The league of (extra)ordinary gentlemen

[srramanujam]

Lastly I trust you realize that even the theory of evolution as produced by Darwin has not been indisputably proven

His latest book "Greatest Show on Earth" is focussed expressly on this proof. I find it even more convincing than Selfish Gene, which is still a hypothesis.

 

[gobble]

I dont dispute that scientists fight among themselves. But the scientific community chooses the option that is more rational and evidence based. Individual egos hardly matter since the next scientific generaiton makes a choice out of logic, not by voice. Such choice is unavailable to millions of believing followers, because the one who speaks has heard from the God.

Giving purpose to one's life is the purpose of religion. Circular logic isnt it. There doesnt need to be a purpose. And once one imputes a purpose to life, and defines his very own, it does keep going around.

I dont think the argument is against religion, it is against blind faith that chooses and exhorts people to ignore overwhelming factual evidence. The reverse of science. Science exhorts people to ignore overwhelming and popular theory if one small counterexample or contradiction were to emerge.

and why should raising this question be supercilious?

Unfortunately that statement is debatable as many times what people are mislead into believing as science and scientific is *not*. Particularly the twisting of research results to suit the agenda of vested interests and the cause of propaganda. It happens on an everyday basis in magazines and periodicals.


Regards

 

[psychotropic]

yes gobble, there are bad apples everywhere, and 'scientists' who do very unscientific things, but then that does not discredit the scientific approach, only the people are doing those unscientific things. To say that undermines the scientific approach is like saying that the fact that the sankaracharya was accused of murder, catholic priests are accused of paedophilia and islamists are accused of terrorism, means that religion is wrong. These are anecdotal points, and have no bearing on the fundamental issue, which is that a truly scientific and rational approach is truth-seeking and functions without a pre-defined agenda and pre-arranged conclusions. And this is the approach that I choose to take to explain how this universe is the way it is, as opposed to the idea that someone sat up there and designed it all.

I also find it hilarious how religious people have no qualms running down L Ron Hubbard and Scientology. There is no material way in which Scientology is different from the other religions, except for the fact that the stories were made up far more recently. Everything else, the exploitation, the emotional blackmail and the enforced dependency are the same.

Unfortunately that statement is debatable as many times what people are mislead into believing as science and scientific is *not*. Particularly the twisting of research results to suit the agenda of vested interests and the cause of propaganda. It happens on an everyday basis in magazines and periodicals.


Regards

 

[Yogesh]

1. I doubt that religion gives purpose to life. It is something humans could have lived without. At best religion is a Painkiller. Believers can live through turmoils of their life considering it as God's will OR suffer through their life in hope of some afterlife reward.

2. scientists might be irrational at a time. But, A scientist wud be a person who is passionate for science. And too much passion for nething harbors irrationality.

3. Religion and Science will be kept at loggerheads by their avante-garde by their irrationality OR too much passion to be open to nething else inspite of the fact that common goal of both is to understand self-existence.

4. IMHO Quest to understand self-existence is futile. To use urdu words it will never have "Manzil", only "Makam". As every subsequent discover comes with question "WHy" and "From Where". As in case of composition of matter, discovery still continues Molecule>Atom>Nutron-Proton-Electron>Now various particles that r building blocks of N-P-E etc. In religious quest also if u find god, Anti-beleiver like me will always ask "From Where does GOD come?"

 

[square_wave]

My point was for the rationalists to understand that as powerful as our sense of reasoning has been and still is, there are still things which it cannot grasp. Where there are things such as that, there are two ways of looking at it.

Agree that there are things that science cannot grasp. This cannot be construed as a limitation of science. Science is a method, an approach, a search for truth unlike religion which claims to have an answer for everything. I think most such answers propounded by religion are basically retrofitted theories to contain the fear of the unknown.

If something is unknown, then let it be unknown ! Let us not retrofit theories. Retrofitted theories does not bring anymore meaning to life than science. They only give you an illusion of meaning. If illusions satisfy, then I have no arguments.

Let us not confuse spiritually meaningful life with blind faith in some manmade religion. They are not necessarily the same

 

[gobble]

As Vivekananda said aptly (paraphrased by me):
"The West are master ship builders. They make ships of great beauty and strength, which can ride many oceans. But...who is steering this great ship in the right direction? That is where we, the East come in. And a well-guided ship, following it's true path is a sight to behold and wonder about..."

