Speakers that Disappear

[Hiten]

What 2chFreak is saying that for good imaging and soundstage precise volume level is important, otherwise at loud volume 'the' imaging will be lost*. Here key is not that the amplifier is playing every detail at loud volume but in a particular room and listening position a proper volume level works best.

* Think of it as multiple instruments playing very close to each other and very near to you. Which hardly is a reality in live performance.
Regards

 

[Dr.Bass]

I think you guys are taking this whole loudness + imaging thing a bit too seriously. In most cases we listen to music at an average volume where things are just comfortable. The disappearing act which we referring here could be discussed within such normal listening environment and would actually make sense that way.

For speakers to completely disappear the first and foremost criteria is for the speakers to be very low in distortion. Most decent audiophile speakers fulfil that criteria so it is possible to achieve the disappearance with most of these speakers. But when the sound waves hit the walls and ceilings of a room and interact with the reflected waves, they are already distorted, and this distortion doesnt allow the speakers to disappear any more. So, this is when moving the speakers away from the walls help big time. If that is not possible then acoustic treatments could be done to achieve a similar effect, just to ensure the sound waves reaching the listener is as less altered as possible. After that the disappearing just happens as a natural stereo phenomenon.

 

[2chFreak]

* Think of it as multiple instruments playing very close to each other and very near to you. Which hardly is a reality in live performance.
Regards

have you ever been or witnessed a western music orchestra performing LIVE ?

STRINGS : 2 hands of Harp, 16 hands of 1st violins, 16 hands of 2nd violins, 12 violas, 10 hands of cellos, 8 double basses,
WOODWINDS : 1 piccolo, 3 flutes, 3 oboes, 3 B-flat clarinets or 2 B-flat clarinets & 1 A Clarinet,
BRASS : 4 French horns, 2 F trumpets, 1 C Trumpet, 1 B-flat Trumpet, 2 Tenor Trombones, 1 Bass Trombone, 1-2 Tubas,
PERCUSSION : 4 hands of more for (Tympani, snare drum, bass drum, cymbals, Tam-tam, Triangles, Glokenspiel, chimes, Tambourine,

Piano or Harpsichord as extra.

Now - are they sitting far apart from one another as you claim ? If so, they'll need a full-sized Football pitch .. :yahoo:

 

[2chFreak]

I think you guys are taking this whole loudness + imaging thing a bit too seriously. In most cases we listen to music at an average volume where things are just comfortable.

Dr Bass, it takes a person to RISE above a certain level to appreciate some of the finer things of life. And what I am discussing or had pointed to happens to be one of such. Owning a fancy list of hardware isn't enuf.

Unless one is deeply involved in music or music making, it is impossible for them to conceptualize and get the jist. And that is precisely what is happening here.

Anyway - enuf said & am not going to elaborate on this further.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

have you ever been or witnessed a western music orchestra performing LIVE ?

Mahler, Symphony of a Thousand --- and that was only a small exaggeration when I saw it. Also his 2nd symphony. Yes, this stuff gets loud --- as loud as live music was ever ever going to get until amplification came along. It is also something in which, apart from certain instruments, maybe brass and woodwinds, one is not going to be able to pinpoint any more accurately than, say, the violins being over-that-a-way, whether one is in the hall, or trying as best one can to reproduce the experience at home.

At the opposite end of that scale: I just came home from a speakerless carnatic concert, which was a delight.

 

[2chFreak]

Mahler, Symphony of a Thousand --- and that was only a small exaggeration when I saw it. Also his 2nd symphony. Yes, this stuff gets loud --- as loud as live music was ever ever going to get until amplification came along. It is also something in which, apart from certain instruments, maybe brass and woodwinds, one is not going to be able to pinpoint any more accurately than, say, the violins being over-that-a-way, whether one is in the hall, or trying as best one can to reproduce the experience at home.

At the opposite end of that scale: I just came home from a speakerless carnatic concert, which was a delight.

Good show.

You'll be at a much better position to understand what am talking abt. I learn piano as a hobbyist at The Trinity College of Music in London and witness live music on a daily basis. We are taught to play at a certain loudness the instrument wherein the tone is fully retained yet you don't overshoot the scale and so on.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I'm afraid that I never took advantage of London for Western classical music, but yes, I've experience it live a few times. Mostly it was Indian music that used to get me off my backside and into the concert halls. But yes, I'm pretty familiar with live music and currently average about two carnatic concerts a week. Unfortunately, that is seldom truly acoustic, and I do believe that live acoustic music is the benchmark.

