Starting on a room treatment journey....(or not)

[essrand]

I just bought a new house, and getting interior done. Prime time for me to incorporate some room treatment (or so I think), as well redo electrical (separate topic for another day).
I know next to nothing of this topic, I have in the past only treated first reflection points with a generous helping of cushions or pillows piled on each other and it has helped reduce the harshness.
I have a largish room with 15 foot ceilings, and 24 feet in length and 18 feet in depth. It opens up to another room as well (see attached pic).

I am wondering how best to do start the room treatment process. I started by consulting Aural Exchange and they (only) recommended ceiling treatment with panels, no first reflection on walls or corner or back wall diffusors!!

Should I start by doing an REW software thing, or find a new sound guy, or just put some treatment at the corners, sidewalls, and back wall and hope for the best. How have fellow forum members tackled this complex task?

P.S in the attached floor plan (the family room is the music room)

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I just bought a new house, and getting interior done. Prime time for me to incorporate some room treatment (or so I think), as well redo electrical (separate topic for another day).
I know next to nothing of this topic, I have in the past only treated first reflection points with a generous helping of cushions or pillows piled on each other and it has helped reduce the harshness.
I have a largish room with 15 foot ceilings, and 24 feet in length and 18 feet in depth. It opens up to another room as well (see attached pic).

I am wondering how best to do start the room treatment process. I started by consulting Aural Exchange and they (only) recommended ceiling treatment with panels, no first reflection on walls or corner or back wall diffusors!!

Should I start by doing an REW software thing, or find a new sound guy, or just put some treatment at the corners, sidewalls, and back wall and hope for the best. How have fellow forum members tackled this complex task?

P.S in the attached floor plan (the family room is the music room)

Iam an advocate of room treatment, having sampled the results first hand. Having said that, you have a really large room, so treating the same, will be quite an exercise. Not to mention the expense. Thus, I think an alternate approach might be more suitable. Instead of bass traps to treat the low frequencies, you could consider a multi sub approach to get even bass without booming bass modes. And multi subs actually can work over a wider listening area. Then you only have to treat first reflection points. Since the room is huge, there can be adequate spacing between the speakers. I guess you will have a large sound stage. So diffusion is not required to make it sound bigger still. In my opinion, you can get very good results with absorption at first reflection points.

 

[essrand]

Hmmmm… by multi sub approach, do you mean adding sub speakers?

Do you like diffusers or absorption in first reflection points?

 

[aeroash]

You should follow Aural's advice. Your high ceilings are a perfect recipe for severe echoes. Just get the ceilings done for now, because it's the most obvious pain point. Rest should be done only after you've set up your audio system, and fully furnished your room. See what is lacking and treat it accordingly, or else it could not only end up being an expensive mistake, but also kill the dynamics.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Hmmmm… by multi sub approach, do you mean adding sub speakers?

Do you like diffusers or absorption in first reflection points?

I was referring to the addition of multiple sub woofers. A minimum of 2 to start with.

As regards diffusion vs absorption. I would add diffusion if the ear to diffuser distance is atleast 10 feet at a minimum. Anything lesser, then I would prefer absorption. I've heard a room with a close to 1 crore system, with an entire back wall , full of expensive quadratic diffusers, 6 feet behind listening position, and it sounded horrendous.

Besides, diffusion needs a larger area to work with. If you add a 2x4 feet absorber at one first reflection point. Then it will take atleast two 2x4 feet diffusers to work at the same place. Besides, diffusers only work from upper mid frequencies, depending on their depth. So my personal preference is a 4 inch broad band absorber with a diffusing scatter plate mounted on top at first reflection points.

 

[arj]

15x24 is a pretty big room and follow the principles of speaker placements and you should be fine as your speaker placement and seating position can actually follow the 1/3rds rule or golden ratio ! ie plan to have maybe 5-8 feet behind the front plane of your speakers and behind your head. you will need to anyway leave more space to the sides so 5 feet from the inside sides of the your speakers to the side walls

Are your ceilings sloped or regular ? that is perhaps one area where you can plan for diffusers ( eg terracota tiles) as long as they look aesthetic to break up direct reflection if any

As a confession I do believe that no treatment is the best treatment unless you hear some something specific which cannot be solved via placement since in most cases i see it taking away something much more than what you are trying to solve for

 

[sandeepmohan]

How have fellow forum members tackled this complex task?

