Two channel setup, almost there...

[psoonee]

Hi guys,

I've been thinking of setting up a two channel setup for a couple of years but somehow did not get around to doing that. Then a few months ago, things somehow magically fell in place (or maybe i got impatient).

So my setup now is a pair of usher be718s, a krell kav300i, sound foundation stands, a squeezbox touch, finolex 10 gauge cable.

The room I had initially bought this set up for was roughly 300 sqft but i ended up installing this in a smaller one. This room is about 18 X 10 feet. two ends of the room are open; one end opens into a balcony and another into the dining area.

Speakers are not the most optimally positioned, they are about a foot from the backwall and spread about 10 feet wide. The listening position is about 6 feet from the baffle plane (works out to just shy of 8 feet from each speaker).

The challenge I am facing is that while the imaging is spot on, it is high. I.e. if listening to some vocals, the singer seems to be somewhere about 6 - 7 feet off the ground.

Could this be an issue with the stand heights?

Would like some feedback on how to improve the placement.

Also, if someone has any leads on a good quality rack in Delhi, that would help.

Cheers!

P.s: Photos are from a phone, so please excuse the quality.

 

[Audio_Freek]

Psoonee,

Usher with Krell,Its a Smoking hot pair. First of all, My wishes for owning such a neat set-up on debut.

Yes, There is two much distance Horizontally position.Hence you need to move the Couch which is in from of the TV to some where else.And RIght side speakers is very close to the wall.Pls move it atleast 1 to 2 Foot from wall. The Height of the stands could be increased to Half a foot.

 

[sdurani]

You're probably getting a strong early reflection off the ceiling, which is acting like an acoustical mirror (asthough there is another pair of speakers up there).

When listening to a pair of speakers, vocals typically image between them (between your left & right speakers).

When listening to two pairs of speakers (in this case, a real pair of speakers at ear height and a virtual pair of speakers at the ceiling), vocals will image betwen them (6-7 feet high).

Absorption panels on the ceiling should kill those reflections and restore vocal imaging back to ear level.

 

[Nikhil]

Looks like a great listening room. Congratulations!

Can you switch sofas and speakers to the opposite wall?
Also try a little toe in and see if this helps compensate.

I think you have a nice listening room given that side wall reflections are minimal.
If you have a carpet, you should try and see if it suits your sound preference.
Since you have a short listening distance you could look at placing bookshelves, or some kind of wall treatment to absorb / diffuse the reflected sound wave.

 

[mpw]

looks like a good combo .. look forward to hearing them some day soon.

mpw

 

[Santy]

Congratulations on getting some nice gear.
I feel the coffee table with glass top could be messing up with the imaging.
Try to convert it into wooden top or keep it out of the envelope and see if you can get a proper imaging.

 

[Naturelover]

Santy's right as usual! Try this - cover the table with a rug while listening and see if it improves things. Best is of course, to remove it!

 

[hydra]

I could be wrong, but are the stands a bit too tall for these speakers? The BE-718 has a sloping baffle, so I would have though that you will need to place these speakers on stands that are quite a bit lower than 28", to get them to point at ear level.

Also, aren't your ears a bit too close to the rear wall for comfort? The reflection from the rear wall, right behind your ears, must be playing havoc with the general imaging.

 

[psoonee]

Psoonee,

Usher with Krell,Its a Smoking hot pair. First of all, My wishes for owning such a neat set-up on debut.

Yes, There is two much distance Horizontally position.Hence you need to move the Couch which is in from of the TV to some where else.And RIght side speakers is very close to the wall.Pls move it atleast 1 to 2 Foot from wall. The Height of the stands could be increased to Half a foot.

Thanks, will try and shift the whole setup a little to the left, that should give space to the right speaker. Wouldnt increasing the hieght of the stand make the problem worse?

You're probably getting a strong early reflection off the ceiling, which is acting like an acoustical mirror (asthough there is another pair of speakers up there).

