M
mpw
Guest
tiger,
get a pair of speaker stands.. shouldn't be too expensive.
The results will be better
mpw
get a pair of speaker stands.. shouldn't be too expensive.
The results will be better
mpw
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
This thread was v useful in getting my speakers positioned correctly.
The difference it makes to the sound is tremendous. Took a long while to get it done, ~ 5cm off and it sounds very different (my room is on the lively side of the fence)
Reposting a speaker positioning in progress pic I had posted on my Sondyne thread a few days ago
Toeing and inching "millimetering ?" give me a sweet spot that just about fits one nos listener.
ciao
gr
This thread reminded me to rearrange the speakers in my room, and I followed a speaker placement guide linked here (I think Cardas?) with good results. I finally have come around to integrating my sub well into my setup. Earlier nothing I tried satisfied me for more than a few weeks... sooner or later I would discover some new flaw in the sound. which is why I am saying I am close to perfection but not there .. But I am fairly confident now after years of trying to move only the sub without considering correct speaker placement.
Moral of the story - do not attempt integrating a subwoofer and 2.1 setup without first executing a carefully calculated speaker placement exercise. Especially true when not using a subwoofer out preamp and with both speaker and sub playing the lows.
My speakers cannot be placed symmetrically in the room, but in the given circumstances, the articles still helped me discover the best compromise by a studied trial and error approach.
G0bble
Moral of the story - do not attempt integrating a subwoofer and 2.1 setup without first executing a carefully calculated speaker placement exercise. Especially true when not using a subwoofer out preamp and with both speaker and sub playing the lows.
My speakers cannot be placed symmetrically in the room, but in the given circumstances, the articles still helped me discover the best compromise by a studied trial and error approach.
G0bble
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T
tiger0691
Guest
This thread was v useful in getting my speakers positioned correctly.
The difference it makes to the sound is tremendous. Took a long while to get it done, ~ 5cm off and it sounds very different (my room is on the lively side of the fence)
Reposting a speaker positioning in progress pic I had posted on my Sondyne thread a few days ago
Toeing and inching "millimetering ?" give me a sweet spot that just about fits one nos listener.
ciao
gr
Can you get the vocal sound in the middle of the speakers.
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Yes.
I'm guessing there is a lot more to your question than I have understood
ciao
gr
M
mpw
Guest
=====================================================This thread was v useful in getting my speakers positioned correctly.
The difference it makes to the sound is tremendous. Took a long while to get it done, ~ 5cm off and it sounds very different (my room is on the lively side of the fence)
Reposting a speaker positioning in progress pic I had posted on my Sondyne thread a few days ago
Toeing and inching "millimetering ?" give me a sweet spot that just about fits one nos listener.
ciao
gr
the flooring reminds me of my home too.
try isolating the speakers on a plinth or spikes if possible.
anyways.. if u are happy with current level.. may as well let it be.
mpw
@GR: nice to know that you finally resolved your speakers issue, and "one nos. listener" is enjoying the music.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
spikes don't isolate speakers. Their purpose is to pass through carpet, and fix the speaker to the wooden flooring below. This doesn't work very well on typical Indian ceramic-tiled, concrete floors. They level, and make sure the speaker does not vibrate.
they can still be used for that, but with, eg a coin, under them, they are no longer being "spikes." I used to put coins under spikes on a wooden floor: Wrong!
Here's an interesting discussion on a confusing subject: Spikes and Cones Whats the point?
~
they can still be used for that, but with, eg a coin, under them, they are no longer being "spikes." I used to put coins under spikes on a wooden floor: Wrong!
Here's an interesting discussion on a confusing subject: Spikes and Cones Whats the point?
~
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M
mpw
Guest
thanks for the correction thad.
I have had better ( read different ?? ) results with my speaker stands on spikes piercing thru a mini carpet under the speakers.
Yes - one could use cones. I saw an advert on echoloft for about 5 SGD a piece. The central idea being to lift the base of the speaker from the floor by an inch odd.
anyways..
mpw
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
hi,
mpw, thad : I had the spikes on the first set of speakers. The main motivation for the Hindu newspaper mount was ease of moving around. The linked article and a deep reluctance to touch the speakers now will see that the spikes remain in storage. The wife has offered to make a couple of 1" padauk surrounds/ skirt with some left over wood- to ensure that attacking mops do not succeed. I was planning to replace the news with adhesive floor protectors after that is done
my living room is a tube (12 x 25). The positioning part was a long drawn, exercise in patience to eliminate flutter echos (toe-in), and balance the bass (distance from back wall) and mid tones (distance from back wall). I suspect that the space on the side is also critical (RHS is more or less fixed for me)
All that patience made Diana Krall properly smoky (almost Laphro sounding?). Strings are correctly "twangy" and "hang in the air" just right.
I've got a decent enough sound stage which is dramatic enough in tracks like ride across the river or that syrupy sweet Lagaan CD (which I have only because it was there on the " ....soundstage" thread)
I guess carpets, diffuser (bookshelf) and ??? will have to be done to make sure a classic case (Tull) and other propah classic (I only have the itunes ka 100 essential...) creates the full three D illusion, with all the subtle stuff infact. For now however I am happy with what I got.