I'd start by getting into the house first.
Its almost impossible to do or judge the amount of treatment to do without knowing what equipment and furniture will occupy the room. Place thick rugs, a couch with a lot of foam and you've already done some treatment.

The issues (if any) with the room can be tackled only after spending time in a space.
24 feet is absolutely massive. Do you care to get the sound right for half this area or do you need it all to sound right, or, do you care about only the place you will occupy on the sofa or couch.

 

[arj]

Perhaps more important than the treatment, a dedicated power line/phase to the music room may give you a better impact.. with options to conceal the power/speaker cables

 

[essrand]

Perhaps more important than the treatment, a dedicated power line/phase to the music room may give you a better impact.. with options to conceal the power/speaker cables

Really? I thought room was the most important component of any system.

Dedicated power line seems to be okayed. Dedicated phase, is that worth it, since then all the ACs and orher lights/fan will have only two phases to work with.

 

[arj]

Really? I thought room was the most important component of any system.

Dedicated power line seems to be okayed. Dedicated phase, is that worth it, since then all the ACs and orher lights/fan will have only two phases to work with.

Of course .the Right Room ,the right speaker for that room and the right amplification for that speaker and I assume you got all of that right.

Dedication line from your switchboard is good if you already have it.

 

[ramuk_su]

It appears you have reached stage - 6, only a matter of time till someone suggests setting up your own power source :

Congrats on the new home and may it always sound mellifluous.

 

[kratu]

Really? I thought room was the most important component of any system.

Dedicated power line seems to be okayed. Dedicated phase, is that worth it, since then all the ACs and orher lights/fan will have only two phases to work with.

A dedicated phase might not make a major difference than a dedicated line. I've drawn a dedicated phase primarily for audio and tested with a line EMI meter. The only advantage is that switching on any other noise-inducing equipment doesn't affect the audio. More problematic are certain power-management systems like UPS which add their own noise.

Room treatment makes a significant improvement. I'd start there first.

 

[jenson]

I am wondering how best to do start the room treatment process. I started by consulting Aural Exchange and they (only) recommended ceiling treatment with panels, no first reflection on walls or corner or back wall diffusors!!

This sound like a great approach, this alongside what arj has already mentioned will give Great results

 

[essrand]

A dedicated phase might not make a major difference than a dedicated line. I've drawn a dedicated phase primarily for audio and tested with a line EMI meter. The only advantage is that switching on any other noise-inducing equipment doesn't affect the audio. More problematic are certain power-management systems like UPS which add their own noise.

Room treatment makes a significant improvement. I'd start there first.

Goa has really shitty power grids so online UPS might be a must, or at least a servo stabiliser. Any thoughts on online UPS vs servo stabiliser?

This sound like a great approach, this alongside what arj has already mentioned will give Great results

With great difficulty, I managed to grab a copy of "Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith. He recommends the same, so perhaps Aural exchange was not off the mark.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Perhaps more important than the treatment, a dedicated power line/phase to the music room may give you a better impact

@arj, i believe in your wisdom, so I don’t doubt this. But I wonder what happens to all the impurities the power line picks up till it reaches our homes? Wouldn’t that be much more than those added by the electric equipment in our home? Or is it that the impurities diminish (if so, how) with distance travelled by the power and hence the impurities closest to the audio equipment‘s plug affect the sound much more?

 

[jenson]

@arj, i believe in your wisdom, so I don’t doubt this. But I wonder what happens to all the impurities the power line picks up till it reaches our homes? Wouldn’t that be much more than those added by the electric equipment in our home? Or is it that the impurities diminish (if so, how) with distance travelled by the power and hence the impurities closest to the audio equipment‘s plug affect the sound much more?

While arj will articulate it better... I feel impurities in case of power is not like we have in case of water... These devices, when they say clean, only regulates or filter, power by running them through isolated transformers/circuits, end result is cleaner and more consistent power.... I think it's akin to filters used to power turntables.

