Turning the tide... New Active Speakers

[hemantwaghe]

Bro,

The regular term active speakers are often "used" [sometimes by habit]for studio domain near field listening environment speakers where the room treatment is always present and what you get is almost near to neutral response to monitor the recordings/playback in studio environment.

But when you have home[living room] as your listening environment where the room treatment is often not present you end up with a place having lot of uneven reflections/absorptions which are way different then what you expect in studio and using active monitors in such environment which are meant for near field listening often results in response which is nowhere near to expected.

To treat this the term active system comes under the scenario.

A system which has means of controlling gain of each driver actively placed [having separate active XO + amp for each driver unit outside of speaker]in the environment which ||could be or could be not|| a near field listening area having zero room treatment, in order to assist the response to match closest to neutral reference in the given environment. Virtually such system must contain a default settings to revert on which must be an easy point to reset every thing to factory settings if someone tampers with it.

In this way there is much more to do in active systems, you have much more to explore and suit which you can't do with passives at all.

PS: In passive bi-amp systems you can alter volume of each driver but the passive XO is still sitting in between the amp and driver creating its own coloration because non-linearity in this stage is much more critical.

Here i am not saying you should not try active speakers, but yes if you want to explore and have room for that go for active system as a whole.



I hope this helps...

Thanks...

Kanwar --seems exiciting! any plans of manufacturing at your wors?What will be the total damage/??:clapping::clapping::clapping:hyeah:

 

[kanwar]

Kanwar, I beg to differ from your above explanation of the performance of nearfield monitors in studio enviornments and homes. Before I moved to the UAE, I worked for some years in AR Rahman's studio. I can tell you that nearfield monitors never sound neutral in studios, as they are usually sitting on the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge on stands, so most of what you hear from them is reflected sound off the console. No sensible engineer depends solely on nearfields mounted near the console.

Real proper reference is always from the main monitors mounted against the front wall or flush mounted in the front wall in a half space far away from the console. They are always the main monitoring tools of a good engineer during recording and mixing. The nearfields provide only a decent free space reference for comparison. Nearfield monitors are also used for editing as you dont want them too loud during the process

If great active nearfield monitors like Genelec are properly installed in almost any home and properly calibrated, they sound almost perfect and easily much better than any nearfields can play in the best studios on top of the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge on stands.

Kartik,

I tend to be more clear here.
Its again the matter of mounting them aka placement of studio monitors, if they are mounted over the console tilted towards the mixing desk, you are ought to get reflections, just like you have stated mounting them flush mount to wall is a good practice which i have seen many times in the studio even in home theaters also.

In the below pic, you have speakers flush mounted to wall and no sign of NFM's.......

If great active nearfield monitors like Genelec are properly installed in almost any home and properly calibrated, they sound almost perfect and easily much better than any nearfields can play in the best studios on top of the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge on stands.

Why only Genelac's?
Its again the mounting and the placement which plays a vital role along with room correction or calibration, not just Genelacs, even Meyersound X-10 reference monitor needs calibration. If you say mounting them near to console gives you reflections from it[Which i agree very much here] then it applies on each and every monitor, you can't spare Genelac's here. Any decent active monitor can be installed in home environment when calibrated[room correction].

 

[kanwar]

Thanks...

Kanwar --seems exiciting! any plans of manufacturing at your wors?What will be the total damage/??:clapping::clapping::clapping:hyeah:

Bro, a decent very simple discrete 2-way stereo active system won't cost a fortune.

 

[kanwar]

IMHO, It would be really awesome if someone could provide a starting and upgrade path on how to setup a good active system.
Example: For your first system go for these options in your budget.
Your upgrade path should look like these..

I find a lot more discussion on passive and rather very limited on actives (unfortunately!) I also could not audition good active systems the only systems I have access to are the passive ones in almost all showrooms. For some time I did not even know that something like actives existed and they could be a possible solution! I think passives have been marketed more aggressively to home users than actives. In fact I find hardly any push for actives to home users (understandably from a business sense ) But I guess the eco system currently is that way

Let the best sound sing!

There is not much happening in active systems from home audio manufacturers, but have a look at this :

Lenard Audio

These guys go with laws of physics in raw format..........and i just love it the way they do it. Respect....!!!

