Vinyl vs Digital?

[venkatcr]

Has anyone tried to rip their vinyls using a good audio interface and played it back on his digital setup with same speakers and amp. Curious to know what would be the results.

Very interesting query. But there is something everyone seems to be missing here.

Since the 1970s, music is stored only in digital form all over the world. Studios have given up storing anything on tapes, or any other form of analogue technology. At least in the western world, all music is now stored in digital form only.

So when you are pressing a LP, you are converting digital music to analogue form, compressing it, and creating a master. The compression is for the physical limitation of the analogue medium. Creating a digital version from an LP would be futile when you can get a copy of the original digital version.

With modern digital systems where space is not a constraint, recordings are stored with very high bandwidth, as close to the original analogue wavelength as possible.

As much as you want, analogue systems can never present the full width of the song as they have physical limitations. Digital do not have those limitations. So it is only a question of the format in which they are transmitted to you today.

As I was discussing with someone the other day, we must learn to enjoy music instead of arguing about formats, presentation, etc. For example, I love listening to a Rafi mumber played from a 5 year old laptop through speakers that cost 700 a pair. This is on a daily basis when I am working. At the same time, when I am in the mood, I listen to the same songs (as well as others) on system that have all the bells and whistles. That does not mean I do not go back to my 700 a pair speakers.

I do understand the differences in presentation and delivery. But, I do not stand on one leg, pout and shout 'jockey or nothing'. Why would I miss listening to music that sound decent to my ears just because someone has a different viewpoint?

Remember, all of us have a limitation in terms of what we can spend. Chasing this 'being a pure audiophile' is a sheer waste of time. Time you should be spending listening to music.

 

[arj]

Very interesting query. But there is something everyone seems to be missing here.

Since the 1970s, music is stored only in digital form all over the world. Studios have given up storing anything on tapes, or any other form of analogue technology. At least in the western world, all music is now stored in digital form only.

So when you are pressing a LP, you are converting digital music to analogue form, compressing it, and creating a master. The compression is for the physical limitation of the analogue medium. Creating a digital version from an LP would be futile when you can get a copy of the original digital version.

With modern digital systems where space is not a constraint, recordings are stored with very high bandwidth, as close to the original analogue wavelength as possible.

As much as you want, analogue systems can never present the full width of the song as they have physical limitations. Digital do not have those limitations. So it is only a question of the format in which they are transmitted to you today.

As I was discussing with someone the other day, we must learn to enjoy music instead of arguing about formats, presentation, etc. For example, I love listening to a Rafi mumber played from a 5 year old laptop through speakers that cost 700 a pair. This is on a daily basis when I am working. At the same time, when I am in the mood, I listen to the same songs (as well as others) on system that have all the bells and whistles. That does not mean I do not go back to my 700 a pair speakers.

I do understand the differences in presentation and delivery. But, I do not stand on one leg, pout and shout 'jockey or nothing'. Why would I miss listening to music that sound decent to my ears just because someone has a different viewpoint?

Its not about the technology but the final medium we listen to since that is the only moment of truth ie If I have an option for a vinyl and a cd of the same album whichever I enjoy more is what I will listen to. If I have only one of these I am happy to have just that

BTW I dont really agree with Limitations of Vinyl, other than their availability itself and dont see it coming up on my system and I do use a fairly decent one for both. Maybe technically the digital should be better but there is a reason people listen to older music on vinyls despite several re-issues .
Eg on Call of the Valley , having heard the older vinyl with the newer vinyl and the cd, will anyday prefer the older vinyl pressing , Limitations or not. Maybe someone who hears the newer vinyl might think it does nothing better than the cd depending on his gear and might enjoy it as well although assuming that is the better copy would be wrong.

But again I have a black friday cd and really feel it is great hence do not want to go for the Vinyl.

Remember, all of us have a limitation in terms of what we can spend. Chasing this 'being a pure audiophile' is a sheer waste of time. Time you should be spending listening to music.

I guess this is very personal to each eg There are people who I know who get a joy out of tweaking their own system and it may or may not mean spending money but time definitely and if they do it and get a joy out of it then why not especially if they dont see it as a waste ?

Audiophile etc are only terms we use as a label but the same label does not apply to everyone in the same way..there are so many music lovers who really dont care about the system and maybe its vise versa as well so lets leave the time spent to the judiciousness of the person

But yes if the point is not to spend more and more money/time and forget the intent of why one are doing so then thats something to be kept in mind.

 

[nosortf]

Enjoying music is the primary goal. We all aim to achieve good fidelity via our setups and some folk get great results regardless of format. But there is still that feeling you that are limited.
For me the greatest sense of heightened involvement was in an object based immersive surround setup. It was like barriers being brought down between the listener and the performance. If we want that experience, we should embrace that future.

 

[firearm12]

I dont understand how surround sound helps in enhanced audio perception. Our auditory senses and visualisations go hand in hand. Even we cannot see 360 degrees. Whenever we listen to music we think of performances and visualize them. Now think that one tabla player is playing behing me, vocalist is 90° right, guitarist is 90° left, drummer 45°, bass guitarist 145°, my mind would explode in visualizing. I dont think surround sound concept in audio ever works and ever will.