When listening to a pair of speakers, vocals typically image between them (between your left & right speakers).

When listening to two pairs of speakers (in this case, a real pair of speakers at ear height and a virtual pair of speakers at the ceiling), vocals will image betwen them (6-7 feet high).

Absorption panels on the ceiling should kill those reflections and restore vocal imaging back to ear level.

Yeah, that could be the case... any idea how can i try a bit of damping on the cieling without actually putting a panel up there? And if that works, where do we get abosrption panels?

Looks like a great listening room. Congratulations!

Can you switch sofas and speakers to the opposite wall?
Also try a little toe in and see if this helps compensate.

I think you have a nice listening room given that side wall reflections are minimal.
If you have a carpet, you should try and see if it suits your sound preference.
Since you have a short listening distance you could look at placing bookshelves, or some kind of wall treatment to absorb / diffuse the reflected sound wave.

Since the time I posted, I've toed in the speakers a bit. The imaging has marginally improved, but the hieght issue remains. Yup, going to put carpets in. Will have to think on how to damp behind the seating area. There are a couple of glass cased paintings which are probably making things worse.

Congratulations on getting some nice gear.
I feel the coffee table with glass top could be messing up with the imaging.
Try to convert it into wooden top or keep it out of the envelope and see if you can get a proper imaging.

Santy's right as usual! Try this - cover the table with a rug while listening and see if it improves things. Best is of course, to remove it!

Thanks Santy and Naturelover, I cant move the coffee table out but covering with something makes sense esepecially when Im planning to do a longish listen.

I could be wrong, but are the stands a bit too tall for these speakers? The BE-718 has a sloping baffle, so I would have though that you will need to place these speakers on stands that are quite a bit lower than 28", to get them to point at ear level.

Also, aren't your ears a bit too close to the rear wall for comfort? The reflection from the rear wall, right behind your ears, must be playing havoc with the general imaging.

I had them placed on 18" wooden blocks but the imaging was poor... possibly because of the sofa being in between the speakers. Did not try wit 24 - 26", maybe will try that if I can borrow such stands for a day or so.

Thanks for all the PMs as well, will post back observations with the suggested changes.

 

[Naturelover]

You would probably have seen this.
Maybe you could check with Usher what is the max & min height of their adjustable stands and take it from there.

 

[reignofchaos]

The RWS-729 stand I use goes between 23.5-27.5 inches. In my case, the speakers are somewhere around 26 inches from the ground. Never had any image issues here. Its always dead center and somewhere around the tweeter level. Also the speakers definitely are towed in - by around 15-16 degrees in my case. Try playing around with toe in.

Also try getting rid of the sofa in between the speakers. I think it is definitely causing most of your imaging problems. One final question - what is your source? That matters significantly.

 

[psoonee]

The RWS-729 stand I use goes between 23.5-27.5 inches. In my case, the speakers are somewhere around 26 inches from the ground. Never had any image issues here. Its always dead center and somewhere around the tweeter level. Also the speakers definitely are towed in - by around 15-16 degrees in my case. Try playing around with toe in.

Also try getting rid of the sofa in between the speakers. I think it is definitely causing most of your imaging problems. One final question - what is your source? That matters significantly.

Wont be able to move the sofa, so it has to work around that.

Source is a SBT.

The confusing thing is that the imaging height is varying considerably between the various songs... but most vocal dominated tracks are presented higher than I would like.

How high is the ceiling at your place?

 

[sdurani]

Also try getting rid of the sofa in between the speakers. I think it is definitely causing most of your imaging problems.

Other way 'round. The sofa in between the speakers (certainly the cushions) would be acting like an absorber, which would clean up imaging (cut down on reflections coming from the same direction as the soundstage).

 

[sdurani]

Yeah, that could be the case... any idea how can i try a bit of damping on the cieling without actually putting a panel up there? And if that works, where do we get abosrption panels?

