Sony Bravia KDL EX650 Vs Samsung UA40ES56

[rangan]

But one important point. In 2008/2009, nothing was close to kuro at that time, but now most of the others have come close or better in some other aspects (in PQ).

 

[longshanks]

Finally - Kuro is not untouchable. And the most important - Nothing is absolutely superior as shanmune always says.

Sure, nothing is untouchable and i will be glad if some of the top end plasma's can actually be better than kuro, its means i am only ready to spend my money and buy them.

What you say is right, there are a few top end plasma which are in certain area's better than kuro, but my from my personal experience i am yet to see a television which has the overall HD picture which amazed me like the kuro did.

Trust me, you have to experience a 60" 600M kuro displaying HD to know what i am talking about.

 

[rangan]

Sure, nothing is untouchable and i will be glad if some of the top end plasma's can actually be better than kuro, its means i am only ready to spend my money and buy them.

What you say is right, there are a few top end plasma which are in certain area's better than kuro, but my from my personal experience i am yet to see a television which has the overall HD picture which amazed me like the kuro did.

Trust me, you have to experience a 60" 600M kuro displaying HD to know what i am talking about.

I completely agree. In fact kuro is almost 3-4 years old and we are still keeping it as one the reference models and it says a lot about it.

Adding some more points and questions as well purely from technical point of view.

First - A quote from Chad B on his comparison between VT50 and Kuro:
"Black levels were the best Ive seen on a plasma since the last generation of Kuros, and I would venture to say any remaining differences in black levels between the 60 9G Kuro and the 65VT50 would be extremely hard to see except during direct comparisons of mostly black screens in a very dark room"

Again -he strictly compares only between two plasmas here (on a completely dark screen) and he goes on to say that black levels on a completely dark screen of top end LEDs (Elite and HX929) are better than VT50.

Now the technical question - Many say that black levels of VT50 is very much close to kuro, but Elite/HX929 has still more black levels than VT50 on a complete black screen. I heard Elite/HX929 (local dimmed) turns-off the LEDs to show absolute black levels. HDTVtest (UK site) said it almost touched 0 cd/m2 and they said their instruments were not able to measure such a black level from HX923 (I guess UK version of HX929). My specific question is - if both Elite and HX929 can make a complete black screen as black as possible, how do they compare (only on the black levels) with kuro. With little knowledge I have, I beleive kuro still emits light to show the black and can that be blacker than Elite/HX929 ?. My guess is HX929/Elite would be better than Kuro in that regard. Any way, please post what you think.

I guess we might be hijacking this thread. I beleive a seperate thread can be started for this kuro vs others.

 

[adder]

Apple Cinema display is indeed one of the best displays around and who says one cannot watch television or a movie on an apple cinema display? they don't call it cinema display for no reason.

Apple cinema is classified as a monitor does it come in screen size larger then 30",it has poor contrast,no built in tuner as so on.

@all Monitors are irrelevant for tv thread and for tv applications.

Before and after calibration my measurement equipment gave me a black level of 0.00 cd/m2. This suggests that black levels on LX9500 are perfect or very close to perfect but it's also the limitation of our measuring equipment.[/
Absolute black is also more or less perfect on LX9500. In a completely dark room you cannot see any light getting through from the panel when the LED local dimming system is activated. This is very positive and LX9500 deserves praise for a well-designed local dimming system[/B]

LG LX9500 (3DTV) review - FlatpanelsHD

LE8500 has magnificent black levels without doubt. This is also visible in practice and contributes to new dimension of depth in the picture. Even during daytime black levels are very good in spite of the very reflective glass front.

But deep black reproduction is not worth much if shadow detailing is poor. Luckily this is not the case with LE8500 and most of the time I see quite good shadow detailing. The problem with LED local dimming systems is the shadow detailing varies according to the picture content.

LG LE8500 review - FlatpanelsHD
LG Infinia 55LX9500 Review - Watch CNET's Video Review

All these lgs have local dimming,on pixel level their contrast is still much lower then VA panels.

