Turntable The next level

[Sidharth Trehan]

Correct Mahi bhai,
Initially they had a capping of USD500 for 10% discount but the GM was generous enuf to offer flat 10percent on any USD250+ orders, when asked to reconsider the minimum billing value for 10pct discount. This helped further and a few members from HifiVision hv placed orders worth USD2000 approx. since Feb in total.

Its a great place for XRCDs as well. Also they care alot for packing and stuff comes out delightfully shining.

Wishes
..

Hi siddharth,
that's very good nws. If we are in vinyl world it seems elusivedisc is simply unavoidable. They have some wonderful things on offer both software and hardware.
Thanks.

 

[mahiruha]

mahiruha,

here's a solution.

using the cinemag with the 150 ohm tap.

R(Load_effective) = (47000 ohms / 150^2) = 2.088 ohms



(Vout / Vcart) = (R(Load_effective) / (R(Load_effective) + (Rcart)))

2.088/(2.088 + 65)= 0.0311

then multiply output voltage at the cartridge by 0.0311 to get voltage output as a function of the load resistor and then again by the turns ratio to see the voltage at the MM input. Or:

1 x 0.0311 = 0.0311mV
0.0311 x 150 = 4.665mV

and that my friend is smack in the middle of acceptable range!!! you're set mahiruha! all calculations as per the SUT page link analogdept

edit: the 4.665 v is what you'll be putting into the mm section of the phonostage so no need of any resistor tuning cables or resistor tweaking inside the amp! cart straight to cinemag on 150 turns setting and the trans is fixed inside the phonoamp so cable length is minimal too

Hi Steven,
sorry you have made mistake in the calculation.The cinemag website stattes
"Note: The 150 Ohm tap and the 37.5 ohm taps are specified by the manufacturer to provide 1:18 and 1:36.5, however 1:16 and 1:30 was measured using a 50 ohm audio signal generator at 1kHz with a 47k output resistance, which approximates the real situation of a moving coil cartridge load using this transformer into a standard RIAA preamplifier"
in your calculation you have confused the step up ratio with the load.
it should be

0.0311*18 = 0.5598 mv which is much less than 2.5 mv the threshhold value.
but I am really confused about the fact how one Calculation on one SUT can yield such contradictory results. If we just take the step up factor to be 18 then I get 1*18 = 18 mv output which is much higher and from your calculation it is coming out to be 0.5598mv which is much lower. Both can't be true so where is the problem in our calculation?
Thanks.

 

[stevieboy]

DISCLAIMER: i am inherently bad at math. why i'm doing this, that too many times over, no idea

now i've got a different figure mahiruha,

12.42. here's how. basically i'm a creative person and rarely do the same thing the same way hyeah:


R(Load_effective) = (47000 ohms / 18^2) = 145.06 ohms

(Vout / Vcart) = (R(Load_effective) / (R(Load_effective) + (Rcart)))

145.06/(145.06 + 65)= 0.690

then multiply output voltage at the cartridge by 0.690 to get voltage output as a function of the load resistor and then again by the turns ratio to see the voltage at the MM input. Or:

1 x 0.690 = 0.690 mV
0.690 x 18 = 12.42 mV

though you're right in that your cart needs to see the optimum impedance of 1000 ohm that you've specified when you listed the specs. i'm confused bout why you listed 1500 as the figure in your recent post? you lost me there...

also with this cinemag the system resistive load 145.06 and internal load of 65 do not match hence won't be a good match methinks

regards

 

[Sidharth Trehan]

And i thought Mr. Malvai was to share some 'exotic' photographs today??

AHOY ! *taps the table n waits

 

[mahiruha]

DISCLAIMER: i am inherently bad at math. why i'm doing this, that too many times over, no idea

now i've got a different figure mahiruha,

12.42. here's how. basically i'm a creative person and rarely do the same thing the same way hyeah:


R(Load_effective) = (47000 ohms / 18^2) = 145.06 ohms

(Vout / Vcart) = (R(Load_effective) / (R(Load_effective) + (Rcart)))

145.06/(145.06 + 65)= 0.690

then multiply output voltage at the cartridge by 0.690 to get voltage output as a function of the load resistor and then again by the turns ratio to see the voltage at the MM input. Or:

1 x 0.690 = 0.690 mV
0.690 x 18 = 12.42 mV

though you're right in that your cart needs to see the optimum impedance of 1000 ohm that you've specified when you listed the specs. i'm confused bout why you listed 1500 as the figure in your recent post? you lost me there...

also with this cinemag the system resistive load 145.06 and internal load of 65 do not match hence won't be a good match methinks

regards

Hi Steven,
no problem my friend. At least you knew that there is something called a step up transformer I had no clue about it. I thin now I have found a solution to this problem. I am going with either the lundahl LL9226 or the TX1003-5 Stevens and Billington audio transformes and they both offer step up ratio of 5.
Stevens & Billington Limited Audio Transformers
The prices look decent.
Well the figure of 1500 I got from the following reference.
1000 + 10*65 = 1650 and I took 1500 as a reference value
1000 is my cartridge load and 65 internal impedence.