 

[corElement]

Wow this thread has taken a total detour.

Everyones talking about instruments and orchestra and loudness imaging.

Have you guys ever thought to cross reference your views with other genres like trance house lounge electronic etc? There's no instruments there. Mostly pre-recordings, yet all the holographic imaging and transparency and accuracy still applies.

Chillout guys, music is subjective. As soon as people start assigning strong views to it it's no longer fun.

 

[manoj.p]

On a lighter note, if you want to make the speakers disappear, close your eyes and listen. Our hearing senses goes quite up when our eyes are closed. I have discovered new details, sounds with eyes closed than they were open.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

your views with other genres like trance house lounge electronic etc?

I'd rather talk about music. hyeah:

There was an English conductor, whose name I forget, who was as known for being an outspoken character as he was for music. When asked if he had ever played any Stockhausen, he replied, "No. But I trod in some once."

I jest ... I am, after all, a bit of a Dead-head so no, I don't require all my music to have come from a recognisable acoustic instrument!

But when it comes to electronic music, unless it's a live album and you were there, all bets are off on accuracy, because how could you possibly know? All we can do is make it sound good to us.

 

[2chFreak]

There was an English conductor, whose name I forget, who was as known for being an outspoken character as he was for music. When asked if he had ever played any Stockhausen, he replied, "No. But I trod in some once."

David Parry ?

 

[corElement]

I'd rather talk about music. hyeah:

There was an English conductor, whose name I forget, who was as known for being an outspoken character as he was for music. When asked if he had ever played any Stockhausen, he replied, "No. But I trod in some once."

I jest ... I am, after all, a bit of a Dead-head so no, I don't require all my music to have come from a recognisable acoustic instrument!

But when it comes to electronic music, unless it's a live album and you were there, all bets are off on accuracy, because how could you possibly know? All we can do is make it sound good to us.

And that is exactly where I'm coming from, "What sounds good to us" is all that matters.

Most of the house and lounge tracks I listen to live though at the moment sound great when i come home and hear the same track im like WTF WAS I HEARING OVER THERE IT DIDNT SOUND ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

In such a scenario accuracy goes straight out the window and what matters is how good it sounds.

Imaging becomes a free transforming parameter not limited to established rules. Within that freedom comes the element of surprise.

In such a scenario speakers will also disappear.

I don't know why people restrict themselves and put up more and more and more restrictions and mental blocks.

Open up your minds to dynamic cross references everyone, there's so many things out there beyond established parameters with so much content to discover and appreciate.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

That's a point of view I can probably go with when listening to some of the Dead's weirder stuff, but not so much when I'm having a Mahler session

David Parry ?

Thomas Beecham.

A few of us would have been alive when he died way back in 1961. I was only nine, but I guess I grew up on BBC radio.

 

[Staxxx]

Good show.

You'll be at a much better position to understand what am talking abt. I learn piano as a hobbyist at The Trinity College of Music in London and witness live music on a daily basis. We are taught to play at a certain loudness the instrument wherein the tone is fully retained yet you don't overshoot the scale and so on.

Sorry this is a little OT: Great to hear that you are enjoying the wonderful opportunities for Classical music in London ! I was there for several years and was an avid concert goer and a Friend of the Philharmonia, Covent Garden and Wigmore Hall (where it is difficult to get tickets otherwise). I have also hosted pianists who have come over for competitions etc. So it really is a passion for me. We must meet up if you ever come to Bangalore. Nice to hear from someone with similar tastes.

I have never really come across any great hifi dealers in London proper personally at the level of equipment I was looking at. However, I am sure you have been there a while and have rooted out the good ones.

Wish you could have listened to the disappearing act my Marten Coltranes could do in my London space. Placed a fair distance from the walls (as another poster mentioned helps a lot) and with matching superlative electronics. It's not just disappearing that was important but also to get the separation, heft and timberal accuracy at the same time. Here in Bangalore I have to use a lot of absorbers and diffusors to get close to the same effect. But it is getting there......

 

[Staxxx]

OT: Speakers that Disappear

That's a point of view I can probably go with when listening to some of the Dead's weirder stuff, but not so much when I'm having a Mahler session
Thomas Beecham.

A few of us would have been alive when he died way back in 1961. I was only nine, but I guess I grew up on BBC radio.

Thad: A bit of a Mahler fan myself too. Have the Blu-Rays of Abbado conducting the symphonies. Let's have a listening session sometime !

 

[Hiten]

have you ever been or witnessed a western music orchestra performing LIVE ?