 

[avmaxfan]

With Local Dimming any panel can achieve great blacks, so those TV's don't count. (They are EXCELLENT Tvs though !! )

 

[longshanks]

Apple cinema is classified as a monitor does it come in screen size larger then 30",it has poor contrast,no built in tuner as so on.So monitors are irrelevant for tv thread and for tv applications.

All these lgs have local dimming,on pixel level their contrast is still much lower then VA panels.

It is not apple cinema it is called apple cinema display since when do we need a built in tuner to watch movies or even television these days? we are not in the 80's.

Even kuro 500 M is sold without a tuner but many people in AVS have bought them and still consider it as a television, your point is moot in 2012.

Right now lets forget blacks and nit pick on contrast, the moral is to nit pick only the negatives when we speak of any brand or technology which is not Sony or Sony related.lol

Flatpanel HD does not give any contrast numbers because of this statement.

Before and after calibration my measurement equipment gave me a black level of 0.00 cd/m2.

But where did you measure that LX9500 has inferior contrast?

Just a few posts ago you said blacks are very important now you changed to contrast and screw the blacks, but when i post that plasma's does all this better you say no they don't have brightness so they suck, but while speaking about IPS's brightness and viewing angle you again get back to blacks on VA, so overall you like to confuse people and promote Sony LCD's, what ever Sony uses i guess you will end up supporting the same(also buy this recommendation i guess you want everyone to enjoy the strictly below average picture most of the VA based television produces).:clapping:

 

[adder]

It is not apple cinema it is called apple cinema display since when do we need a built in tuner to watch movies or even television these days? we are not in the 80's.

Even kuro 500 M is sold without a tuner but many people in AVS have bought them and still consider it as a television, your point is moot in 2012.

The apple is a monitor ,does it come in large sizes,does it have a remote?
If you look in the US these tvs have built in ATSC HD tuners,if you look in china they DVB-T HD tuners built in.,in the UK they have built in freeview HD tuners.

But where did you measure that LX9500 has inferior contrast?

Just a few posts ago you said blacks are very important now you changed to contrast and screw the blacks, but when i post that plasma's does all this better you say no they don't have brightness so they suck, but while speaking about IPS's brightness and viewing angle you again get back to blacks on VA, so overall you like to confuse people and promote Sony LCD's, what ever Sony uses i guess you will end up supporting the same(also buy this recommendation i guess you want everyone to enjoy the strictly below average picture most of the VA based television produces).:clapping:

Why are you bringing Sony into this,where did i mention anything about Sony in post you quoted.

Please don't twist my words where have i said screw blacks .

The lg will still has a lower contrast on pixel level,incase you didn't know contrast is ratio of both blacks and whites .

Whats about the IPS brightness ,VA panel brightness are more then enough,then can go to 400+ cd/m2 just like any other lcd panel tech.

 

[longshanks]

The apple is a monitor ,does it come in large sizes,does it have a remote?
If you look in the US these tvs have built in ATSC HD tuners,if you look in china they DVB-T HD tuners built in.,in the UK they have built in freeview HD tuners.

Sure there is an apple remote which can be use apple tv connected to the cinema display and there is always set top box remote when i connect my set top box HDMI to the apple cinema display, again think out of the box we are not in 1980.

May displays which are being used as everyday television don't have an inbuilt tuner but they simply make use of an external tuner or a set top box so don't give some lame reasons. Also these tuners absolutely make zero sense in many countries including India.

Why are you bringing Sony into this,where did i mention anything about Sony in post you quoted.

Please don't twist my words where have i said screw blacks .

The lg will still has a lower contrast on pixel level,incase you didn't know contrast is ratio of both blacks and whites .

lol contrast ratio is not of both blacks and whites it is rather defined as the ratio of the luminance of the brightest color (white) to that of the darkest color (black) that the system is capable of producing.
Contrast ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So as soon the blacks goes to zero or below no matter what kind of white the television produces the contrast shoots to a huge number.

Sure you did not bring Sony but that opinion of mine was based on all of your past posts and what kind of a trend all your posts tend to follow.You did not say screw blacks but you rather change direction and speak of contrast when i post an IPS based television having zero black level.

