USB-SPDIF converters thread

[ranjeetrain]

Hello everyone,

I am creating this thread as a place to share your USB-SPDIF experiences.

The motivation behind this thread is - computer audio has already become a mainstream in India due to it's astounding price-performance ratio. It's kinda a bit late to wake up to such a discussion. But better late than never, right?

To be completely honest: I don't have much experience in this area. Like most people, I also have primarily used USB-DACs. But USB used to be considered the weak link in many DAC implementations (at least in past it used to be). So most top end DAC manufacturers chose to limit their input option to more conventional options, meaning the products were targeted primarily to conventional transport users. Some companies chose alternate options; such as Wiess provided Firewire input.

Even as USB is increasingly has become ubiquitous for entry level DACs which are especially targeted at Computer-audio-consumers high end products still are keeping away. This has led to a new product category of USB-to-SPDIF converters. And the market is already ripe with a lot of products costing as low as USD 100 to princely USD 1000+.

King of these converters is a M2Tech HiFace, a product that was launched a few years ago at around USD 150. The product was tested by 6moons and was awarded nothing less than a Blue Moon Award, and still maintains among the highest price-to-performance ratio, being available for as low as USD 100.

I am using the newer version of this interface, the M2Tech HiFace Two. I have used this with my Nuforce DAC 9 in past, (now on sale here) and now using this with my dCS Elgar Plus DAC. A proper review will take a lot of effort to write so let me share the brief summary.

This converter is a kick-ass unit. With DACs up to say USD 2000-3000, this converter is surely not going to be a weak link in the chain. It's reasonably easy to set up and works like a charm. It comes with proprietary drivers but they are not needed on Linux. Even on Windows they work without hassles.



I'd like to know what USB-SPDIF converters others are using and how is their experience. Please do share.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thinking aloud...

If USB is a weak link, then using a USB/SPDIF converter is still including the weak link.

If there is a weak link, I believe that it will be in the DAC interface circuitry/implementation, explaining why a given DAC might well sound different depending on the type of input. USB itself has not been inherently dodgy for audio since the original USB1.0, which is quite a while ago now.

Don't we all have a distrust of adaptors? I can forget that there is an adaptor on the end of my headphone cable, but still, my preference would be for it not to be there! And this is an adaptor that is just converting one size plug to another. Electrically, it is just a matter of contacts. There is no electronics involved, no manipulation of signals, no conversion of protocols. It's just an ...adapter!

Of course, digital is digital, and data is data, right? And I suppose I would be the first to argue that, for instance, sending it out over a network (eg to a Squeezebox or media player) is just fine, and no, wired cannot be any different to wireless, and yes, I'm perfectly happy to do that.

So the protocol conversion from USB to SPDIF must be similar, right? It is just a protocol conversion: same data in, same data out. Can't do any harm.

But why bother?

If you have an absolutely amazing DAC that just doesn't do USB (or doesn't do it as well), is the reason to bother, just as we use adaptors in all sorts of wiring situations just because, at the time, we need to.

Otherwise... stick to USB.

OR... take SPDIF from the computer. Many have digital output, optical or (or even and) co-ax, and, if they don't, or one doesn't feel that a "built-in" will be as good, a sound card, eg Juli@, will answer

No need to add extra box, extra cable...

 

[ranjeetrain]

It is very true that we are all skeptic of "adaptors". And with good reasons. Adaptors by their very nature are subject to side-effects. Unfortunately, there is no way to eliminate them. In fact, in many cases it simply won't be possible to play music without them. A good DAC without a USB input (or without a well implemented USB input) is a good case in point. Let's just say that we have to live with these due to practical reasons. What could be those reasons? Lets try to get in to the root of the problem.

Most solutions to a certain problem are some compromise of some sort. A computer mobo with onboard SPDIF is not free of severe jitter problems. Whereas high end cards such as Juli@ attempt to solve the problem, they come with their own set of problems. First being, they won't fit in your laptop (unless they also have a laptop version). They will cause driver issues. Not all OSes are supported, AFAIK, may be I am wrong.

