Speakers that Disappear

[john_k_antony]

The only experience I had with speaker disappearing act is when I listened to Zu Definitions MK IV at my boss's place. He didn't have any room treatment, but had cathedral ceiling and wooden flooring. Source was vinyl and amp was 300B based SET.

John.

 

[Staxxx]

I have this experience in my listening room. Pl see iaudios posting "kuruvilajacob's vinyl heaven" . It is a combination of good speakers, speaker placement,structure of room, diffusing unwanted sound,room treatment, placing traps at reflection points ,a good amp and good source of music. I have seen it done in most unfriendly rooms with proper treatment and speaker placements. Just expensive speakers will not deliver this experience


kuruvilajacob

+1 This is exactly right. To keep in mind of course that one can also over-damp a room.

 

[gobble]

My fostex based speakers costing around 31K INR disappear nicely. I purchased this speaker for that quality onlee. Well not entirely but to a major extent it mattered. The other qualities I selected it for are absence of audible cabinet resonances and rich mid range.

So you dont have to spend $$$$ to find speakers like these.
PS: If you give me the keys to your room I can make your speakers disappear too

--G0bble

 

[musicbee]

I have had this experience with highly treated rooms (or treated with software). One example I still remember (and hear in my head) is Emerald Physics with a Spatial Computer... truly memorable.

Another experience was with a pair of tiny (comparatively) Harbeth speakers. Could not believe the beautiful sound coming from something so small... they were extremely revealing and pretty loud too.

Also, especially Magico speakers... truly silent with nothing other than the music. No sound/resonance from the cabinet or background.

But personally (in my home where I don't have a really high end setup) the speakers often disappear when great music is being played. SRV, CCR, Jimi Hendrix, Mark Knopfler, Ilayaraja, etc. all have this effect on me where everything disappears.

 

[2chFreak]

Speakers which have this capability bring believability into the presentation. For example, if you play a solo piano, you can actually see the piano in its depth and width sitting in the room at a certain angle. The size and body of the notes will be true and believable. There will be certain rightness in the flow of the music. Phase and time coherency plays a big role in this phenomenon. Extremely good mechanical design and quality of drivers and crossover design plays a big role. To me, this is an extremely desirable quality in a loudspeaker.

+1 ..

For a true believable experience, correct proportions will have to be maintained, i.e. a piano must have the correct width, depth & height just like a 9 Ft Grand Piano. It must look and sound like a 9 Ft piano and NOT smaller like a guitar or larger like the entire Front wall.

Setting the volume levels correctly also makes a big factor b'coz essentially it acts as the magnification factor of the instrument. Go louder and image size will be larger and go softer it would scale down.

The speakers by and large also needs to be very inert with excellent damping characteristics, correctly designed crossovers so that phase behavior is intact while the tone should resemble instruments correctly with proper pitch definition & decay characteristics.

And indeed, the speakers should totally disappear, leaving you a wide, deep soundstage to gaze into with artists, instruments at correct eye level height.

But for this to happen, the speakers play an important crucial role with all the support from the downstream components esp. the source. Everything must be critically matched with a hand-in-glove handshake and you'll be blessed.

And such happen with just a few audiophiles who's crazy quest for perfection pushes the envelope to attain this sort of an experience.

 

[Nikhil]

I have had this experience with highly treated rooms (or treated with software). One example I still remember (and hear in my head) is Emerald Physics with a Spatial Computer... truly memorable.

I've been thinking about the Spatial Computer but do not have a Mac setup so its on the back burner. Do you still have the Emerald Physics setup with Spatial treatment? At least I remember you mentioning it somewhere. If you do I would like to have a listen!

 

[Nikhil]

+1 ..

Setting the volume levels correctly also makes a big factor b'coz essentially it acts as the magnification factor of the instrument. Go louder and image size will be larger and go softer it would scale down.

Now that is something new!!!

 

[Nikhil]

PS: If you give me the keys to your room I can make your speakers disappear too

--G0bble

Not likely. You will meet the fellow with best ears in the house!! hyeah:

 

[2chFreak]

Now that is something new!!!

Try this out:

Take a solo guitar musical track. Hoping your speakers have enuf grunt and your amp has a good headroom, start with the volume from SOFT.

Increase it and you'll see that guitar in the Center of the stage on your front wall. And then, keep increasing the volume UP till that centrally placed guitar in the middle now stretches all over from the left speaker to the right one. What have you done ? Just MAGNIFIED IT. Bring it down till again its a guitar of correct size located in the center. And you've set the volume now correctly.

 

[gobble]

Not likely. You will meet the fellow with best ears in the house!! hyeah:

Oops! You need a dog that disappears too...

Try this out:

Take a solo guitar musical track. Hoping your speakers have enuf grunt and your amp has a good headroom, start with the volume from SOFT.