In pixel level all the panels will go and hide behind a wall when compared to plasma but we are not here to talk about that are we? we talk about the actual TV, the over all package with the back lighting and processing and so on. In fact without back lighting every LCD panel is not usable so you say we stop using them?

LX9500 has zero black(because of the local dimming)and may be even lower which translates to infinite contrast so hence flatpanel HD did not mention a number.


we suggest you leave the dynamic backlighting switched on because it gets rid of clouding and improves the IPS display's contrast ratio. It does such a good job, in fact, that it's impossible to measure how deep the blacks are, meaning the contrast ratio is somewhere between 73000:1 and infinity. Impressive stuff

overall verdict:

The LX9500 is a great TV in both 2D and 3D. It reproduces colours accurately, is very responsive and has a great contrast ratio when you use the dynamic backlighting. The only drawback is a little light blooming around bright objects.

LG 55LX9500: Full Review

 

[mbhangui]

You just cannot get good colors on VA panels. Yes VA will have a better contrast ratio but then IPS-pro (used by Panasonic) also provide high contrast ratio.

IPS panels now days Offer 1.07 billion colours (30-bit colour depth). More possible orientations per sub-pixel (1024 as opposed to 256) and produces a better true colour depth. In contrast, S-PVA panels provide 8-bit colour depth and even on high-end S-PVA panels (eg. used by Sony Bravia) can use only 10-bit color depth)

In fact with normal viewing it is very easy to distinguish between a IPS and a PVA panel. The panel which shows better colour will be an IPS panel. When you look from the sides (which no one in normal viewing does), the black will not appear black in IPS.

How to distinguish S-PVA from S-IPS monitor? - YouTube

Panels like IPS-Pro from Panasonic, Hitachi and Toshiba are able to achieve high contrast ratio also. So the so called primary advantage (contrast ratio) of VA panels does not apply to the latest IPS-pro panels.

TFT LCD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[avmaxfan]

@mbhangui

Don't bring VA monitors and IPS monitors into discussion here. We are discussing TVs not monitors. So please stop quoting articles about IPS monitors. For monitors IPS is best and I too agree with that. I personally prefer IPS for monitors.

@longshanks

AnandTech - Apple 27-inch LED Cinema Display Review

The above reviews will tell you how good (or not) Apple Cinema is. And no more discussion on monitors please.

As for the VA vs IPS debate, you are yet to show me any proof that a non local dimming IPS panel can produce anywhere close to the contrast and black levels of VA panels.

As for brightness too, the brightest TVs reviewed incidentally are Sony sets and not LG IPS. HX950 reaches 400 cd/m2 +. LG LM9600 is 350-380 cd/m2.

Btw since when are you interested in peak white figures ? You leave no chance to bash LCD saying how so much brightness is not necessary and that you prefer plasma's limited brightness anyday. And now you are trying to push IPS saying how its brighter than VA panels. Your fav site televisioninfo for sure doesn't agree. Samsung/Sony VA sets are right up there or better than LG IPS sets in terms of peak white

And you still haven't answered why you are choosing to ignore the verdict of sites like CNET that you worshiped until last year just because they later changed their HX929 review and complained of blooming and other issues ? You sure loved that, didn't you ?

But this year when they didn't post anything that you could use to your advantage here, you conveniently decided to ignore CNET reviews.

 

[adder]

Sure there is an apple remote which can be use apple tv connected to the cinema display and there is always set top box remote when i connect my set top box HDMI to the apple cinema display, again think out of the box we are not in 1980.

May displays which are being used as everyday television don't have an inbuilt tuner but they simply make use of an external tuner or a set top box so don't give some lame reasons. Also these tuners absolutely make zero sense in many countries including India.

How many people use monitors for watching tv,i for one sure don't.
The tvs have years of research put into image processing,to improve videos of non native resolution of the display.Tvs have really good deinterlacing built into them and many set top box output only 1080i like my big tv HD-DVR.
Even if the STB did output a progressive signal they have poor deintercaler built in.