Thanks Joshua. The evening TV hour is ahem "temporarily suspended" (shared item in setup hogged by yours truly) hence the emphasis on "one nos" with the "enjoying" (to be sure the sweet spot is cramped, a few inches on either side maybe). The resulting lack of soap and excessive sop (Cassidy, Jones, Krall and Gracy) has so far not resulted in blunt force trauma, but I am not taking any chances
ciao
gr
mpw, thad : I had the spikes on the first set of speakers. The main motivation for the Hindu newspaper mount was ease of moving around. The linked article and a deep reluctance to touch the speakers now will see that the spikes remain in storage. The wife has offered to make a couple of 1" padauk surrounds/ skirt with some left over wood- to ensure that attacking mops do not succeed. I was planning to replace the news with adhesive floor protectors after that is done
my living room is a tube (12 x 25). The positioning part was a long drawn, exercise in patience to eliminate flutter echos (toe-in), and balance the bass (distance from back wall) and mid tones (distance from back wall). I suspect that the space on the side is also critical (RHS is more or less fixed for me)
All that patience made Diana Krall properly smoky (almost Laphro sounding?). Strings are correctly "twangy" and "hang in the air" just right.
I've got a decent enough sound stage which is dramatic enough in tracks like ride across the river or that syrupy sweet Lagaan CD (which I have only because it was there on the " ....soundstage" thread)
I guess carpets, diffuser (bookshelf) and ??? will have to be done to make sure a classic case (Tull) and other propah classic (I only have the itunes ka 100 essential...) creates the full three D illusion, with all the subtle stuff infact. For now however I am happy with what I got.
Thanks Joshua. The evening TV hour is ahem "temporarily suspended" (shared item in setup hogged by yours truly) hence the emphasis on "one nos" with the "enjoying" (to be sure the sweet spot is cramped, a few inches on either side maybe). The resulting lack of soap and excessive sop (Cassidy, Jones, Krall and Gracy) has so far not resulted in blunt force trauma, but I am not taking any chances
ciao
gr
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M
mpw
Guest
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
It is something that puzzled me for a long time. I think the audio world has a fetish for sharp points! Mostly, they are not doing what we think they are doing. But points help on uneven surfaces --- and all surfaces can be a bit uneven.
You got a result! you must have done right
We can't see the rest of your room in the pics, but it would probably benefit from some absorbent things. You cannot avoid echoes/reflections while there are hard surfaces. Try a carpet/mat between you and the speakers.
I know what you mean about the "tube." My room is also long and thin. What's more, I sit at my desk in an "alcove" opposite the hifi --- there is a real boom/ring at certain frequencies. Thus, my favourite listening at the desk is ...headphones!
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Is easy to forget the obvious and go off on tangents. I Thought I had bypassed the echo induced problem.
Spent a very enjoyable four hours listening to music with a couple of mats on the floor and guest mattress on the wall behind me.
A really huge improvement. In Nightingale there were many nuances I had not quite caught before. Same with many other tracks. The "3dness" of it all is also much better. Stairway .... sounded completely unfamiliar
I can only describe it rather badly - a bit like cursing the .jpgs you have for lack of detail and finding that there were several layers of plastic sheeting over your HD screen and that the images were indeed high res and there was a lot of pixel peeping to be done.
Thanks.
The hassle now is I can listen to music only when there is no one at home ....
ciao
gr
Most listener places their speakers very close to each other thus limiting the sound stage and stereo imaging.......buy speakers according to your room size and not according to your budget.....I have seen hugh floor standing speakers being placed in small rooms and close to each other which is a waste of resource.......
Budget is always a concern. In my opinion, we should always buy things which are in our budget. If we overdo and get into financial problem, we end up hating the things we bought overbudget.
I would rather buy gear which I can afford, in my budget. Then go on setting it up best I can in the given room/environment. That's like making most of the money spent.
I would rather buy gear which I can afford, in my budget. Then go on setting it up best I can in the given room/environment. That's like making most of the money spent.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Delighted to hear your results, sound_cycle, and I think your analogy was very well put.
My own room is a dead loss, I can do little or nothing with it, and so I am choosing the headphone route for quality listening, but I have noticed that when I visit others, I often hear better sound if I sit on the floor rather than on the sofa. I have put this down to the sofa acting as an absorber and preventing my ears getting the echoes from the rear wall. In music auditoria, I have become very sensitive to the side-wall reflections, which really add harshness to sound that probably was not that good to begin with. I sometimes have to wander around to find a place where I can enjoy the music!
The basic stereo triangle should not be forgotten. But nor should it be slavishly followed in asymmetrical rooms: sometimes changing the position or toe-in of just one speaker can correct the sound stage.
