The beauty of space and time

[murali]

Being away (most of the time) for almost 15 months now from my system and the increasing hunger to listen to music (the second most important thing after my family I miss), I finally decided to take a plunge into a so-called micro hifi system. I scouted around for a while, looked at and listended to the offerings from Bose (Wavesound), Harman Kardon, Nakamichi (Soundspace), Yamaha, Sony, and several others. In line with modern technology, I had narrowed down to a system with tuner, CD/MP3 player, USB and i-Pod dock. None of them sounded convincing and left with no choice, I decided to go for a value-for-money system, a JVC UX-LP5. It is less than half the price of Bose and Harman Kardon with similar features. Initially it was painful listening to these with the music just "sound" but am getting used to it.

What is really missing is the concept of space in the music as well as the timing and phase coherence I am used to. It is absolutely two-dimensional (more of point source!), flat and absolutely no feeling of a 3-dimensional space and awful timing anomalies among the various notes. It suddenly makes you realise how beautiful the same music sounds when listended in a decent system, how thrilling when you feel the soundstage, resolution, and things like that. You have to really feel it to understand what you miss.

Budding audio lovers, you will realise these when you are able to listen to good and mediocre systems. I am posting this because often I see people asking for advice regarding cheap and mass market stuffs to buy but believe me, you are wasting your money and time. If this makes at least one person think before he leaps into the bandwagon, my job done.

Thanks and cheers.
murali

 

[corElement]

I guess one could refer to it as hifi puberty most people are prepubehifi ( newbies ), many in hifipuberty right now such as spiro/myself/many others in this forum and many who are post hifipuberty like audio enr / cranky / venk / you etc

pun intended

 

[arj]

murali, no thoughts of getting into a good Headphone rig ?
If you can get used to it, it is far better than these...

 

[murali]

murali, no thoughts of getting into a good Headphone rig ?
If you can get used to it, it is far better than these...

Thanks. Any recommendations? It should be certainly better than these stuffs, I believe.

cheers.
murali

 

[murali]

I guess one could refer to it as hifi puberty most people are prepubehifi ( newbies ), many in hifipuberty right now such as spiro/myself/many others in this forum and many who are post hifipuberty like audio enr / cranky / venk / you etc

pun intended

True. It is like watching 20-20 for people like us groomed in 5-day cricket. I cannot sit more than 10-15 minutes in front of the 20-20 bang bang, honestly. I would rather watch a baseball match. I hope there are others in my league. Are we anachronistic? Too old? Snobbish? Or, plain stupid?

cheers.
murali

 

[suri]

Thanks. Any recommendations? It should be certainly better than these stuffs, I believe.

cheers.
murali

hi murali,

good/high end headphone systems are superlative - and will rival high-end (loudspeaker) audio systems - there are no room effects - lots of people end up being addicted and lose interest in their mid-fi systems - and unless you have a truly high-end loudspeaker audio system, many high-end headphone systems can be embarrassingly good!

 

[ajinkya]

Suri,

That is very true. But the downside to headphones is constant, direct sound impinging on the eardrums. Not good for longterm hearing. In fact, many doctors recommend minimising headphone use. Call centre folk suffer from hearing problems because of daily exposure to such things. That is why I decided not to go that route, even though sound and budget-wise, it can make a very enjoyable listening experience.

-Jinx.

 

[Rajiv]

I am posting this because often I see people asking for advice regarding cheap and mass market stuffs to buy but believe me, you are wasting your money and time. If this makes at least one person think before he leaps into the bandwagon, my job done.

Hi,

Unfortunately many do not have the financial wherewithal to afford the 'better" systems,but would love to hear music in their homes.

The purpose of forums such as these is for members to try and help others attain the best possible sound within their means.

If someone says that I have X amount of money to spend on a music/HT system and I am considering Y mass market product,it is not the done thing to say dont waste your money, wait and buy something better when you can afford it.This is the attitude that has literally killed the HIFI market.

I agree that comercial mass market stuff may not meet with the lofty "standards" of the audiophile cognoscenti but If senior member of this forum do not share their experience/knowledge however mundane then the purpose and scope of this forum is defeated.

By not discouraging a member who asks for advice on mass market stuff but helping him in getting the best possible sound within his means we will only be sowing the desire within him to improve the system when his finances improve.

One of the reasons reason for the slow death which we are witnessing in the in the HIFI industry is because of the snooty attitude of many dealers and Audiophiles.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[murali]

hi murali,

good/high end headphone systems are superlative - and will rival high-end (loudspeaker) audio systems - there are no room effects - lots of people end up being addicted and lose interest in their mid-fi systems - and unless you have a truly high-end loudspeaker audio system, many high-end headphone systems can be embarrassingly good!

Thanks, suri. I will explore this avenue.