So if we see, all solutions have their own set of compromises. We must make a choice. What choice does one make depends on the circumstances, including but not limited to value propositions. A sound card such as Juli@ is tied to one computer. A portable product with a individual personality is much more useful as it can be moved among various systems with the same ease one changes a cable in the system.

At the end of the day, a lot of people will find use of USB-SPDIF interfaces. Especially those who have DACs/other equipment that can benefit from a good interface.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

There are high-end DACs that do not have USB. There must be many still-highly-prized DACs of earlier generations that do not have USB. In these circumstances, yes we must, like it or not, adapt.

Good cards do not really come with problems. The Juli@ (I have no personal experience) measures and performs (according to many, here and elsewhere) amazingly well at a modest price. You'd probably be surprised by the analogue output quality, but many people prefer to spend a lot of money on DACs without even trying such a solution. Many of the "problems" with PC audio are pre-imagined and don't happen in practice.

That is not to say that in ten-plus years of PC audio I haven't had problems. I have had problems with bad cards (in the days when they were bad), DPC latency, Firewire chips, all sorts. But a good card in a good machine is, actually a good solution.

I'm told that laptop power supplies really can contribute a lot of noise (HydrogenAudio forum, where imagination is against the rules :lol but I don't know that USB/SPDIF adaptor would eliminate that?

What I'm saying, in a nutshell...

--- If buying new equipment, buy stuff that talks without adaptors.

--- Do not dismiss USB for any theoretical reasons. Even pro-audio companies like RME are now going USB!

DACs/other equipment that can benefit from a good interface.

USB is not a bad interface.

PS, doesn't work with all operating systems tends to mean doesn't work with linux (grr). Yes, this applies to plug in cards; It also applies to USB. And other interfaces. If using Linux, "USB Audio Class-compliant," is a good indicator, but one should still specifically check for Linux support before spending money. Especially lots of money. There was a Burson box that I really fancied, but, alas, deep down we were just incompatible :sad:

 

[sidvee]

I'd like to know what USB-SPDIF converters others are using and how is their experience. Please do share.

Hi Ranjeet, I am using a m2tech hiface evo, with clock and psu. I have also tried a Berkely audio design alpha which another esteemed Hyd. FM is using. I belong to the school (that a few DAC mfrs. embrace) that usb conversion is better done outside of the computer environment. Next I plan to get a empirical audio off-ramp to compare to my current set up. The BADA alpha was quite close to the m2tech, little more in convenience to play hi-rez, where no switching of knobs required.
To my ears, more care that is taken with the signal out of a computer, the more analog like sound one gets, more warmth and musical as opposed to cold, clinical and lifeless sound. In my second system I have a Arcam irdac with 24/192 usb, and I compared using it direct (from the usb output of my sony vaio laptop - jriver mc19) and with m2tech interface. Preferred the latter overwhelmingly. However it is just my personal preference, and I am a novice to computer based hi-fi, just dabbling in it from the past 3-4 years (though I have thrown in my lot with this - do not have a dedicated cd player anymore, just an universal player for the occasional sacd, which I cannot rip)
Cheers,
Sid

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hi Ranjeet, I am using a m2tech hiface evo, with clock and psu. I have also tried a Berkely audio design alpha which another esteemed Hyd. FM is using. I belong to the school (that a few DAC mfrs. embrace) that usb conversion is better done outside of the computer environment. Next I plan to get a empirical audio off-ramp to compare to my current set up. The BADA alpha was quite close to the m2tech, little more in convenience to play hi-rez, where no switching of knobs required.
To my ears, more care that is taken with the signal out of a computer, the more analog like sound one gets, more warmth and musical as opposed to cold, clinical and lifeless sound. In my second system I have a Arcam irdac with 24/192 usb, and I compared using it direct (from the usb output of my sony vaio laptop - jriver mc19) and with m2tech interface. Preferred the latter overwhelmingly. However it is just my personal preference, and I am a novice to computer based hi-fi, just dabbling in it from the past 3-4 years (though I have thrown in my lot with this - do not have a dedicated cd player anymore, just an universal player for the occasional sacd, which I cannot rip)
Cheers,
Sid

Hi Sid,

M2Tech Evo is on my radar as well. In fact I am also looking for something better than M2Tech HiFace Two. I do feel my dCS is being limited by the interface. dCS inherently is a vast expansive sounding machine with a very smooth relaxed presentation. M2Tech HiFace, OTOH, is a very neutral sounding converter. I am looking for something that can complement the DAC better.