 

[Kartik v]

Kartik,

I tend to be more clear here.
Its again the matter of mounting them aka placement of studio monitors, if they are mounted over the console tilted towards the mixing desk, you are ought to get reflections, just like you have stated mounting them flush mount to wall is a good practice which i have seen many times in the studio even in home theaters also.

In the below pic, you have speakers flush mounted to wall and no sign of NFM's.......

Why only Genelac's?
Its again the mounting and the placement which plays a vital role along with room correction or calibration, not just Genelacs, even Meyersound X-10 reference monitor needs calibration. If you say mounting them near to console gives you reflections from it[Which i agree very much here] then it applies on each and every monitor, you can't spare Genelac's here. Any decent active monitor can be installed in home environment when calibrated[room correction].

Hi Kanwar, there seems to be some confusion in your understanding of main monitors and nearfields. Your picture shows main monitors flush mounted in the wall. That shows a proper reference tool for recording / mixing engineers. These main monitors mounted in a half space, at the front wall or in the front wall can be any size small, medium or large, which is determined by the distance from speaker to mix engineer which can be anything from one & half meter to about four meters at max depending on the size of the room. Main monitors see more or less the same distance to the console as to the engineer so the reflected sound at mix position is much less than the direct sound as the reflected sound path is longer and thus looses more intensity over the distance as compared to the direct sound

Nearfield monitors are usually small monitors placed on the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge in a free field. Reason you cannot use large monitors on the meterbridge as a nearfield is because of the longer uneven pressure field from larger drivers as explained by denom in the below post
http://www.hifivision.com/active-speakers/29791-near-field-v-s-far-field-speakers.html
Nearfields are sitting on the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge so most of the sound reflects off the mixing console surface and less direct sound reaches the mix position

It not only Genelecs but all brands that exhibit more or less the same acoustic problems in the given conditions. I mentioned monitors LIKE Genelecs because it has been referred to several times in this thread as a good brand, so it works for me as a reference system for a good technical discussion so we can eliminate a speaker problem when describing the acoustic problems in the given conditions being discussed. Ofcourse you can easily install any decent active loudspeaker monitoring system in any home and be delighted with the results. If installed and calibrated properly its unlikely their performance will fall short of any expectations you described below

But when you have home[living room] as your listening environment where the room treatment is often not present you end up with a place having lot of uneven reflections/absorptions which are way different then what you expect in studio and using active monitors in such environment which are meant for near field listening often results in response which is nowhere near to expected.

I heard you are pretty much a kinda speaker & amp guru yourself. I am sure you already know all this

 

[square_wave]

dont understand why everyone craves for different sound signature. isnt 'neutral' sound signature is best for everyone?

A truly neutral system will dazzle you with the true colors of the music. There will be more contrast between different colors inherent in different music. In fact a neutral system is the bedrock from which musical colours arise.

The reality is that many so called neutral audio gear are not really neutral. They are marketed as neutral.

 

[thevortex]

Some members might have listened to active speakers, but did anyone of them tasted a real active system.? I don't think so......hence making blind assumptions is baseless.

I am drowning in them currently...er tasting them

 

[thevortex]

Am curious...all you Active Speaker gurus...has any one of you heard the studio monitors from Equator Audio? If yes, what do you make of it with respect to some of the other brands being discussed.

I ask this not to ratify my own system (am happy with it, thank you ) but because this system was not exactly a planned purchase and I would love to know how these differ from the other more popularly mentioned brands such as Genelec, Adam etc.

 

[Audioman]

Am curious...all you Active Speaker gurus...has any one of you heard the studio monitors from Equator Audio? If yes, what do you make of it with respect to some of the other brands being discussed.

I ask this not to ratify my own system (am happy with it, thank you ) but because this system was not exactly a planned purchase and I would love to know how these differ from the other more popularly mentioned brands such as Genelec, Adam etc.

