USB DAC or Soundcard?

[reignofchaos]

Yup its hard to distinguish between the Hiface connected to a laptop and the stream unlimited transport on my Ayon cd1-s.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

My experience using the same CD (Vangelis Pulstar)

half decent PC+nuforce uDAC marginally falls behind CA 650C, I have asked couple of ordinary listeners and all of them have said "no difference at all"

when we listen to music - do we really go into the spectra, soundstage etc. all the time?

I think that what we do do, all the time, is to want our speakers to disappear. In one person's language that might be, "just listening to the music," in another, it might be, "great soundstage, etc, etc." So I think that whether it is passive or analytical, we do all want the best, in whatever language we describe it. Sometimes, music with obvious fault can be even worse when it is just background music and we're not even listening to it. Go to your nearest restaurant to experience this!

When you don't even notice your system, you won't be looking for an upgrade!

Currently, most of the time, I notice my computer speakers :sad:.

The first-and-foremost thing that would make a difference is to give them, and my ears, some room to breathe, outside of the alcove in which we "live" together. I am confident that, even as entry-level monitor speakers, they are capable of a lot more invisibility if I only gave them the chance.

The second thing is that, yes they are entry level M-Audios. I can't say that a pair of Genelecs would sound wonderful in my tight space, although they would have parameters to play with to get the best out of it.

If I could afford the genelecs, I might be able to afford the space, and the ball park would change entirely so ... I'd move house before I changed my sound card! Or anything else inside my PC* :lol:

Really? Well, no, not really, because I'd enjoy experimenting with a heap of different cards/interfaces, and without doing so, there's no way I can claim that the one I use just now is the best. But it is an indication of priorities, and, if I could suddenly afford to have my own separate room in a much bigger house, and equip it with the Genelec Active DSP speakers we saw at the Chennai meet on Saturday ... well, that would be shifting away from my much-touted pc-analogue-out route, because the speakers come with their own DACs, so it is a different ballpark. I'd probably supply the digital out from the same Audiofire interface that I currently use for analogue-only, because it is or should be, in the same general range as the small Motu unit that the Genelec guy uses to demonstrate sound from the laptop.



*Or, on the other hand, I'd change everything in my PC . It is a general purpose PC that does everything and plays sound. It's worst quality as a sound machine is that it, itself, can be heard. I'd aim to go low-power and low, or silent, fans.

 

[Sudhir Wadkar]

A half decent PC = A good pc with a nice power supply and all

Square_Wave
Can you please specify which type of PC power supply is recommended? I understand that 'the SMPS' is to be of good quality. I have made an attempt to use ASUS Xonar Essence STX card in my PC (Intel i3 CPU + Intel DH55TC Motherboard + 4GB RAM), windows 7 64bit OS.

Thanks.

 

[square_wave]

A half decent PC = A good pc with a nice power supply and all

Square_Wave
Can you please specify which type of PC power supply is recommended? I understand that 'the SMPS' is to be of good quality. I have made an attempt to use ASUS Xonar Essence STX card in my PC (Intel i3 CPU + Intel DH55TC Motherboard + 4GB RAM), windows 7 64bit OS.

Thanks.

Hey Sudhir,

I have very less experience in building PCs for analogue output. This is a specialized area. If this is not done correctly it can sound worse than a 20k cd player.

If you are planning to use a usb dac, any decent power supply will do since most assync usb dacs come with built in engineering to circumvent the noise generated by pc power supplies. You could go with some popular silent power supplies for HTPCs.

Power | silentpcreview.com

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

silentpcreview is one of my favourite information sources.

I still maintain that the manufacturers of sound cards, especially the higher-end, some of which are very expensive, are not so stupid as to have ignored the electrical environment in which their product will operate. However, I'd suggest (contrary to the rest of the machine) an over-spec-ed power supply. Mine is 850W, in a machine that usually draws about 120W: it has a fan, but it hardly stirs, it is completely silent, at least to my imperfect ears.

When building, though, there is nothing wrong with taking into account theoretical stuff that might make a difference, whether we can show that it does or not (as long as it doesn't cost much, and as long as we don't get paranoid!). Maybe a builder would like to know that their PSU is in a separate cabinet compartment; maybe they'd like it to be away from the PCI[e] cards. Mine fails on the latter, but passes on the former. But I'm not using an internal card just now anyway.

The idea that it might be worth taking the sound card out of the case has been around for quite a long time, and many are external devices, whether connected via a proprietary internal card, Firewire or USB. Mine, currently, is an external Firewire box.

I am a believer in not paying for what won't be used, so the user who is very sure that they want a DAC and do not need an ADC may as well not pay for one. They also may as well not pay for stuff like MIDI, and they certainly don't need (for hifi) to pay for mic/instrument inputs. This theory goes to pieces if they pay for the hifi name on the box instead!

Yes, I'd love to play with some high-end stuff, and no, I haven't. There was/is a DAC for sale by Shanthi on this very site. I forget the name, but I recall that Abbey Road studios use them. Very expensive. Drool

My suggested budget for sound-card/interface: Rs.8,000-16,000. If the purse allowed, I'm sure could easily move that to Rs.40,000... On top of all that, I have also taken the road that says, whatever the price, does it work with Linux!