Another reason I am also contemplating M2Tech Evo is that it has AES and I2S interfaces, which means it is more future proof apart from being an overall better converter.

Another problem I am facing is with the output bit-depth. FooBar WASAPI plugin, for some reason I can't put my finger on, cannot do bit perfect. You have to choose between 16 or 24 bit output. Now for a person like me who has a mixed collection of 16 and 24 bit material, it's a tricky situation to get in. On either setting I can only do a bit perfect output on only one resolution material. The other group will be up/down sampled. I am not sure if this is due to the plug in itself or due to HiFace.

Regarding highlighted part, yes, I totally agree. I belonged to the school that digital is digital. I measured the latency and thought it was decent enough for audio applications. But it wasn't until I went full-throttle stripped my music PC of everything except blood carrying vessels and blood pumping unit that I realized there was more to get out of digital audio. No amount of equipment upgrade could have compensated for what I achieved in a few weeks' R&D. The usual complaint about digital sounding cold is due to the fact that mostly people hear digital music playing out of an ordinary computer. With a customized computer it's an entirely different ball-game. But we are digressing from the main topic here. Coming back to the converters, it makes a lot of sense to have a good one. I am keeping my eyes out for one that improves over HiFace Two. Evo fits the bill perfectly. Lets see when I get one.

 

[ranjeetrain]

There are high-end DACs that do not have USB. There must be many still-highly-prized DACs of earlier generations that do not have USB. In these circumstances, yes we must, like it or not, adapt.

Exactly what I was saying. You can't throw a great old DAC just because it doesn't have USB input.

Good cards do not really come with problems. The Juli@ (I have no personal experience) measures and performs (according to many, here and elsewhere) amazingly well at a modest price. You'd probably be surprised by the analogue output quality, but many people prefer to spend a lot of money on DACs without even trying such a solution. Many of the "problems" with PC audio are pre-imagined and don't happen in practice.

That is not to say that in ten-plus years of PC audio I haven't had problems. I have had problems with bad cards (in the days when they were bad), DPC latency, Firewire chips, all sorts. But a good card in a good machine is, actually a good solution.

Yup, there were days (of bad cards). On Windows I never faced click and pop problems, not even during bad card days. But yes, on Ubuntu I did experience intermittent pauses while playing music. After a 3 months of brief romance I gave up on Ubuntu. (I liked her styling and otherwise sleek/gorgeous 'interface' though). :lol:

On a serious note, I don't see myself playing music through a full scale computer ever again. (Not withstanding the fact that I had been saving my circa 1998-99 desktop solely for the purpose that someday I will build a music PC around it. Now, it doesn't make any sense at all. There is a lot more power in mobile phones now. Just do a fresh firmware and your mobile phone has more computing power than a full scale desktop 15 ears ago. Funny how you complain about technological advances. )

I'm told that laptop power supplies really can contribute a lot of noise (HydrogenAudio forum, where imagination is against the rules :lol but I don't know that USB/SPDIF adaptor would eliminate that?

It won't. But attempts can be made to not let it pass downstream.

What I'm saying, in a nutshell...

--- If buying new equipment, buy stuff that talks without adaptors.

--- Do not dismiss USB for any theoretical reasons. Even pro-audio companies like RME are now going USB!

Well said.

USB is not a bad interface.

You misunderstood! I didn't mean USB 'the port', I meant 'the USB-SPDIF converter' product, which sometimes are also referred to as an interface as they allow to create a workable interface between two otherwise non-communicable devices.

deep down we were just incompatible

What can I say hyeah:

 

[Santy]

If a USB- SPDIF converter is seen as an additional component in the chain, imagine a sound card which has much more complex circuitry than such an adaptor. Some prefer that too, against a direct USB connection.

 

[ranjeetrain]

USB-SPDIF converter vs Sound-cards

Till the time audio manufacturer's can come up with great sounding one-box machines we have to live with individual components and keep ourselves busy mixing and matching them.