My own room is a dead loss, I can do little or nothing with it, and so I am choosing the headphone route for quality listening, but I have noticed that when I visit others, I often hear better sound if I sit on the floor rather than on the sofa. I have put this down to the sofa acting as an absorber and preventing my ears getting the echoes from the rear wall. In music auditoria, I have become very sensitive to the side-wall reflections, which really add harshness to sound that probably was not that good to begin with. I sometimes have to wander around to find a place where I can enjoy the music!
The basic stereo triangle should not be forgotten. But nor should it be slavishly followed in asymmetrical rooms: sometimes changing the position or toe-in of just one speaker can correct the sound stage.
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This white paper on Loudspeakers and Room interaction will tell you that all reflections are not bad and that we should not go overboard with room treatments. For overall spaciousness of the sound room reflections are required to be used to our advantage. The effect of comb filtering appearing at low freq is more of a measurement artifact rather than a true acoustical phenomena and there is no need to spend on expensive rugs, carpets and the trouble to maintain them. Check out http://audioroundtable.com/misc/Loudspeakers_and_Rooms.pdf
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Thanks... a serious article, not for light or quick reading, and I have put it aside for later.
If we "go overboard" with room treatment we would end up with a dead room, which would be entirely unnatural. However, as I have begun to learn about such things, I see and hear clearly the extent to which reflections ruin the music. You can find me wandering around auditoriums seeking the seat where they are relatively absent and I can enjoy the music without the harshness that they add.
Dealing with reflections does matter, and I wish that the designers of public-performance spaces, often no more than general-purpose halls, took this into account.
I also wish that I had a listening room where I could attempt to try these things for myself.
As part of my quest/dream/investigations towards buying good near-field speakers for the desktop, I have been browsing Gearslutz recently. It is notable that the advice to novices, asking which monitors they should buy at various budget levels, is invariably "Treat your room, or whatever you buy will be rubbish," and never "Hey, get something good, position it right and don't worry about the room." The thing here is that this is advice from people who listen to music for a living as well as for pleasure.
And, there's probably not much that can be done about my listening "cupboard," except ...headphones!
If we "go overboard" with room treatment we would end up with a dead room, which would be entirely unnatural. However, as I have begun to learn about such things, I see and hear clearly the extent to which reflections ruin the music. You can find me wandering around auditoriums seeking the seat where they are relatively absent and I can enjoy the music without the harshness that they add.
Dealing with reflections does matter, and I wish that the designers of public-performance spaces, often no more than general-purpose halls, took this into account.
I also wish that I had a listening room where I could attempt to try these things for myself.
As part of my quest/dream/investigations towards buying good near-field speakers for the desktop, I have been browsing Gearslutz recently. It is notable that the advice to novices, asking which monitors they should buy at various budget levels, is invariably "Treat your room, or whatever you buy will be rubbish," and never "Hey, get something good, position it right and don't worry about the room." The thing here is that this is advice from people who listen to music for a living as well as for pleasure.
And, there's probably not much that can be done about my listening "cupboard," except ...headphones!
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In an auditorium most of the sound you hear is reflected sound and only a small portion of the sound will be direct. Its easy to diffuse the sound in an auditorium due the space available but not so easy to achieve that feat at a home even if you use the best of diffusers placed optimally.
Given this scenario its better to use reflections to our advantage and use the optimal Reverberation Time of around 6ms to achieve this. Also we can use omni directional or dipole speakers to prevent beaming of sounds that we hear from a monopole speakers which around 95% of the people use. The radiation pattern in an omin directional / dipole speakers helps to a great extend to reduce the room artifacts and also in maintaining a constant directivity and there by widening the sweet spot area. Not much is talked about radiation pattern , room directivity and listening window. Most measurements talk about Frequency response, Impedance, phase curves and to some extend waterfall plots which are good to know about the speakers themselves.
We have to remember that the speaker is just one component, but when we consider the room aspect it them becomes a speaker system and in such analysis like directivity and radiation pattern plays a more important role than the FR curves. The frequency response will vary a lot based on the radiation pattern of the speakers, Listening window, speaker placement and the amount of treatment the room has. Also the placement of the furniture and the number of people in the room will affect the overall sound stage.
Given this scenario its better to use reflections to our advantage and use the optimal Reverberation Time of around 6ms to achieve this. Also we can use omni directional or dipole speakers to prevent beaming of sounds that we hear from a monopole speakers which around 95% of the people use. The radiation pattern in an omin directional / dipole speakers helps to a great extend to reduce the room artifacts and also in maintaining a constant directivity and there by widening the sweet spot area. Not much is talked about radiation pattern , room directivity and listening window. Most measurements talk about Frequency response, Impedance, phase curves and to some extend waterfall plots which are good to know about the speakers themselves.
We have to remember that the speaker is just one component, but when we consider the room aspect it them becomes a speaker system and in such analysis like directivity and radiation pattern plays a more important role than the FR curves. The frequency response will vary a lot based on the radiation pattern of the speakers, Listening window, speaker placement and the amount of treatment the room has. Also the placement of the furniture and the number of people in the room will affect the overall sound stage.
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