Test the theory first by blocking the sound going to the ceiling. Use a couple of large flat pieces of wood or cardboard placed on top of your speakers, pulled forward enough to hang over the speaker so that they block most of the sound radiating upwards.

IF this lowers the imaging so that vocals sound closer to ear height, then you can either make absorbers using rigid fiberglass/rockwool insulation or buy absorbers from a shop that sells acoustics products. Mount them on the ceiling between the listening area and speakers.

 

[psoonee]

Test the theory first by blocking the sound going to the ceiling. Use a couple of large flat pieces of wood or cardboard placed on top of your speakers, pulled forward enough to hang over the speaker so that they block most of the sound radiating upwards.

IF this lowers the imaging so that vocals sound closer to ear height, then you can either make absorbers using rigid fiberglass/rockwool insulation or buy absorbers from a shop that sells acoustics products. Mount them on the ceiling between the listening area and speakers.

Tried that, didnt help.... i think its the stand height. Will try and get shorter stands to experiment.

Thanks.

 

[Tanoj]

Hi psoonee,

sorry that i may sound out of box....

I believe the speakers, stand etc are good.... no issue with sofa too

please try this and i hope this helps ... cos it did help me

1. for time being , just for test sake, put a blanket or some kind of damp material opp to the speakers, i mean behind your seating position

2. Try different amp, source and cables

3. as Nikhil said pull the speakers about at least 1 feet towards you and do little toe in

4. check the same song/music at different volumes

.... I am suspecting the amp...

All the best


Tanoj

 

[Nikhil]

hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator

Use this link to simulate an approximate setup for your room.
This will give you a good starting point from which you can optimize.

 

[Tanoj]

hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator

Use this link to simulate an approximate setup for your room.
This will give you a good starting point from which you can optimize.

Thank you Nikhil, for this tool

i used it and followed its instructions for speaker placement and it made huge difference

i have a question , in the calc after all the measurements are entered the speaker placement pic is shown, the toe in of speakers is as such directly facing the listening position, do we need toe it like this or do i follow my own method of toe in so that the speaker points to ears, i.e right speaker points right ear and vice verse

Regards

Tanoj

 

[Nikhil]

i have a question , in the calc after all the measurements are entered the speaker placement pic is shown, the toe in of speakers is as such directly facing the listening position, do we need toe it like this or do i follow my own method of toe in so that the speaker points to ears, i.e right speaker points right ear and vice verse

Hi Tanoj,

Glad that the tool helped in some way.

Sorry I didn't see your reply/questions here earlier. In answer to your question, the speaker graphics are only illustrations. I recommend you adjust toe in as per your preference. More toe in gives you a tighter image but really this is something you must try out. Stereo image is an illusion that is created by your own brain and ears.

Use Your Illusion!

 

[shanmune]

hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator

Use this link to simulate an approximate setup for your room.
This will give you a good starting point from which you can optimize.

Hi Nikhil,

Thanks a lot for sharing this link. All the while (until yesterday night), I didn't give importance to the placement of speakers and room acoustics. In fact I didn't have patience to try out those. I saw your post yesterday night and as usual I was least interested in trying out the steps from your web link. When I was about to retire for the night, suddenly your post got flashed in my mind. So I just got up, opened the link provided by you and fed the required data (room dimensions, etc). I noted down the suggested speaker placement positions and I adjusted the speaker positions.

I moved the speaker by a feet or more from the original position and then came the revelation. I saw a significant improvement in the sound quality. I am not exaggerating here. The lower mid-range opened up a lot and the mid-range became sweet. I could hear some of the instruments (especially the bass guitar) and percussion instruments with lot more details and clarity. To be put in simple words, the overall sound was more natural and free flowing. In fact I am yet to do some more optimizations. For a novice like me, it took some time to learn this. In fact I felt that I did a major upgrade. This major upgrade came only at the cost of loosing some amount of my sleep time (and fortunately not at the cost of my money)
For people like me, I advise them to think twice or thrice on the room acoustics before they can do any system upgrade.