Indeed a sound-card is a lot more complex product than a USB-SPDIF converter. A USB-SPDIF converter is just a pipe. (Okay may be a little more than that, but that's the essence, right?). OTOH, a sound-card does so much more. A sound-card implements:

• A PCI interface (or by whatever means it communicates with the main computer)
• A-D conversion (Most of them have Mic-in/Line-in, right?)
• D-A conversion
• Decoding of myriad multi-channel formats
• Headphone out, Line out, multichannel analogue out
• SP-DIF pass-through (Most modern cards do)

So, if you see, a sound-card is a lot more complicated product. If someone is looking only for a 2-channel output, there is no need to spend on features on doesn't need (won't use).

At the same time, many people would want to buy a USD 500 do-it-all sound-card than a USD 500 USB-SPDIF converters. That's why we have so many product categories in the market.

 

[sidvee]

Hi Sid,

M2Tech Evo is on my radar as well. In fact I am also looking for something better than M2Tech HiFace Two. I do feel my dCS is being limited by the interface. dCS inherently is a vast expansive sounding machine with a very smooth relaxed presentation. M2Tech HiFace, OTOH, is a very neutral sounding converter. I am looking for something that can complement the DAC better.

Another reason I am also contemplating M2Tech Evo is that it has AES and I2S interfaces, which means it is more future proof apart from being an overall better converter.
Lets see when I get one.

You will have to buy used. They are discontinued. Try getting a clock and psu as well, takes the evo to the next level.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I do feel my dCS is being limited by the interface. dCS inherently is a vast expansive sounding machine with a very smooth relaxed presentation.

Did you mean vast expensive machine? hyeah: :lol:

But sure, if you are in that league with the DAC already, then you are going to match everything else to it. That's the criteria, and it makes many of my comments just off-topic to your requirements. Hope they might help some passing person though!

M2Tech HiFace, OTOH, is a very neutral sounding converter. I am looking for something that can complement the DAC better.

There can be no excuse for a protocol converter being anything but neutral. It should output the bits that get input --- even if they are faulty in some way.

Another reason I am also contemplating M2Tech Evo is that it has AES and I2S interfaces, which means it is more future proof apart from being an overall better converter.

Looking at the hiface, I see the words proprietary drivers. This spells doubt to us in the Linux camp

Another problem I am facing is with the output bit-depth. FooBar WASAPI plugin, for some reason I can't put my finger on, cannot do bit perfect. You have to choose between 16 or 24 bit output. Now for a person like me who has a mixed collection of 16 and 24 bit material, it's a tricky situation to get in. On either setting I can only do a bit perfect output on only one resolution material. The other group will be up/down sampled. I am not sure if this is due to the plug in itself or due to HiFace.

Not up/down sampled unless the sample rate is different as well as the bit rate (a pain I have playing through Jack on Linux: I have to change the settings to play 44.1 or 96 --- because I find the media player's sample rate conversion to be inferior). As far as I know, outputting 16 bits as 24 just means adding 8 zeroes to each bit. Not perfect, but not very imperfect either! Probably a topic for another digital thread.

Regarding highlighted part, yes, I totally agree. I belonged to the school that digital is digital. I measured the latency and thought it was decent enough for audio applications. But it wasn't until I went full-throttle stripped my music PC of everything except blood carrying vessels and blood pumping unit that I realized there was more to get out of digital audio. No amount of equipment upgrade could have compensated for what I achieved in a few weeks' R&D. The usual complaint about digital sounding cold is due to the fact that mostly people hear digital music playing out of an ordinary computer. With a customized computer it's an entirely different ball-game. But we are digressing from the main topic here. Coming back to the converters, it makes a lot of sense to have a good one. I am keeping my eyes out for one that improves over HiFace Two. Evo fits the bill perfectly. Lets see when I get one.

Since I first put an RME card in a pc, I've been getting hifi out without too much trouble. But is life devoid of mystery? No way! Even last night, I am wondering why one media player sounds different to another. It shouldn't. But without even consciously comparing, one passes all those foot-tapping, sing-along, etc, tests, and the other ...doesn't. But hey, even going to the toilet can make the music sound better. Brains!