By the way, last week, to get out of the boredom, I went and saw the Green Zone in a movie theatre and it hits out at you right in the face! Never have I experienced that sort of impact apart from some movies like Saving Private Ryan, Flags of our Fathers, Syriana, to name a few, exposing the savagery of wars and all those lies behind. At least the Americans are coming out with a little more honesty in viewing the world, I guess.

The point I trying to make is with such experience, you don't start looking at camera angles, acting, editing, and all those sorts of stuff to judge a movie. What is important is the impact it has on you. I have nothing against cheap or budget stuffs in audio as long as they are able to deliver the music in all its glory. Audiophile terms become unnecessary to describe the experience as long as the music pleases your ears. May be there are a few hidden gems there, who knows? But what preplexes me is when someone authentically states that, for example, an Oppo DVD player delivers a great performance with CDs and tries to raise it to the higher pedestals of a Theta or Wadia or similar sources. That hurts, doesn't it?

cheers.
murali

 

[arj]

choosing a headphones+amp is like a speaker + amp synergy is very important

Head-Fi.org: Headphones, iPod earphones, portable audio, MP3 players, high-end audio is fantastic forum to try out..and since you are a serious audiophile better do it the right way .

I have Beyerdynamic 990 Open phone (Prefer it over closed ..am a newbie in that area) and prefer a B&O A8 while travelling. (regular earphones never stay i my ear )


but have never got used to headphones the serious way

 

[Rajiv]

But what preplexes me is when someone authentically states that, for example, an Oppo DVD player delivers a great performance with CDs and tries to raise it to the higher pedestals of a Theta or Wadia or similar sources. That hurts, doesn't it?

Hi,

I do not see any reason to feel hurt just because someone says that a mass market player/system is better than a super expensive high end system.


If someone feels that an Oppo or whatever is better than the Wadia so be it,just relax and enjoy your system.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[Asit]

Hi all,

I also tend to think we should no way discourage the newcomer on a budget. I believe a reasonable system on a tight budget can be assembled if one pays some attention to synergy, room, music genre and is patient with the decision making procedure and / or prepared to buy used or go diy (at least for some modding). In many cases a carefully set-up mid level system can beat a high-end system, or at least the difference would be very little.

In addition, I like to say something very strongly. All this is ultimately for music. That goal can never be forgotten. If somebody gives me a choice between excellent music on an entry level system and mediocre music on a truly high-end system, it's a no-brainer for me. Each time I'd go for the entry level system for the good music. And I truly believe even an entry level stereo separate system can be made bearable or even quite reasonable if components are chosen carefully to complement synergy with proper placements etc. After all, enjoyment drawn from good music cannot be measured in any form.

Regards.

 

[Rajiv]

Hi all,

I also tend to think we should no way discourage the newcomer on a budget. I believe a reasonable system on a tight budget can be assembled if one pays some attention to synergy, room, music genre and is patient with the decision making procedure and / or prepared to buy used or go diy (at least for some modding). In many cases a carefully set-up mid level system can beat a high-end system, or at least the difference would be very little.

In addition, I like to say something very strongly. All this is ultimately for music. That goal can never be forgotten. If somebody gives me a choice between excellent music on an entry level system and mediocre music on a truly high-end system, it's a no-brainer for me. Each time I'd go for the entry level system for the good music. And I truly believe even an entry level stereo separate system can be made bearable or even quite reasonable if components are chosen carefully to complement synergy with proper placements etc. After all, enjoyment drawn from good music cannot be measured in any form.

Regards.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Regards
Rajiv

 

[ajinkya]

Hi Asit,

While I agree that music on the system has to be ultimately enjoyed, I do think many of us (at least me) are also fascinated by the electronics and technology that goes behind the reproduction of that music. For example, I find it very interesting to see how the input-output characteristics of tubes vrs transistors that I studied in my engineering days translate to how they sound differently in the real, physical world. I am sure many of the DIY folks also 'do it themselves' in order to better understand the inner workings of the equipment they are creating. So, I think both the music and the technology behind its creation, reproduction are fascinating and passionate for an "audiophile" (though I don't like using that term). Just giving another perspective on our liking for this hobby.

-Ajinkya.

 

[Asit]

Sure, Ajinkya, I agree with you. Human beings are intelligent species and our minds take us to all kinds of intellectual pursuits, no denying there. That's why I do not disagree with what the OP has generally written except the part I wrote about in my previous post. BTW, as you know and have seen me, I seldom write something with a populistic viewpoint and I honestly believe what I have written in my previous post and just hope I have not offended anybody with that.

Regards.

 

[sidvee]

Hi all,

I also tend to think we should no way discourage the newcomer on a budget. I believe a reasonable system on a tight budget can be assembled if one pays some attention to synergy, room, music genre and is patient with the decision making procedure and / or prepared to buy used or go diy (at least for some modding). In many cases a carefully set-up mid level system can beat a high-end system, or at least the difference would be very little.