-Ajinkya.

Sadly in this case it looks like Swami Vivekananda succumbed to western propaganda as well. European shipbuilding has always been inferior to Asian.
The Chinese had bigger ships and fleets sailing to Africa under Admiral Zheng, centuries before them. The Mongol Chinese fleet that attacked Japan in AD1274 had 2000 ships. Yet you only read about the "great" Spanish armada used against Britain in 1588 - it had a mere 132 ships. It is today a matter of speculation that the Europeans had military advantage in naval warfare esp. artillery from their experience of warfare around Istanbul Turkey etc for a crucial period of a mere 50 years that might have made a difference (with technology adapted from their foes). Many ancient European sources document astonishment at the quality of Chinese built ships and the sheer number of them - that exceeded the number of ships floated in Europe many times over. (Needhams book "Science and China's influence on the world"). The Catalog of Chinese inventions include nautical, navigational propulsion, steering and equipment technologies, hull design ( compartmentalization into watertight sections, pumping mechanisms for bailing water and shipboard fires) etc were typically so much better than western that they were being copied and adapted by all other civilizations. Needham asserts the conclusion that Chinese superiority and mastery of technical aspects of seafaring and seamanship is unavoidable. The Spaniards built ships in the Philippines, maintained them there as well and also hired Filipino sailors to take advantage of their skills.

Moving to India, the Brits built 300 ships in India in the first two decades of the century using the carpentry skills of shipbuilders of Surat and North Kerala and close to a hundred a year for the rest of the century. Indian ships were more durable and of substantial quality for lesser cost that any European made ships - The impact of this was so bad that Amsterdam engaged protectionism measures and prohibited the purchase of larger Indian made ships. Edmund Gosse is quoted as claiming the Indian ships to be the "incomparably the best in the world". Habib Irfan (Indian economic and Social history review 17 no.1 1969) concurs that the unchronicled Indian shipbuilding revolution was in some aspects superior to that of Europe. In human skills of seafaring too Asians held an advantage. Vasco-da-Gama needed an Arab navigator to reach India, since the South-East to Arabia/Africa route was a region of bustling trade and seafaring activity for centuries before the Europeans woke up to this. We all know what happened to Columbus when he set sail to India - he reached America (if you think about it mischeviously, what a bad joke).

Therefore the return of Asia as a Manufacturing hub is only a turn of a wheel over many centuries. If you care to really read the literature that is hidden from your eyes deliberately, you will find that Asia was actually THE hub for superior manufacturing technology and scientific inventiveness for close to a 1000 years. The indications from economic data are very much there. Even on the economic front the Europeans from Venice admitted centuries back that the Gujaratis and Marwaris knew methods and systems of banking more systematic and developed than themselves and learnt from them. Although Venice and Europe is credited with the development of banking. One last example is in metallurgy - Europeans finally managed to smelt iron ore to a quality produced in India a 1000 years before - only in the last century (in Sweden).

I cant help laugh and snort every time people claim why Indians can never learn to manufacture good stuff like the Western civilizations. What you are seeing today is the result of oppressive and damaging economic policies the Brits enforced in in the few centuries they colonized our country. Everyone reads historical accounts of the grandeur of innumerable ancient Indian cities from Pataliputra to Vijayanagara and the craze that everyone to the west of India had to reach India and posses its riches for more than a 1000 years - from its products exhibiting the finest craftsmanship that still adorn European palaces and dwellings and institutions today, to its silver and gold and art and architecture. The next minute people turn their heads away with an "oh thats from Antiquity, whats in the present...". Nobody questions what it takes, what fabric of social structure beliefs attitudes and values it takes to retain this quality of excellence for a few 1000 years or wonders how we can revive them. I will bet that nobody knows - with their 15 years of Anglicized Indian education that the same workers that produced the finest quality of goods cherished in the whole of Asia for their artwork were reduced to malnourished underweight TB and disease ridden factory workers that toiled 16 to 20 hours a day in deplorable conditions, that bred the trade union movement in the last century. The same education that reminds you as an 8 year old school kid about the grandeur of Eiffel tower as a symbol of European excellence is silent about the 80 ton single piece of rock hoisted upon the temple at Tanjore and turned into one of the finest pieces of Indian art. Or that a genocidal mass-murderer like Columbus is celebrated in textbooks as a great explorer rather than be clubbed with Hitler and Stalin and many others.