Sure you did not bring Sony but that opinion of mine was based on all of your past posts and what kind of a trend all your posts tend to follow.You did not say screw blacks but you rather change direction and speak of contrast when i post an IPS based television having zero black level.

In pixel level all the panels will go and hide behind a wall when compared to plasma but we are not here to talk about that are we? we talk about the actual TV, the over all package with the back lighting and processing and so on. In fact without back lighting every LCD panel is not usable so you say we stop using them?

LX9500 has zero black(because of the local dimming)and may be even lower which translates to infinite contrast so hence flatpanel HD did not mention a number.


we suggest you leave the dynamic backlighting switched on because it gets rid of clouding and improves the IPS display's contrast ratio. It does such a good job, in fact, that it's impossible to measure how deep the blacks are, meaning the contrast ratio is somewhere between 73000:1 and infinity. Impressive stuff

LG 55LX9500: Full Review

Even a TN panel can show 0.0 cd/m2 if its backlight switched off .That is why we have ANSI testing methodology a IPS panel tv will definitely suffer in a pixel level contrast if the ANSI check board pattern falls in both the dimmed and non dimmed zone the IPS panels will definitely have a inferior contrast with poor blacks.

Sure the best plasmas can show the best blacks on pixel level compared to the best lcd which is another matter plasma vs lcd.If you take a closer look at that matter ambient light plays a crucial role in it.

As kevin miller said in those shootouts even the exit lights in a cinema halls contribute to a significant loss in contrast,even the color of your room if its anything other then a dark shade will results in loss in contrast,thats why in the VE HDTV shootout the walls and roof where painted matte black.

That is why you use see reviewers taking those measurements in a pitch black room and and meter is placed inside a black curtain.

I have been saying many times again in any plasma or lcd thread the first question i ask is the ambient light in their living room .

That is if you have a living room which is of dark ambiance then by all means go with plasmas.But if the living room as ambient light hitting the screen then the tides quickly favor lcd .

 

[adder]

You just cannot get good colors on VA panels. Yes VA will have a better contrast ratio but then IPS-pro (used by Panasonic) also provide high contrast ratio.

IPS panels now days Offer 1.07 billion colours (30-bit colour depth). More possible orientations per sub-pixel (1024 as opposed to 256) and produces a better true colour depth. In contrast, S-PVA panels provide 8-bit colour depth and even on high-end S-PVA panels (eg. used by Sony Bravia) can use only 10-bit color depth)

In fact with normal viewing it is very easy to distinguish between a IPS and a PVA panel. The panel which shows better colour will be an IPS panel. When you look from the sides (which no one in normal viewing does), the black will not appear black in IPS.

How to distinguish S-PVA from S-IPS monitor? - YouTube

Panels like IPS-Pro from Panasonic, Hitachi and Toshiba are able to achieve high contrast ratio also. So the so called primary advantage (contrast ratio) of VA panels does not apply to the latest IPS-pro panels.

TFT LCD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First of all those 30 bit panels quoted by HP have natively a 10bit LG IPS panel,they come up with that 30 bit number by processing,which has nothing to with IPS panel.

Those IPS pro panels still have low contrast,the only way they can increase the contrast is by using local dimming which lg has been using long before panasonic or toshiba.

 

[longshanks]

Even a TN panel can show 0.0 cd/m2 if its backlight switched off .That is why we have ANSI testing methodology a IPS panel tv will definitely suffer in a pixel level contrast if the ANSI check board pattern falls in both the dimmed and non dimmed zone the IPS panels will definitely have a inferior contrast with poor blacks..

So that was my question few posts ago, where did LX9500 suffer in ANSI check board contrast? you have any measurements?

I am not sure why you keep explaining known terms like contrast ratio and ANSI test pastern, you assume people don't know all these simple stuff?

This is what flatpanel HD says.

All contrast measurements are based on the ANSI methodology.

The same flatpanel HD says LX9500 has great contrast because of the super black levels.