"For this rule, well use a spec given by the manufacturer: the load impedance. Well take this load impedance as meaning a load impedance recommended for active transformers (and not for passive devices). This data certainly includes things relavent to important characteristics of the cartridge we dont know, but that must be considered.

A manufacturer generally gives you a minimum load impedance for active devices (or a range, but its less common).

If the load impedance (for active devices) is said to be > or equal to 20 ohms, the internal impedance is 3 ohms, you should try to load your cartridge at load impedances between:

1.the load impedance given by the manufacturer (20 ohms)
2.the load impedance given by the manufacturer + 10*internal impedance (50 ohms)
Now, for a 40 ohms internal impedance cartridge with load impedance for active devices of 100 ohms, you should try load impedances between 100 and 500 ohms. If your system is too bright (suppose youre having triangle loudspeakers), you will certainly be happy with something that will cool down your sound, so try something close to 100 ohms. On the contrary, you may be happier with something closer to 500 ohms.

Now, my opinion: I never hear satisfactory results when the load impedance on a passive device is equal to the load impedance indicated by the manufacturer (we understand as load impedance on an active device). Youll try and youll tell me. Well see later the way to test different load impedances but you dont need to test 100 values between 100 and 500 ohms : something like 3 or 4 value is enough and in our case, you could try 100 ohms (and youll tell me), 200 ohms, 300 ohms and 470 ohms (with a 1:10 transformer)"

Which can be found in Step-Ups and MC Cartridges | The Secrets of a Successful Marriage | Vinyl Engine

I also came across a nice article on step up transformer enjoyed reading it.
6moons audio reviews: MC Step-Up Transformers - A Primer

Thanks.

 

[stevieboy]

ah was just bout to suggest lundahl saw it online looks like you've got the problem licked finally! :clapping: the stevens and billington one is nicely priced too!

yes i remember that sixmoons article nice read indeed thanks have added it again cos my bookmarks are not yet imported to the mac.

regards

 

[viren bakhshi]

Guys,

You are getting a bit carried away with this SUT thing!

First of all, from what Mahiruha says, gain is not the problem. He has an additional gain stage in his amplification chain, in the form of an input stage in the integrated amp. So, he really doesn't need a stepup transformer.

If he does want to put in a SUT, it would be to keep the noise floor lower compared to the signal. So, a gain of 5:1 or 10:1 would suffice.

Beyond that, I would select a SUT based on its sound quality. Granted its a passive device, but I'd look up other users opinions on the pairing of the transformer with the cartridge. Changing the load impedance the cartridge sees is very much in our control, with a switching of resistors. The load impedance recommended for a cartridge is a generalized number - not important to match it exactly. Load adjusting should be done by ear - listening to music, for your preference.

Regards,
Viren

 

[malvai]

And i thought Mr. Malvai was to share some 'exotic' photographs today??

AHOY ! *taps the table n waits

@Sid: Here it is bro!

@everyone else: Guys, just thought I'd update you all on my new acquisition!

While Sid get's my Project 2 XpIII, I have finally made the choice between a spanking new VPI Classic and a yr old, sparingly used Clearaudio Ambient, with The Satisfy CF tonearm!

I have had this TT for about 3 weeks now and I can say that it is worth the price paid and then some!

Currently it has a MM cart on it : Clearaudio Aurum Classics. Its in the the same price range of the Ortofon Rondo Red MC Cart that is on the Project.

I'd say head to head the Clearaudio MM is in the same class as the Ortofon Rondo Red MC. The sound is a bit more open but a lean. While the Ortofon is well rounded.

Overall head to head on the two set ups, my impression is that the Clearaudio will knock my socks off completely when I put up a better MC on it and add the Nighthawk phono stage!

Here are a few pics:

 

[mahiruha]

Guys,

You are getting a bit carried away with this SUT thing!