In addition, I like to say something very strongly. All this is ultimately for music. That goal can never be forgotten. If somebody gives me a choice between excellent music on an entry level system and mediocre music on a truly high-end system, it's a no-brainer for me. Each time I'd go for the entry level system for the good music. And I truly believe even an entry level stereo separate system can be made bearable or even quite reasonable if components are chosen carefully to complement synergy with proper placements etc. After all, enjoyment drawn from good music cannot be measured in any form.

Regards.

Asit - I concur wholeheartedly, I believe that words like mid-fi, hi-fi etc are just marketing terms and the proper way to judge a system is how well it portrays music rather than how much it costs.
Cheers
Sid

 

[santhosh]

Murali, appreciate you good intentions about educating new entrants into the hobby, but I concur with Raghav, Asit and others. There is nothing primarily wrong with Micro Systems, but just in our expectations. After reading your post, I wondered:

a) Whether there was a huge difference between your audition and when you got the system home?
b) If you considered having a "proper" second system which you can sell or carry with you when you move back?
c) Why you chose Micro System when you are used to something better?
IMO, there should never be such a big gap between your first and second system.

Just so that we can relate better, it would also be good if you post what system you are used to listening at your home in India. If you have already mentioned it somewhere, kindly post a link.

 

[venkatcr]

I have nothing against cheap or budget stuffs in audio as long as they are able to deliver the music in all its glory.

I think what is important is to set our expectation levels. Obviously a micro system has limitations, and expecting it to 'deliver music in all it's glory', would be unfair. At the same time, one cannot be expected to sit in front of an ideal system all the time and listen to music.

I have enjoyed music in all kind of systems expecting, of course, systems that distort music or hurt my ears. Actually the max I have heard is in my car which kind of projects the sound and plays it somewhere over my head.

But what preplexes me is when someone authentically states that, for example, an Oppo DVD player delivers a great performance with CDs and tries to raise it to the higher pedestals of a Theta or Wadia or similar sources. That hurts, doesn't it?

After visiting a number of people, I have realised that this happens not only with music and and related equipment but in all walks of life. I have seen people with $200,000 equipment who have no idea what they have, and who don't even use the equipment properly. I have seen such people use the system for music that I will never consider music.

Just yesterday I met a person who has a Cyrus CD Player, a Bryston amp, and B&W 604 speakers all connected with immensely expensive cables. And what are his feelings? - unhappiness and dissatisfaction. The reason? - he has no idea.

At the same time, I have seen people with 500$ equipment who not only use it well, but enjoy it immensely. For me, disturbing their happiness by mentioning 'better' equipment was like intruding on their privacy.

All we can do is to help people get the best equipment possible for a particular budget. At times too much knowledge is also bad. I really envy the non-audiophiles who enjoy what they have. Will we ever stop chasing the utopian best system all our lives?

Cheers

 

[psychotropic]

Like a lot of things in life too much knowledge/experience can be a bad thing.

If you're used to driving BMWs, you'll think that a hyundai car is an undriveable piece of crap. But I've never driven a BMW or even a VW, so I am very happy driving around in my Santro. I genuinely enjoy driving it.

But at the same time, I got myself (breaking bank, paying EMIs) a plasma TV, and now when I watch stuff at my parents place on their 29" CRT it looks too small, and I yearn for the 42" of plasma. But my parents are blissfully happy with it, because it's so much bigger than their old 21" TV.

The moral of the story is that you should pick your passions judiciously and in line with your means getting used to high levels of quality can make you lose the ability to derive happiness from the cheaper stuff. And at the end of the day, all this is about the pursuit of happiness

People will always be there with less means, or less of an obsession with something, and this doesn't mean that they will not be able to derive the same level of happiness that you derive from something expensive, from something that their means and priorities permit them to purchase.

I guess in this way books are the great leveller. I don't think anyone ever claims to derive more pleasure from reading a leatherbound hardback first edition than a tatterred paperback picked up from a second-hand bookstore.

And now I am rambling....and I will stop!

 

[arj]

Guys..lets not get too much carried over this . I guess the murali's opinion was coming in from his frustration of listening to something which is a clear step down in what he was getting as per his expectation from music, thats the way i read it

people do enjoy music out of the cheapest phones as well although that does not mean they do not enjoy music..but if they can afford it they may very well enjoy it a lot more on a "better" system..and it just makes sense to go for the best system one can afford

But as in all things in Life, the Law of Diminishing returns applies and it is important to get ones own Budget/pricepoint right based on financial and other priorities

BTW While i can enjoy music on my midfi system and also on my basic car audio I find TV speakers really are really unbearable !

Venkatcr..completely agree on the below

After visiting a number of people, I have realised that this happens not only with music and and related equipment but in all walks of life. I have seen people with $200,000 equipment who have no idea what they have, and who don't even use the equipment properly. I have seen such people use the system for music that I will never consider music.