Sudhin Prabhakar Proprietor of Pro Musicals Madras is an old friend. He is also supposed to be an advertiser on HiFiVision with an Equator Audio weblink button at the top of this active speaker page so everyone would have seen that Equator Audio button by now and got to know of the brand

The Equator Audio speakers are serious products with DSP and all. Very nice sounding for sure and very different from Genelec, Dynaudio, Adam & Focal

 

[kanwar]

Hi Kanwar, there seems to be some confusion in your understanding of main monitors and nearfields. Your picture shows main monitors flush mounted in the wall. That shows a proper reference tool for recording / mixing engineers. Nearfield monitors are usually small monitors placed on the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge in a free field. Reason you cannot use large monitors on the meterbridge as a nearfield is because of the longer uneven pressure field from larger drivers as explained by denom in the below post

Kartik, Thanxz for clarifying

Confusion was on my part though, i stand corrected thereafter. Though i have seen some studios where there are no near field monitors at all but only flush mounted main monitors.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I think the absence of active, or even powered, speakers in room hifi is a matter of history which has become habit. In hifi, everything is centred around the amplifier, and for the majority of listeners, this is an integrated amplifier, with pre- and power- setups further up the ladder. The amplification is dealt with before the hifi buyer even comes to consider speakers. A pre-amp and actives is not something that would probably even occur to most buyers. It is a long time since I wandered in and out of hifi shops, but, at that time, if I'd seen an active setup I would have wondered what it was! And, I would have already spent my money on an integrated amplifier.

What's changed? People sitting in front of PCs, who want to listen to at-least-half-decent music while they work is what's changed. For a long time, all they had available was the cheap "multi-media" external speakers. As with all things audio, these have come a long way from stuff like the little Sony pair that I still have at the bottom of a box somewhere. The upgrade path from those was very different to what I saw as the upgrade path on the hifi side of the room: it meant powered speakers, and the Mission 2.1 (with some flat technology that I forget the name of) speakers (half-price from Richer Sounds ) made real sound as opposed to the tiny-tinny things they replaced. The Mission system finally croaked to death, so I can't really compare with the M-Audio AV-40s that followed it onto my desk. Powered speakers, not real actives, really entry-level monitors.

When buying the M-Audios (from a studio/musical shop, not a hifi store) I was very much aware of the superior sound of the KRKs I would have loved to have taken home if I had the budget. Since then, names such as Genelec, Adam and others have come into view. Why? because I spend more time sitting in front of a PC with speakers on the desk, just one metre away, than I do sitting in front of the hifi.

(It has also introduced, and converted, me to headphone listening, which is why I dream of, but am not in a great hurry to buy those real active monitors. But that's another story)

Ten years ago, my PC audio, its "monitor" speakers and various analogue and digital connections to the hifi was quite geeky stuff. Today, it is almost mainstream. Tomorrow (or perhaps a couple of days after that ) data files will be the only way music is sold.

It's not many "days" since a hifi without a turntable, and an integrated amp without a phono stage, would have been unthinkable. Now, it may not be long before a hifi without even the amplifier as we have always known it will be perfectly thinkable. More and more people are including the computer as part of the hifi, even if they disguise it in a hifi-style cabinet: it is quite capable of being the central component of a system.

This is not geek look what my PC does stuff any longer, and, already, active speakers are no longer for the geeks. Their historical market place demands a flat frequency response, which might not suit everybody: how long before we get warmed-up actives in rosewood-veneer cabinets, with frequency response graphs drawn by the marketing department? Or has it happened already?

 

[Audioman]

Thad, I agree traditional passive hifi systems are what most people expect they will choose naturally, certainly not a preamplifier + active speakers. But times change and technologies get better. Diesel cars were very unpopular in the old days, but not anymore. The reason HiFiVision launched a separate section for Active Speakers is to showcase an interest for this progressive technology (finally with DSP) which is going to shape the future of the bulk of the high end loudspeaker industry. Its a good opportunity for everyone to spread proper information about its benefits and in turn benefit many forum members interested in spending their hard earned savings on that once in a lifetime purchase to get high value for their money and enjoy superb audio for decades to come. With the home high-end audio source moving towards the progressive computer + soundcard concept, isnt it only natural to feed it into a progressive DSP active loudspeaker concept too that can be controlled by the same computer? Works out quite cost effective too that way.

This is not geek look what my PC does stuff any longer, and, already, active speakers are no longer for the geeks. Their historical market place demands a flat frequency response, which might not suit everybody: how long before we get warmed-up actives in rosewood-veneer cabinets, with frequency response graphs drawn by the marketing department? Or has it happened already?