Pardon my ignorance if at all... Can't articulate like Mr. Bhangui Or Arj

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

With great difficulty, I managed to grab a copy of "Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith. He recommends the same, so perhaps Aural exchange was not off the mark.

Since you have a independent house. I would recommend running a dedicated power line to your room. Make that two if possible. One 13A line can be used for lighting and AC. All smps based stuff like chargers and routers can be plugged into the same.

The second 20A dedicated line, can be used through a 10KV CVT + 10KV ultra isolation transformer. Both the CVT and isolation transformer need to be housed outside the house ( they hum audibly ). This will give you very pure and safe power. You can run the audio components on this line. If you can get hold of sheilded power cables like the Puritan ones or get them made locally in india, then you will essentially be blocking any EMI / RF from getting into the power line of the components. Though there will still be EMI radiated by the equipment itself. If you use all balanced connections, then even this locally generated EMI will be filtered out. I avoid having a router in my listening room for the same reason.

If you have a projector, then you can get an online UPS for the same, running off the 13A general service line. Just to enable proper cooling of the lamp before shutting down the projector.

I don't remember who, but one FM had a dedicated solar powered system with storage batteries for his hifi system, but he had a separate room just for the electric components and batteries.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Any kind of power treatment like a power conditioner, Stabilizer, surge suppressor, shielded power cable or even a simple x1,, x2 or Y1 capacitive filters etc completely collapse my sound stage. Thankfully at my location we don't suffer from poor power quality. Adding something like an UPS will increase impedance of the line and might aid further compression. What has always worked for me quite well is direct plugging to wall outlet.

Further, related to room treatment- don't require any room treatment either as I have the option of designing my speakers for my room. Also OB loading don't require much room treatment either. If you overdo with plenty of absorption etc you risk loosing energy from music. I belive in equal 33% reflective, diffusive and absorption coefficient as much as possible. Hence a standard room furnishing like a sofa or curtains are good enough. For diffusion, I have added a parabolic diffuser in my first reflection spot. Rest of the room artefacts assist in some kind of diffusion (hopefully). Rest everything is reflective. This combo works well for me.

 

[arj]

@arj, But I wonder what happens to all the impurities the power line picks up till it reaches our homes? Wouldn’t that be much more than those added by the electric equipment in our home? Or is it that the impurities diminish (if so, how) with distance travelled by the power and hence the impurities closest to the audio equipment‘s plug affect the sound much more?

Let me try and put in my understanding of this
Every distribution/stepdown stage with a transformer would remove a lot of impurities but this is not what is important since all power related gremlins do not come from the generation but from the equipment consuming it, if you look at a distribution network all circuits are limited to a local area and each isolated by a stepdown transformer. Furthermore this is where the topology changes from a Delta to a star hence the ground also is clean. ( I think it was the Shunyata guy who had said it well that you should theoretically look at your equipment as the beginning of the power and not the end)

In the end you are only looking at a circuit from your nearest distribution box to you and if you are in an apt complex means the loop is in that apt. This also means the "impurity" in your circuit are those actually flowing back from equipment in that circuit eg household equipment/lighting etc etc are all within that complex and the do not go to the distribution lines at all.

In your own home it means those from your computers/smps/Washing machines etc etc...the worst being LED lamps.

Now most of these gremlins being high frequency dont travel too long in the circuit before they attenuate and reduce in effect so the ones in the circuit in your own home are the one which cause the most effect. So if you do manage to get a direct line from your building mains to your equipment you are not impacted much by any of these in your home and although theoretically exposed to all from the building, most of which would have dissipated hence you get a cleaner line than in your own home.

@prem and @bhagwan are the only one I know who have the above in this forum. I have a partially dedicated line from my Mains box .

I do believe the quality of power is far better in Mumbai than any other city so the same equipment will sound truer in mumbai than in say Bangalore where the power sucks ..just like the roads and telecom.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Every distribution/stepdown stage with a transformer would remove a lot of impurities

This also means the "impurity" in your circuit are those actually flowing back from equipment in that circuit

Thanks! Clear now.