On a serious note, I don't see myself playing music through a full scale computer ever again. (Not withstanding the fact that I had been saving my circa 1998-99 desktop solely for the purpose that someday I will build a music PC around it. Now, it doesn't make any sense at all. There is a lot more power in mobile phones now. Just do a fresh firmware and your mobile phone has more computing power than a full scale desktop 15 ears ago.

But power isn't the crux of the matter. Well, perhaps another sort, rather than processing power, plays a large part: the quality of the power supply

Even a tablet might make a good source (as per another thread somewhere here) but, if I were making a PC as source for a high-class system, I would go for a low-power, low-heat, no-noise, media-player cabinet small pc. And, if I wanted digital out, I'd use the Juli@, with its ability to remove the analogue top part of the card if it won't fit. Of course this is another tangent :lol: ---- but while you are exploring possibilities...

imagine a sound card which has much more complex circuitry than such an adaptor. Some prefer that too, against a direct USB connection.

You can't get more direct than plugging straight in to the computer's bus! Sound card is more "direct" than USB.

Ranjeet, some of the things you list are not necessarily part of a sound card, but I have to admit that, sadly, quality 2-in/2-out cards are very thin on the ground now, and I have to agree that there is no point in paying for stuff you'll never use. If you are interested in AES, though, there was a Lynx card in our forum for sale not long ago.

There are an awful lot of tangents this thread could take ...and I'm trying to control myself

Coming back to your hiface... Very good idea to eliminate the possible (I don't admit actual ) problems of the USB cable to the protocol converter.

 

[jai1611]

Looking at the hiface, I see the words proprietary drivers. This spells doubt to us in the Linux camp

M2Tech has trouble keeping their drivers compatible with Apple. Linux is a far cry

 

[Santy]

You can't get more direct than plugging straight in to the computer's bus! Sound card is more "direct" than USB.

Sound card may be closer as a single component but I believe with all additional features and DSP, the audio path is much longer within it.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

You take a card, just a few inches in size... how can the path be longer?

But this is a side issue: Ranjeet is probably going to use a laptop or other portable component.

 

[arj]

you must look at the Audiophilleo. What i liked about it is that it eliminates the need for an SPDIF cable and directly p[lugs into your Dacs SPDIF in.

 

[reignofchaos]

Please do not buy an m2tech evo. Severe issues with drivers on platforms other win 7.

 

[Santy]

You take a card, just a few inches in size... how can the path be longer?

I am not sure if I get the pun.
You don't believe the connection from one end to other end of the sound card is a straight line, do you? By longer I mean the sheer no. of components the signal passes through inside the sound card. It is definitely much more than a USB - SPDIF converter. In other words, sound card is more complex.

Ofcourse I am not starting a debate as to which is better. I was referring to the 'additional component' in the chain and its complexity.

 

[ranjeetrain]

M2Tech has trouble keeping their drivers compatible with Apple. Linux is a far cry

Fortunately, I haven't had any issue with M2Tech HiFace Two. I have used it with Windows as well as 3 non-Windows OSes. So I guess at least till HiFace Two it's good to go.

Sound card may be closer as a single component but I believe with all additional features and DSP, the audio path is much longer within it.

Exactly!

You take a card, just a few inches in size... how can the path be longer?

:lol: That's will be hard to beat!!!

you must look at the Audiophilleo. What i liked about it is that it eliminates the need for an SPDIF cable and directly p[lugs into your Dacs SPDIF in.

Sounds interesting. Surely worth a look. I dislike wires.

Please do not buy an m2tech evo. Severe issues with drivers on platforms other win 7.

Well, Sid can be 'the tester' in that case

 

[reignofchaos]

Hiface two is xmos so works everywhere. Hiface one was a custom chip. Evo was based on the hiface one design with better power regulation.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Santy, that's a lousy comparison. And if I could ever have afforded a Lynx with analogue i/o, I wouldn't be sitting here with an ODAC and an Echo Audiofire. Whilst it might possibly not match up to some top-line DACs, it would surely go a loooong way