You again keep repeating the same stuff again and again to a post where i give LX9500 as an example and yet fail to provide any numbers.While using ANSI method to measure contrast they sure do have back light engaged so LX9500 has local dimming and it will still be able to produce amazing contrast, like i said before with out back lighting both VA and IPS will suffer similar kind of horror(more or less) and to defeat that they have all this new kinds of back lighting where certain drawbacks of the panel fades away.

 

[adder]

So that was my question few posts ago, where did LX9500 suffer in ANSI check board contrast? you have any measurements?

I am not sure why you keep explaining known terms like contrast ratio and ANSI test pastern, you assume people don't know all these simple stuff?

This is what flatpanel HD says.

All contrast measurements are based on the ANSI methodology.

The same flatpanel HD says LX9500 has great contrast because of the super black levels.


You again keep repeating the same stuff again and again to a post where i give LX9500 as an example and yet fail to provide any numbers.While using ANSI method to measure contrast they sure do have back light engaged so LX9500 has local dimming and it will still be able to produce amazing contrast, like i said before with out back lighting both VA and IPS will suffer similar kind of horror(more or less) and to defeat that they have all this new kinds of back lighting where certain drawbacks of the panel fades away.

Logic says that ANSI check board patten can consists of various check board patterns.from 4x4 ,6x6 ,9x9 and so on.
The Sharp elite Kuro for eg has two different readings in ANSI method in VE HD shootout in 2011 it scored a higher contrast ratio,but in 2012 shootout it scored a lower contrast ratio thats because in 2012 shootout they increased the number of white and black checks.

Look at my post carefully i said if the dimming zone consist of both white and a dark check the local dimming cannot be fully dimmed or it won't be switched OFF,if thats the case the LG IPS panel will show its native inferior contrast at those zones.I bet you that every black zone will have a different reading depending on the placement of black area with respect to dimming zones behind
Besides on pixel level IPS panels are still inferior in blacks.

 

[avmaxfan]

Guys let's stop the discussion here. It's stretched a bit too much off topic.

And longshanks, if you wanna continue you can create a new thread titled "Sony Bashing thread" and continue there.

Thanks and peace !

 

[longshanks]

@adder

Sure, with increased number of check's in the pattern any LCD panel will suffer no matter IPS or VA, VA might have a slight advantage like how IPS has advantages in other parameters.

On pixel level Both IPS and VA has inferior blacks, i am not sure why people fail to read my post completely, i will repeat this again, without back lighting and any kind of processing all LCD panels will have laughable blacks,motion resolution,contrast compared to Plasma,OLED or CRT.

But we are discussing the whole package here,pixel level black or contrast does not bother many(it bothers me though) when almost all television has some advanced back lighting so why even speak about the same when it is a draw back on LCD panels.

@avmaxfan

Don't talk non sense, i don't have to create any threads but i will sure join all of your i love Sony and i want to worship threads.

 

[avmaxfan]

As they say, beating a dead horse isn't gonna get one anywhere

 

[adder]

@adder

Sure, with increased number of check's in the pattern any LCD panel will suffer no matter IPS or VA, VA might have a slight advantage like how IPS has advantages in other parameters.

The main significant advantage of TV type IPS panels are the viewing angles which no one will deny.For monitors,laptops,phones,cameras i would choose a IPS over a VA type panel.

On pixel level Both IPS and VA has inferior blacks, i am not sure why people fail to read my post completely, i will repeat this again, without back lighting and any kind of processing all LCD panels will have laughable blacks,motion resolution,contrast compared to Plasma,OLED or CRT.

Both panels IPS and VA have inferior blacks compared to the BEST panasonic plasmas today in pixel level.All plasma LG,samsung,panasonic have the edge over IPS panels in blacks .

But NOT all plasma have the edge in blacks vs VA based lcd tvs.Only the panasonic ST,VT have the edge.Samsung plasmas for the most part have the same blacks level,since their black level vary from model to model size to size.
Some models have inferior blacks and some models also have slightly Superior blacks to their own samsung non local dimming lcds.

At one point plasma also had laughable blacks and motion.