First of all, from what Mahiruha says, gain is not the problem. He has an additional gain stage in his amplification chain, in the form of an input stage in the integrated amp. So, he really doesn't need a stepup transformer.

If he does want to put in a SUT, it would be to keep the noise floor lower compared to the signal. So, a gain of 5:1 or 10:1 would suffice.

Beyond that, I would select a SUT based on its sound quality. Granted its a passive device, but I'd look up other users opinions on the pairing of the transformer with the cartridge. Changing the load impedance the cartridge sees is very much in our control, with a switching of resistors. The load impedance recommended for a cartridge is a generalized number - not important to match it exactly. Load adjusting should be done by ear - listening to music, for your preference.

Regards,
Viren

Hi Viren,
thanks for your reply. You are abosolutely spot on on the gain front that it is ok but from my understanding how this gain is achieved is more important in maximizing the performence of a moving coil cartridge. I am just quoting what I read.

"Note- Moving-coil cartridges generally have more overall energy than moving-magnet cartridges. This is mainly because their (stationary) magnets are more powerful than those that are "moving". The problem to overcome is that their energy is mainly in current, while preamplifiers sense and amplify voltage.

This mismatch can be overcome by either amplifying their existing tiny voltage or transforming their excess (and otherwise useless) current into more voltage before it reaches the phono-stage of the preamplifier. The "phono-stage" then further amplifies the signal and also equalizes it at the same time, using the RIAA equalization curve."

So is it fair to assume (I know very debateable) that a MC cartridge will perform optimally when its strength is amplified which is the current rather than its voltage which the weakness.Don't have very good idea which amplification is better to deal with RIAA equalization curve. To be very honest I am just trying to justify that I need a SUT. you know what I mean.
Thanks.

@Malvai:Congrats.That's a very nice looking table. Enjoy. Be very prudent in your cartridge selection.

 

[Hiten]

Hi Malvai
This TT looks fantastic. Does it have a dust cover ?

 

[Sidharth Trehan]

Mahi bhai, wait till you hear about the cart he is getting, seems he heard your suggestion when you didnt even think of offering it

@Malvai:Congrats.That's a very nice looking table. Enjoy. Be very prudent in your cartridge selection.

@ Malvai
Congrats once again bro.
After quite sometime i have this itch to pick my camera and click this baby you brought home. Need some close up on arm and angles. Need more pics!

 

[stevieboy]

congrats malvai!

seems like a spate of upgrading taking place on the forum! nice table and good looking too! spill the beans which cart are you planning on getting??

regards

 

[avidyarthy]

yeah..... people with outhouses going overboard ..., while I am trying to fix a vintage HMV basic TT ..... sentiments, as well as being bankrupt ...

 

[malvai]

Hi Malvai
This TT looks fantastic. Does it have a dust cover ?

Yes, it does hiten! Its kinda bulky and all acrylic! Got it made esp for this!

 

[malvai]

Mahi bhai, wait till you hear about the cart he is getting, seems he heard your suggestion when you didnt even think of offering it





@ Malvai
Congrats once again bro.
After quite sometime i have this itch to pick my camera and click this baby you brought home. Need some close up on arm and angles. Need more pics!

Will post more pics bro! Once I'm back from Delhi!

I will also do a detailed review on it. Plus will give all u guys a low down on why this TT is soooo special!

 

[Sidharth Trehan]

'Attitude' check is a must to earn Outhouses, the sooner the better.
Wish you best.

yeah..... people with outhouses going overboard ..., while I am trying to fix a vintage HMV basic TT ..... sentiments, as well as being bankrupt ...

 

[Sidharth Trehan]

yeah..... people with outhouses going overboard ..., while I am trying to fix a vintage HMV basic TT ..... sentiments, as well as being bankrupt ...

what all digital do you have in the rack besides the HMV?

 

[malvai]

Hi Viren,
thanks for your reply. You are abosolutely spot on on the gain front that it is ok but from my understanding how this gain is achieved is more important in maximizing the performence of a moving coil cartridge. I am just quoting what I read.

"Note- Moving-coil cartridges generally have more overall energy than moving-magnet cartridges. This is mainly because their (stationary) magnets are more powerful than those that are "moving". The problem to overcome is that their energy is mainly in current, while preamplifiers sense and amplify voltage.

This mismatch can be overcome by either amplifying their existing tiny voltage or transforming their excess (and otherwise useless) current into more voltage before it reaches the phono-stage of the preamplifier. The "phono-stage" then further amplifies the signal and also equalizes it at the same time, using the RIAA equalization curve."