The high end active loudspeaker industry always sets their targets for neutral sound and flat frequency response. But that does not mean they cant be equalized for any other tone preference if required. Thats what the preamplifier's tone control can do easily. At last years Chennai meet you didnt complain about the neutral sound you heard from the Laptop+Soundcard+DSP active loudspeakers you'll auditioned Infact you looked very pleased during the demo. So why would you expect such high end active loudspeaker manufacturers to ask their marketing department to draw up frequency response graphs for such fine performing equipment?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Who's complaining? I'm all for this kind of technology, and, if I had any just now, I would be delighted to spend my money on it.

So why would you expect such high end active loudspeaker manufacturers to ask their marketing department to draw up frequency response graphs for such fine performing equipment?

Nope. I'd trust companies like Genelec, and others who are selling into the professional market, to go on publishing accurate and verifiable information about their products --- not just because they may be "nice guys," but because they are selling to people who can and will do their own measurements. However, if active speakers really are going to be the next big thing, it is not only those companies who will be selling them....

 

[thevortex]

Sudhin Prabhakar Proprietor of Pro Musicals Madras is an old friend. He is also supposed to be an advertiser on HiFiVision with an Equator Audio weblink button at the top of this active speaker page so everyone would have seen that Equator Audio button by now and got to know of the brand

The Equator Audio speakers are serious products with DSP and all. Very nice sounding for sure and very different from Genelec, Dynaudio, Adam & Focal

Yes, they do sound nice . But I am curious to know if anybody has heard these and compared with the other models mentioned....Anybody?

 

[thevortex]

Just wanted to weigh in and say that with Active speakers you do not even need a pre-amp per se. If you have a quality Sound Card, the analog outs can go directly into the Active speakers. Otherwise you might want to introduce a DAC and take the output of the DAC into the speakers. Personally, with my equipment I prefer the latter. Particularly because my DAC happens to also be a Digital Equalizer.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

with Active speakers you do not even need a pre-amp per se

Indeed. My assumption would be that many of the people here, even if they did (like you!) go Active, would have more than one source and would therefore need something to allow source switching. The definitions and borders get more and more blurred every day: DACS come combined with analogue inputs and even phono amps. "DAC" is thebuzzword of the day: I guess they might have been called something like digital pre-amps. In fact there are such things, I think!

 

[kanwar]

Active doesn't always mean "digital-dac-dsp", we have much higher resolution in pure analog actives in league as well.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Good reminder, Kanwar

 

[magma]

Here i am not saying you should not try active speakers, but yes if you want to explore and have room for that go for active system as a whole.



I hope this helps...

kanwar
Can you please elaborate on this

I have heard a couple actives in my room.

This is a lovely discussion
What one should also consider is that for a person considering actives it's far easier to judge a couple contenders especially when you don't have to worry about the amp and cable matching

It's one on one direct with the other speaker
Life so much simpler !

 

[kanwar]

kanwar
Can you please elaborate on this

I have heard a couple actives in my room.

This is a lovely discussion
What one should also consider is that for a person considering actives it's far easier to judge a couple contenders especially when you don't have to worry about the amp and cable matching

It's one on one direct with the other speaker
Life so much simpler !

Yes, i agree that its very simple to compare a set of active speakers because you don't have to worry about many such variables which are present in normal passive setups.

Having active speakers is one thing but having a complete active system is another thing. Active system is discreet version in which you have control over everything.
For a 2 way pure analog active system[not active speakers here] which comprises of :

1. One pair of speakers having woofer and tweeter in each but without passive XO

2. 4 X mono or 2 X stereo amplifiers for example 2X 100W for LF & 2X 30W for HF.

3. A pure analog active XO unit capable of 2-way distribution of frequencies & each XO unit having a separate control to manage it[gain + EQ controls if required].

This is the bare minimum requirement for a complete simple 2 way active system as a whole. The amount of control exercised with such type of system is massive and you have high rate of tweaking/varying it as per your tastes/room environment. But i always go for maximum transparency.

Having an active system makes the chain immune to artifacts which are introduced by non-linear elements to very large degree where as a passive system is so prone that people become mad to such an extent that they tend to buy for example costly interconnecting cables/power cords/speaker wires which usually results in diminishing returns.