resistor one would be 22.12K the other would be 22.22K and so on..
this is the basic cause of differences in every amp..

Also buying an amp is like getting a new girlfriend..You must like her/it..you must love her sound and not her sisters ...

 

[kanwar]

Hi Kanwar,

I was responding to Rajiv's post requesting you to post the pics of your speakers etc but I did not see them being referred to in any of your posts.

Since I read VenkatCR's post stating that he had deleted few posts for being irrelevant etc., and I'm reading this thread only today, I was asking if I had missed something?

BTW, I looked up the website of Zephyr Labs but it doesn't contain much info.

Rgds


Rajesh

Hi Captain,

Thanks for pointing out. Just edited that post now with a referral to Rajiv.
Btw: you haven't missed anything important yet.
We don't have any website which goes by the name Zephyr Labs.


Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[venkatcr]

your ears are different than mine..you look different from me... then why would one want all amps to be transparent..

What each one wants is certainly different, but that does not change the discussion point. If you like particular amp that colours a frequency, you are welcome to it.

you get a 22K resistor one would be 22.12K the other would be 22.22K and so on.. this is the basic cause of differences in every amp..

This is where burn-in and testing plays a part. If a manufacturer cannot plan for these differences, his quality control and testing is very suspect.

Also buying an amp is like getting a new girlfriend..You must like her/it..you must love her sound and not her sisters ...

Unlike GFs who emotionally/socially tie you down, if I find a better amp, there is no reason why I should not opt for it.

Cheers

 

[kanwar]

you get a 22K resistor one would be 22.12K the other would be 22.22K and so on..
this is the basic cause of differences in every amp..

Dragonxwas,

This much difference in resistor value won't create a big difference that you would hear it. Every manufacturer specifies component tolerance and specification tolerance when commencing a batch production. Normally a spread from 1 to 5 % in variation is allowed and circuit is designed in this way that this much variation doesn't causes it to get unstable.

There are many other parameters like circuit topology, transistor type, pcb layout, capacitor dielectric type etc which in actual plays a vital role in taming the sound i.e. difference between coloration and transparency.

Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[kanwar]

This is where burn-in and testing plays a part. If a manufacturer cannot plan for these differences, his quality control and testing is very suspect.

Cheers

Right to the point..........