So is it fair to assume (I know very debateable) that a MC cartridge will perform optimally when its strength is amplified which is the current rather than its voltage which the weakness.Don't have very good idea which amplification is better to deal with RIAA equalization curve. To be very honest I am just trying to justify that I need a SUT. you know what I mean.
Thanks.

@Malvai:Congrats.That's a very nice looking table. Enjoy. Be very prudent in your cartridge selection.

Mahi bro! Thanks for the wishes and a friend is really taking care of my cart! God bless him for it!

Meanwhile, Mahi, I think you are getting into a very complex kinda reasoning.... I personally feel, on paper spec is, well, best on paper....

On paper, the newer digi formats should be able to run neck on neck with analogue, but they don't in certain aspects....

Hence, i say, (I too was speculating all sorts of phono and equalisation etc....), keep things simple. keep the phono stage as open to future cart upgrades....

Which is why I chose the Nighthawk. Shaizada has done some extended listening and is running two very different cart on it and is extremely happy with the results.

I would suggest you consider the same path. At least start a dialogue with Ray and see where it leads you.

The Nighthawk components are US army grade and it is built to last. It's sound kills Phono stages worth $3000 and above.

In the end. Its your call.

I like to keep things simple and wonderful!

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

@Malvai Congrats.That is a great looking TT.


Looking forward to your listening impressions.

I like to keep things simple and wonderful!

:thumbsup:

Regards
Rajiv

 

[mahiruha]

Mahi bro! Thanks for the wishes and a friend is really taking care of my cart! God bless him for it!

Meanwhile, Mahi, I think you are getting into a very complex kinda reasoning.... I personally feel, on paper spec is, well, best on paper....

On paper, the newer digi formats should be able to run neck on neck with analogue, but they don't in certain aspects....

Hence, i say, (I too was speculating all sorts of phono and equalisation etc....), keep things simple. keep the phono stage as open to future cart upgrades....

Which is why I chose the Nighthawk. Shaizada has done some extended listening and is running two very different cart on it and is extremely happy with the results.

I would suggest you consider the same path. At least start a dialogue with Ray and see where it leads you.

The Nighthawk components are US army grade and it is built to last. It's sound kills Phono stages worth $3000 and above.

In the end. Its your call.

I like to keep things simple and wonderful!

Hi Malvai,
thanks for the suggestion. I know that Nighthawk phonostage is very good on specs specially the fact it offers wide range of options to fit different cartridges. Now let me give you an example which is often discuseed here like can we get good stereo music out of a receiver. It is often advised to go for a stereo amplifier and the reason being it is meant to do that job only. If we translate this reasoning in to cartridge world would you get a phono stage that does both moving MM or MC or you would get a phono cartridge that only deals with MC. From my understanding to get a good phonostage for a LOMC or MOMC you need a very good step up transformer be it outside the unit or inside the unit.
If you are considering a phono stage for solely MC cartridges then a good option is MCP2 from Sound smith.
Soundsmith built phono preamplifiers
Acoustic sounds in its catalogue praises it highly

"Our new MCP2 is a low cost way to enjoy MC cartridges. It has variable loading from ( 10 ohms to 5k ohms) to allow use with any MC cart and to tune the high end response for your listening preference. Built in high quality fully shielded step up transformers assure noise free and ultra low distortion to allow unfettered enjoyment from your treasured vinyl collection. The new MCP2 has been favourable demonstrated against pre amps costing $3000- $4000 with surprising results."


What I have is this Lyrita phono stage which is very good, what I am trying is to optimize its performence by fine tuning other parameters. Actually I was reading this article on 6moons regarding cartridge and step ups and I particularly liked the portion.

6moons audio reviews: MC Step-Up Transformers - A Primer
" it seems that cartridge manufacturers all engage in audiophile schadenfreude. Basically you (the user) are left with a complete mess to try to sort out, usually empirically and at your own expense.

Next the manufacturer's specifications compound these problems further by stating information such as "40 ohms with transformer, 100 ohms with amplifier". This is techno-babble for "I (the manufacturer) am really not going to tell you how to properly load my cartridge for optimum results". Instead I am going to give you "setting values" for "complimentary equipment" that we also manufacture."

At the end of the day its all about blowing some money for anticipation of heavenly pleasure. Be it women , alcohol or on a step up transformer.:
Thanks.