 

[RAJOD]

Of the 2 usb dac's i have used - beresford caiman & dacmagic, i have found the digital inputs superior to usb for music playback. And they become better (async?) as you go up the $ .
So depending on what DAC you plan to purchase, you might still want to use a digital input rather than USB to the DAC.

You can probably go for a sound card first, if you like the analogs .. great, If you dont you have a digital out source to the DAC. I am assuming you already dont have a digi out on your PC.

Try ESI Jilia@ soundcard too.

Interal PCIE sound cards are going to be better than external USB soundcards.
USB is done because they are cheap and easy for users to install. Less hassle fewer tech phone calls to support etc.

It does not matter if its USB or and Internal sound card they both have DACS and some have ADCs. (Analog to digital converters)

USB can't compete with the near ZERO latency of PCX nor its bandwidth.

Its just costlier to produce devices for PCIE. If you don't mind the extra cost go for the internal sound card. Or DAC for you younger folk

 

[rohitmusic]

Thanks guys for this interesting thread.
This thread is interesting for "me" because of two reasons:
1. I am thinking of building a music PC currently
2. Inputs from members owning the AP amps combo and who have already given me inputs on another thread of mine.

Well.. well..
Some notes I have made:
1. Good power supply
2. Silent PC
3. Good sound card

That brings me to the following BIG question:

I know ASUS Xonar is a good entry sound card and while it may be good it is still in the entry segment.
Can you please suggest a pro/mid segment sound card? Here I am talking a step above the ASUS, Juli@, etc...
I am trying to explore which Sound cards are in the mid/upper pro league.

(Note: Also how much should I sensibly spend on the sound card to do justice to the AP amps combo.)

Thinking of building a PC PURELY for MUSIC

Thanks for all the insightful inputs and knowledge sharing!
Much appreciated and Thank You!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Look at companies like Marian, RME, and even Lynx. Maybe M-Audio: their domestic internal card has been long repsected, although Juli@ gets the limelight these days.

In not completely sure, but it seems to be more-or-less-the-same soundcard that Lynx have been selling for over a decade at rather large prices.

The trouble with climbing the sound-card ladder is that the devices are no longer aimed at domestic users. Some of them, indeed, are useless to domestic users, being made for communication with pro studio equipment using protocols and connections that are not generally found on home devices.

They also trend to sport inputs that we don't need, such as connections for microphone and instruments.

It's a fun and fascinating world, but not much of it is relevant to simply playing/recording music in two channels.

 

[rohitmusic]

Look at companies like Marian, RME, and even Lynx. Maybe M-Audio: their domestic internal card has been long repsected, although Juli@ gets the limelight these days.

In not completely sure, but it seems to be more-or-less-the-same soundcard that Lynx have been selling for over a decade at rather large prices.

The trouble with climbing the sound-card ladder is that the devices are no longer aimed at domestic users. Some of them, indeed, are useless to domestic users, being made for communication with pro studio equipment using protocols and connections that are not generally found on home devices.

They also trend to sport inputs that we don't need, such as connections for microphone and instruments.

It's a fun and fascinating world, but not much of it is relevant to simply playing/recording music in two channels.

OK, Thanks for the inputs Thad!
Should I read this as "stick to Asus" ?

Direct question: (Pick any one if you could pick only one from long term perspective )
1. Asus Xonar ST
2. Asus Essence One - External DAC
3. Any other sound card from above recommendation

Let us say you wanted to get good SQ. If we benchmark against a good DAC like the thiyaga (not that I can afford one! but we are benchmarking here ) then where does the sound card options stand purely in terms of overall SQ (ignoring rest of the other features)?

I am on the verge to getting a source pretty soon. Tending towards setting up a dedicated music PC with a sound card while thinking of a DAC option at back of my mind.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

We all have our prejudices, so let me be open about mine. It goes, "Asus? They make reasonable-budget laptops and computer stuff, not hifi sound cards!"

I really should get over that. Indeed, I should applaud Asus for providing good sound cards for the domestic market, and looking after those who want better-quality multi-channel HT sound. Especially in the light of the good reviews the equipment gets here.

Please see ESI's site. I think I'd probably be happy with one of those cards. The Juli@ would give me balanced output, too, but that is not a requirement that many domestic users have.

I'd be very interested to try a card from Marian. Probably this one.

My personal product loyalty is with RME but it is now hard to find a product from them that is simple enough (as per my comments in previous post). I'd be interested in the Babyface, but RME is no longer interested in providing Linux drivers or providing its proprietary USB code to the open-sourcers to produce Linux drivers. Ahem... better shift my loyalties!

What I currently use is Echo Audiofire2 This requires a Firewire interface, which is not that easy to find as standard on PCs these days. Echo do make PCI products. They also have PCMCIA/ExpressCard products for laptops, if your machine has such a slot.