Increase it and you'll see that guitar in the Center of the stage on your front wall. And then, keep increasing the volume UP till that centrally placed guitar in the middle now stretches all over from the left speaker to the right one. What have you done ? Just MAGNIFIED IT. Bring it down till again its a guitar of correct size located in the center. And you've set the volume now correctly.

Utter nonsense. Nothing like that happens...

Sent from mobile on a crappy keyboard. Pls excuse typos.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

If I listen to a solo voice on my entry-level M-Audio monitors, and the voice appears to come from a point in-between the speakers, and definately not from either speaker --- I have, at fairly low cost, achieved speaker invisibility! And, of course, it happens regularly

That is just stereo imaging, and it's simple: all-other-things-being-equal, if the voice is coming at us with equal volume from each speaker, it will appear to be in the middle. Possibly, with an effort of will, one can overcome the illusion, but it is not easy, because stereo simply takes advantage of how our ears work.

The illusion of stereo is amazingly simple ...and amazingly wonderful. None of us would be on this forum without it.

So I would say that the speakers disappear in almost any stereo system that is wired correctly and not absolutely crippled by speaker position and other room elements.

But the existence of the stereo image (illusion) is only the first element. How does that single voice sound? Does it sound like a voice? Or does it sound like a voice coming out of speakers? If an audience member coughs, do we look around the room to see who it was? Or do we simply place it in the stereo image. If we look around the room, then I guess we can say that the speakers, in fact, the whole system has disappeared.

 

[2chFreak]

If an audience member coughs, do we look around the room to see who it was? Or do we simply place it in the stereo image. If we look around the room, then I guess we can say that the speakers, in fact, the whole system has disappeared.

+1 .. perfect .. :clapping:

And it happens too .. on LIVE recordings played back.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

And it happens too ..

Oh yes. Experienced recently when hearing one of my own CDs as never heard before: courtesy of DrBass

 

[malvai]

Try this out:

Take a solo guitar musical track. Hoping your speakers have enuf grunt and your amp has a good headroom, start with the volume from SOFT.

Increase it and you'll see that guitar in the Center of the stage on your front wall. And then, keep increasing the volume UP till that centrally placed guitar in the middle now stretches all over from the left speaker to the right one. What have you done ? Just MAGNIFIED IT. Bring it down till again its a guitar of correct size located in the center. And you've set the volume now correctly.

I never knew that the 'size' of the instrument will increase when you raise the volume. . .

Awesome! What kind if amp are we talking about?

 

[malvai]

The illusion of stereo is amazingly simple ...and amazingly wonderful. None of us would be on this forum without it.

So I would say that the speakers disappear in almost any stereo system that is wired correctly and not absolutely crippled by speaker position and other room elements.

But the existence of the stereo image (illusion) is only the first element. How does that single voice sound? Does it sound like a voice? Or does it sound like a voice coming out of speakers? If an audience member coughs, do we look around the room to see who it was? Or do we simply place it in the stereo image. If we look around the room, then I guess we can say that the speakers, in fact, the whole system has disappeared.

absolutely spot on! I have seen quite a number of speakers do this. they have to be paired well with the rest of the chain and set up fairly well in the room for this to happen...

Now, the level of detail, PRAT, timing, etc depends on how good the speakers are how good the rest of the chain is!

 

[square_wave]

I never knew that the 'size' of the instrument will increase when you raise the volume. . .

Awesome! What kind if amp are we talking about?

Agree...I too have never heard this phenomenon. When the volume is increased, the intensity or loudness increases keeping the size of the image same.

 

[Staxxx]

Perhaps the poster meant that as the loudness goes beyond a certain point the perception is of a bigger instrument. But in general, of course, it is not the case. However, I must say, I have heard systems where a single cello can sound 10 feet tall !! Almost the reverse problem

 

[musicbee]

I've been thinking about the Spatial Computer but do not have a Mac setup so its on the back burner. Do you still have the Emerald Physics setup with Spatial treatment? At least I remember you mentioning it somewhere. If you do I would like to have a listen!

Our FM Sameer has it. PM him and visit for an audition.

I don't have it... just fortunate to have auditioned it.

My setup is more modest.... KEF + Marantz + M1DAC + Asus Xonar with a PC based setup. But nevertheless everything disappears when great music is on.

 

[musicbee]

So I would say that the speakers disappear in almost any stereo system that is wired correctly and not absolutely crippled by speaker position and other room elements.

This has been my experience too... and the cost of the speakers does not have much to do with it. More important are room acoustics and speaker placement. Most people don't play enough with speaker placement i.e. move them around till they begin to sound different/better. I am fortunate to have a geeky friend with such knowledge and I've learned from him how speaker placement has an affect on imaging, depth and even sound perception... and with the right placement and provided room acoustics are not a hindrance most speakers will disappear with the right placement.

 

[square_wave]

A perfectly positioned bad speaker in a good room will throw images which can be a harbinger of many days of headaches. I have seen this phenomenon many times.

Such speakers will make your brain work overtime to assimilate information.