This repetition of a slogan - that the west is a source of unparalleled excellence and rational thought while the east remained backward morally and scientifically is systematic propaganda.

On a closing note here is a link to Chinese acheivements of interest : List of Chinese inventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Regards

 

[gobble]

yes gobble, there are bad apples everywhere, and 'scientists' who do very unscientific things, but then that does not discredit the scientific approach, only the people are doing those unscientific things. To say that undermines the scientific approach is like saying that the fact that the sankaracharya was accused of murder, catholic priests are accused of paedophilia and islamists are accused of terrorism, means that religion is wrong. These are anecdotal points, and have no bearing on the fundamental issue, which is that a truly scientific and rational approach is truth-seeking and functions without a pre-defined agenda and pre-arranged conclusions. And this is the approach that I choose to take to explain how this universe is the way it is, as opposed to the idea that someone sat up there and designed it all.

I also find it hilarious how religious people have no qualms running down L Ron Hubbard and Scientology. There is no material way in which Scientology is different from the other religions, except for the fact that the stories were made up far more recently. Everything else, the exploitation, the emotional blackmail and the enforced dependency are the same.

Precisely my point which I did not put in so many words. Therefore my caution that be a disbeliever unless you have direct knowledge and experience or something appeals to your reason very strongly.

Cheers

 

[square_wave]

Unfortunately that statement is debatable as many times what people are mislead into believing as science and scientific is *not*. Particularly the twisting of research results to suit the agenda of vested interests and the cause of propaganda. It happens on an everyday basis in magazines and periodicals.


Regards

How is religion any different ?

 

[suri]

Sadly in this case it looks like Swami Vivekananda succumbed to western propaganda as well. European shipbuilding has always been inferior to Asian.

gobble,that made very interesting reading!!

there are many instances of leaders "tailoring" their words to "fit" the audience.

the most popular leaders always tell the audience what they want to hear, and uncover "truths" that gel well with them (Hitler).

Narendra might not have been aware of the native ship-building industry that the british took advantage of, but, then again, he might have been aware, but spoke and told his audience what they wanted to hear

 

[gobble]

gobble,that made very interesting reading!!

there are many instances of leaders "tailoring" their words to "fit" the audience.

the most popular leaders always tell the audience what they want to hear, and uncover "truths" that gel well with them (Hitler).

Narendra might not have been aware of the native ship-building industry that the british took advantage of, but, then again, he might have been aware, but spoke and told his audience what they wanted to hear

Hmm ok thinking again, the Swamiji would have used it in the metaphorical sense.

Anyways revising history and research is one of my primary (and endless) hobbies hence I see an opportunity to talk about it everywhere at times ... hope I did not bore too much.

Regards

 

[gobble]

How is religion any different ?

Well there are many "religious" guidelines and practices that are considered as appropriate in a very specific given context, and when that context is no longer "seen", things begin looking more irrational than they were to begin with. Not to say that religions have evolved a perfect science, but I guess religious thought is to be used as a guide or handrail or direction finder or signboard?

Edit: A confusing one at that ...

Cheers

 

[gobble]

And to respond to Vivekananda's quote, it is the currents and the winds that guide the ships (i presume he is talking about sailing ships, if not it is the steam engines that are guiding them), and this is perfectly explainable by science. Even the people who sailed those ships didn't think those ships were being guided by anything supernatural. I am baffled at what he thought the 'east' was contributing to the winds, the currents, or the steam engine. Let me reiterate I am not disrespecting Vivekananda, just pointing out a rather obvious flaw with his statement.

I have nothing much to contribute to this particular conversation, but I think he meant the hand that holds the steering wheel should be the wise old sage of eastern wisdom. Metaphorically

Cheers

 

[neutral]

@Gobble,
We live in the present. Not in the ancient past. Yesterday is history. Today is reality. Tomorrow is our childrens future.