But we are discussing the whole package here,pixel level black or contrast does not bother many(it bothers me though) when almost all television has some advanced back lighting so why even speak about the same when it is a draw back on LCD panels.

many don't even care about PQ many just care about size vs cost.For many even the IPS panels 1 or 2" screen size advantage is enough a reason to go with IPS based tvs.
As far as the whole package just in regard to PQ its comes down to lots of factors to me contrast,,panel performance with ambient light,color,motion and so on.

 

[longshanks]

The main significant advantage of TV type IPS panels are the viewing angles which no one will deny.For monitors,laptops,phones,cameras i would choose a IPS over a VA type panel.

You are repeating you same old story in spite of several links being posted here to prove IPS panel advantage, IPS as a panel not only has better viewing angles it has better panel level or pixel level brightness and color accuracy compared to any VA panel on earth.

But NOT all plasma have the edge in blacks vs VA based lcd tvs.Only the panasonic ST,VT have the edge.Samsung plasmas for the most part have the same blacks level,since their black level vary from model to model size to size.
Some models have inferior blacks and some models also have slightly Superior blacks to their own samsung non local dimming lcds..

Sure, again you are staring to twist the story, when i spoke about LCD as an over all package you speak of their pixel level performance(real panel level) and when i say all LCD panels perform very bad at pixel level you starting posting about the over all LCD TV :clapping:

Sure some Samsung plasma's have inferior blacks compared to Panasonic(which can made improved by opening up the service menu and lowering panel brightness value) but these measurements are at pixel level(both Samsung and Panasonic are measured the same way because both have no back lighting), but the measurement on VA panels are not at pixel level because there is a back light helping the panel in the background, so to get real pixel level measurements either the number of checks have to be drastically increased and the back light should be turned to min while measuring contrast using the check board pattern, when this happens even the worst plasma on sale today will show the boot to any VA panel on the planet because the back zones will have mediocre results and so will the whites(both blacks and whites will go for a toss).

Stop jumping from Panel level and pixel level into over all LCD TV performance while replying just to force your point.Stick to one proper statement, if you say pixel level the both panels will fail, if you speak in terms of overall TV level then pixel level argument is moot because all modern television these days use different kind of advanced back lighting.

many don't even care about PQ many just care about size vs cost.For many even the IPS panels 1 or 2" screen size advantage is enough a reason to go with IPS based tvs.
As far as the whole package just in regard to PQ its comes down to lots of factors to me contrast,,panel performance with ambient light,color,motion and so on.

Sure, just like how people buy Sony for namesake or even Samsung for that matter, they buy for the happiness of telling everyone that they own an LED TV(like it's some advanced gadget),they forget its just an LCD which now marketed as LED and this false marketing was first started by Samsung.

 

[avmaxfan]

Awesome post ....... NOT

When all the review sites in the world are saying IPS panel equipped TVs this year are just about average in terms of PQ and VA panel LCDs are rated highest, this genius here is trying to say that all the professional reviewers in the world are dumb. Only he is the enlightened one about TV Picture Quality. :clapping:

Just answer my question, do you think all the professional reviewers are idiots to rate Bravia HX850 highest among all LCD's this year and claiming it to be the best LCD of 2012, far ahead of any IPS panel equipped set ? :indifferent14:
Or you think you know more than professional TV reviewers who have reviewed more TVs than you can even imagine.

If your statements were true, nobody would argue with you. Not only are you trying to prove me and adder wrong, but also all the major tech review sites in the world. And I don't think you have any credibility to question the intelligence of all the professional TV reviewers.

If you think you know more than professional reviewers then start your own websites and review TVs there. Then we can at least think of taking you seriously.

The site you quoted to prove that ES8000 is better than HX850 itself mentions that HX850 is the best LCD of 2012 and yet you quote their review to make it seem as if ES8000 is better. What else now ? You made your own LCD TV ? Longshanks Advanced LED LCD TV, better than HX850 and the best LCD of 2012. LOL

So before arguing here and trying to show that Sony Tvs have poor PQ and they are not the best, write mails to HDTVTestUK, Cnet, HomeTheaterMag, TelevisionInfo etc and ask them why they are worshiping Sony


If you still want to keep going and continue to make yourself look like an idiot, please go ahead.