STRINGS : 2 hands of Harp, 16 hands of 1st violins, 16 hands of 2nd violins, 12 violas, 10 hands of cellos, 8 double basses,
WOODWINDS : 1 piccolo, 3 flutes, 3 oboes, 3 B-flat clarinets or 2 B-flat clarinets & 1 A Clarinet,
BRASS : 4 French horns, 2 F trumpets, 1 C Trumpet, 1 B-flat Trumpet, 2 Tenor Trombones, 1 Bass Trombone, 1-2 Tubas,
PERCUSSION : 4 hands of more for (Tympani, snare drum, bass drum, cymbals, Tam-tam, Triangles, Glokenspiel, chimes, Tambourine,

Piano or Harpsichord as extra.

Now - are they sitting far apart from one another as you claim ? If so, they'll need a full-sized Football pitch .. :yahoo:

I have never witnessed western classical music live. But it would be interesting to know how they are recorded/mastered for audio listening in a stereo setup.
Regards

 

[square_wave]

the instruments in my chain are very defined... or as defined as the recording engineer allowed them to... i get extremely good detail, air, and space between each instrument even at low volumes... on increasing volume they just seem more breathtaking... their 'size' does not increase!

This is the hallmark of a well good music system.

 

[square_wave]

Let me Try again ..


Consider 3 artists playing on a stage, Sax on the Left, Guitar in the Centre & Piano on the Right.

When you set the listening level intensity correctly, you will see the images as below :

Now, if you GROSSLY set the intensity waaaayyy too Loud, each of the instrument's image will start to overlap over one another, smearing the sharp image and diluting the overall image clarity as below :

I think I get what you are trying to say

But this perception of greater size is mostly due to smearing of images due to various reflections. This smearing gets more intense when you increase loudness. You can see that this phenomenon is not very evident if you play a music system at various volume levels in a professionally treated room. If you play your music in an open ground, this will be almost non-existent. The intensity and loudness of each instrument will increase but the size of the instrument will remain the same.

 

[square_wave]

I have very little expertise to comment on this phenomenon "technically" however I have done a lot of work on getting this in my room at different locations and on different speakers.

My take away was simple. Given that both speakers of a stereo pair are closely matched and are placed equidistant from the listener the only factor that decides the disappearing act is how sensitive is it to the room acoustics. For example:

1. Arrest all the reflections using some acoustic material on the walls, floor and ceiling, the speaker disappears. What happens to music thereafter, we will discuss later.

2. Place the speaker far away from the walls, the speaker mostly disappears. The disappearing improves if the ceiling is higher and the floor is carpeted. Basically the speaker is away from all room boundaries.

3. There are speakers which are designed to be closer to the walls, they use the walls to achieve the desired frequency response, they easily disappear.

In my room, the speaker which disappeared most obviously was a Rs.45k Dynaudio Audience 52. It was paired with a cheap Nad 321 CDP and a decent Plinius amp. No other speaker could achieve such effortless disappearing since then, even though other speakers were much better engineered. With the 52 it just didnt matter where in the room is it kept, or whether the toe in is similar between the two speakers or whether the listener is equidistant. When I am in the center the image is more precise, thats about it. The speaker was so designed that it has minimal interaction with the room.

I have heard more precise imaging and disappearing acts in other systems and I have tried to analyse those systems whenever I could. Invariably it was one of the three factors I have listed above. As an experiment please try to put the speaker grills on and listen, possibly the disappearing act would improve (only because the wave form is a little more diffused and hence reflections are less sharp).

I agree. This is the basic explanation for stereo imaging . But then you go beyond into the realm of integrity of those images. Believable sound staging fall into this category. To me that is achieved only by extremely well designed loudspeakers. Expense is not what decides this. However, a single driver full range can do this better than a multi $$$$$ loudspeaker although with limited freq response.

 

[jls001]

I want a pair of such fabled disappearing speakers too

Let us also not forget the source material. Most small ensemble jazz (trios and quartets, especially) are recorded in such a way that an instrument, say drums, go into only one channel. And during playback you will hear them only from that channel.
Example: Dave Brubeck's Take Five where the cymbal is recorded only on one channel.

Or Friday Night in San Francisco by Al di Meola, John McLaughlin and Paco de Lucia, where each of the three guitarists occupy the left, right or center channel.

When one plays such recordings, you will always be reminded that there are left anmd right speakers. Whether your rig can fool you into beiieving that the voice on the left or right speaker has moved away beyond the bounds of that particular speaker, is another matter.