We as a civilization are only interested in knowing the quality of life which this country can give its people now. The world and its realities that is in store for the children of tomorrow is most important. We are not bothered about some ships that were made eons ago by somebody.
A foreigner friend who was robbed of her handbag was demanded that she pay a bribe to file an FIR in a police station located in the posh locality in the IT capital of India. You need to pay a bribe to file your home tax in the same city.
I can go on about numerous things that affect the normal, honest, hardworking Indians life which makes my head hang in shame. As far as we are concerned, this is Indias culture as of today. Dont even get me started about the achievements we have made in technology and its effective implementation in uplifting the quality of life of an average Indian and his children.

I remember a guy once talking rubbish about the developed west. He was wearing a shoe which is made and designed in Europe, a watch made and designed in Europe, he is working in an industry which works on technology designed and implemented by the west, his food bills, his rent bills are paid by doing this work, the commode he sits on to take a shit is designed in Europe. He drives a car designed in Europe. I can bet he is wearing underwear designed in Europe. I told him to go get a life !

If at all we want to talk about our glorious history and past, it is called HERITAGE STUDY. It is but purely of academic interest. If someone takes inspiration from that and does something great to uplift our present condition and the future of our children, it is commendable

 

[gobble]

@Gobble,
We live in the present. Not in the ancient past. Yesterday is history. Today is reality. Tomorrow is our childrens future.

We as a civilization are only interested in knowing the quality of life which this country can give its people now. The world and its realities that is in store for the children of tomorrow is most important. We are not bothered about some ships that were made eons ago by somebody.
A foreigner friend who was robbed of her handbag was demanded that she pay a bribe to file an FIR in a police station located in the posh locality in the IT capital of India. You need to pay a bribe to file your home tax in the same city.
I can go on about numerous things that affect the normal, honest, hardworking Indians life which makes my head hang in shame. As far as we are concerned, this is Indias culture as of today. Dont even get me started about the achievements we have made in technology and its effective implementation in uplifting the quality of life of an average Indian and his children.

I remember a guy once talking rubbish about the developed west. He was wearing a shoe which is made and designed in Europe, a watch made and designed in Europe, he is working in an industry which works on technology designed and implemented by the west, his food bills, his rent bills are paid by doing this work, the commode he sits on to take a shit is designed in Europe. He drives a car designed in Europe. I can bet he is wearing underwear designed in Europe. I told him to go get a life !

If at all we want to talk about our glorious history and past, it is called HERITAGE STUDY. It is but purely of academic interest. If someone takes inspiration from that and does something great to uplift our present condition and the future of our children, it is commendable

Enjoy your thought system and life ...

Cheers

 

[square_wave]

Well there are many "religious" guidelines and practices that are considered as appropriate in a very specific given context, and when that context is no longer "seen", things begin looking more irrational than they were to begin with. Not to say that religions have evolved a perfect science, but I guess religious thought is to be used as a guide or handrail or direction finder or signboard?

Edit: A confusing one at that ...

Cheers

Context and religious guidelines = Retrofitted theories that gives you an illusion of meaning

 

[psychotropic]

oh come on, i thought this thread was taking yet another interesting turn, and at least i could sit out this segment. all this pacifism is bad for your health

Enjoy your thought system and life ...

Cheers

 

[suri]

oh come on, i thought this thread was taking yet another interesting turn, and at least i could sit out this segment. all this pacifism is bad for your health

no, psychotropic, i think we should let this one go.


if we all pitched in to respond, the moderator might, perhaps, end this interesting thread and ban quite a few of us

 

[gobble]

oh come on, i thought this thread was taking yet another interesting turn, and at least i could sit out this segment. all this pacifism is bad for your health

Hee hee!

Contrarian thinking comes naturally to me. My intent in posting is to inform and shake established ideas. Not bark in return. If somebody wants to develop rashes all over because his psychological props are busted, I have no fix for him. Let him move on ...

Note the point of my post isn't that A is superior to B. That is just for initial startle effect. The truth is that scientific progress has happened in all civilizations in all corners of the world by all kinds of people. No single culture can claim monopoly over it based on perceived cultural superiority.

Cheers

 

[gobble]

Context and religious guidelines = Retrofitted theories that gives you an illusion of meaning

My head is buzzing .... oooh I got a headache! :lol:

 

[psychotropic]

aye aye cap'n

no, psychotropic, i think we should let this one go.


if we all pitched in to respond, the moderator might, perhaps, end this interesting thread and ban quite a few of us