Echo is certainly respected, but I can't offer A/B-testing opinions. When I bought my RME card a decade ago, I had everything connected, and it took just the touch of a button to discover that it sounded better than my Cyrus CD player. These days, I have a hifi and a PC, and the only way they meet is via a networked Logitech Squeezebox. One day, I'll figure out a way to test out the old RME against the Audiofire2 by A/B test. It might be easier in Windows (and as a Linux user, I have to apply the will-it-eve-work question to all this kit before buying it).

Here's M-Audio's PCI offerings. The audiophile 24/96 has a very good name. Audiobats can buy the 192 at twice the price (but maybe it has other differences too)

I fancy getting my hands on a USB Pre 2 --- but, again, without any need for all that mic input stuff, there would be no point in the fairly large investment.

Here's something else from the maker of the Julia@ that was also on my maybe list when I got my audiofire: the Dr Dac prime. I think that the reason I didn't buy this was that I wanted to try the Firewire route at the time.

Should I read this as "stick to Asus" ?

Well, you'll probably be fine if you do, but, err... maybe not .

PS... damn, you've got me window-shopping on the net again :lol: . This looks interesting! Read this user review! It's also way beyond my budget

 

[spirovious]

My personal product loyalty is with RME but it is now hard to find a product from them that is simple enough (as per my comments in previous post). (

How about this video? SC is RME 9632-

Hifimediy T4 / SMPS 500 / Quad 12L / RME 9632 - YouTube

 

[RAJOD]

OK, Thanks for the inputs Thad!
Should I read this as "stick to Asus" ?

Direct question: (Pick any one if you could pick only one from long term perspective )
1. Asus Xonar ST
2. Asus Essence One - External DAC
3. Any other sound card from above recommendation

Let us say you wanted to get good SQ. If we benchmark against a good DAC like the thiyaga (not that I can afford one! but we are benchmarking here ) then where does the sound card options stand purely in terms of overall SQ (ignoring rest of the other features)?

I am on the verge to getting a source pretty soon. Tending towards setting up a dedicated music PC with a sound card while thinking of a DAC option at back of my mind.

For me I would go with the Zonar ST interal. Less junk hanging off the usb ports.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

It seems one must be a little careful in hanging stuff off USB ports. These days almost everything, even including mouse and keyboard is connected via USB. One must be particularly careful if reading music files from an external USB disk. With a little bit of care, though, there should be no problem in using a USB device. If a person must copy a hundred pages from their scanner to their printer while backing up their multi-terrabyte internal disks to external disks, perhaps they shouldn't grumble if the sound stutters a little . That much traffic would be likely to impact the PCI performance too anyway.

How about this video? SC is RME 9632-

I doubt that anything can be judged from a youtube video except for pictures of the gear. Even if a good mic is used for the recording, the youtube version of the video is lossy-compressed. Maybe, though, it goes to show that the compression is not as bad as often made out: it sounded nice! . The Hifimediy site, though, will be one for the DIYers to browse...

Notwithstanding the fact that there are vastly more expensive alternatives, I wouldn't have thought one could go far wrong with RME. Well, it may not cost lakhs, but GBP 279 (DV247, UK) is not exactly cheap for a soundcard :sad:

Note that the audio connections are balanced. For most people, this will mean checking if unbalanced gear (the normal RCA connectors) can be directly attached, or if a special cable or adapter is required. I could connect it direct (balanced) to my M-Audio PC monitors, but maybe not to my hifi amp.

For me... If I was looking for an internal card, and I had the budget, and it works with Linux (I think most of the older RME stuff does, although the support may not be as total as with Windows)... I'd go for it. That's on the basis of my previous good experience of RME and their position and reputation as pro-audio gear suppliers.

There's a PCI Express version of the card. Doubtless, this would be more future-proof, and this is really worth thinking about before spending the money: my old RME must have been used in at least four systems over ten years! Will PCI slots still be there in ten years from now? The trouble is the premium: 429 from DV247 :sad:.

 

[gryph0n]

PS... damn, you've got me window-shopping on the net again :lol: . This looks interesting! Read this user review! It's also way beyond my budget

In atleast one review, the DAC portion on the m903 seems to be unimpressive. Not bad when compared to its peers, but nothing outstanding too. On comparison (yeah, its unfair) to equipment that costs (4x,5x) more, it comes up wanting.

Computer Audiophile - Grace Design m903 Reference DAC / Preamp / Headphone Amp Review

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

On comparison (yeah, its unfair) to equipment that costs (4x,5x) more, it comes up wanting.

I could probably live with that

In turn, this M903 is several times the cost of the RME card. I winder how that compares. Well, ok, it doesn't, because the Grace stands out among the kit I listed as being a high-class headphone amp as much as a DAC. I probably shouldn't have brought it into the conversation . But it still looks interesting

 

[gryph0n]

I could probably live with that

One always hopes to find a giant-killer. Who wouldn't want a BMW at the price of Maruthi 800?

I probably shouldn't have brought it into the conversation . But it still looks interesting

Thats the whole point of the forum hyeah: We get to chase some potentially interesting stuff that others mention. Sometimes it leads to dead ends, and sometimes to droolworthy stuff that gets added onto the 'must buy sometime when I have enough moolah' list