 

[venkatcr]

If we want that experience, we should embrace that future.

Humans, as a species, is afraid of the future. It is unknown territory, so best avoided. In spite of whatever strides technology makes, I will stick to what I am familiar with. This is more a limitation of the individual, rather than the technology. And the best was to justify what you do is to disparage the technology. In audio it has become very easy to do that using words like 'lush', 'warmth', 'audiophile ears', etc.

When I was in Dubai recently, I had the opportunity to drive my son's Tesla. No clutch, no gear, no engine start, no engine noise. Just pedals for power and braking. It was a surreal experience. At the lights, I was able to leap (in the literal sense - 0 to 60 in 5 seconds) ahead of others before the ICE vehicles could shift to 4th gear. Though my hand and legs were feeling for the clutch and gear handle in the beginning, I could adjust to the new system fairly quickly. I am so used to stretching my neck, looking back and reversing, that reversing was tricky using the large screen. Also a little unsettling is the action taken by the car itself in terms of other vehicles and sticking to a lane. But that is the future. No two ways about it. Some of these technologies will also tickle down to ICE vehicles. Large screens, computer controlled avoidance systems, self driving, cruise control, sticking to a lane, voice activation, etc.

With a background where I have spent 10 years listening to LPs only, I find the advantages new systems offer so overwhelming, that going back to any analogue system would be meaningless. Without any wiring, I now have music across the house. Using multiple Bluetooth speakers, I can listen to music where and when I want. My wife has a dedicated set of speakers for her to listen to her slokas in the morning, and other music. I listen to music when I am working, when I eating, when I am washing vessels, working on the garden, or cleaning the backyard, even as I am writing this post. With a music server installed, I can listen to my choice of music when and where I want. All that is needed is a decent pair pf speakers that have Bluetooth capabilities. I am sure people will worry about definition and such, but I can easily achieve CD quality (16/44.1) all over the house.

My main system is hardwired, but completely digital. There I can get 24/192 and more when I want.

You analogue system may be excellent to hear, but digital systems are not far behind. And they provide so many more features and advantages that are far ahead. I dont have to worry about wear and tear. The song that I listen today will have the same quality after I play it a 1000 times.

Goodbye analogue. Hello digital.

I dont understand how surround sound helps in enhanced audio perception. I dont think surround sound concept in audio ever works and ever will.

There have been some experiments in using multiple mikes to record symphonies and even Indian music. There are presented to you in a way where you will be sitting in the middle of all the artists. If you look at a symphony orchestra, the artists and their instruments are sitting in multiple rows. When you sit in front of the orchestra, what you miss out is the depth, and in some case low sounding instruments. The experiments attempted to overcome these placement shortcomings by 'seating' you in the middle of the orchestra.

In movies, the same is done. But we have got used to it. In essence you are the actor and you can feel the sound around you. When there is a symphony or a recital with multiple artists, why not attempt the same surround sound experience. At least that was what the experiments attempted.

Taking a stereo sound and playing it through an AV receiver is another attempt at the same.

Audio did move from mono to two channel to multi channel. But is was never very successful in the last one.

 

[firearm12]

In movies, the same is done. But we have got used to it. In essence you are the actor and you can feel the sound around you. When there is a symphony or a recital with multiple artists, why not attempt the same surround sound experience. At least that was what the experiments attempted.

Movies are replicating real world scenarios, a thunder wont be there in front of me ever, it will always occur on top of house. The scenes in movies require the viewer to be inside the scene with the character for immersive experience. In normal life we hear from every angle around us. It comes natural. We don't focus on it thats what movie scene surround sound takes advantage of and surprise with effects. But for music, imo the idea of surround sound is flawed. We can surely have multiple layers of speakers, but they will always have to be in front. Just my opinion. There is no surprise element and effects, the mind continuously focusses on whats being played.

 

[Lizard King]

I am a lot less experienced and may have been carried away by the numbers game like you say.
Obviously it seems that you speak from a position of having experienced object based immersive audio at its best, and have made an informed comparison having visited many classical music performances including Stravinsky and Mahler in concert halls. I would be keenly interested to know what format of object based immersive audio did you experience, the music you heard and what was the loudspeaker layout? Would appreciate your indepth inputs. Thanks in advance.

Hate to rain on your parade, but multichannel immersive audio for music has died before it was born. Not once but several times. It is safe to assume that it has no future. Because people don't want their music that way. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
And Ennio Morricone will come back from his grave and admonish you if you deface his music.

 

[DB1989]

Hate to rain on your parade, but multichannel immersive audio for music has died before it was born. Not once but several times. It is safe to assume that it has no future. Because people don't want their music that way. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
And Ennio Morricone will come back from his grave and admonish you if you deface his music.

Hold on to that thought, I'm just about to put on an Atmos playlist on Tidal for the first time - just finished calibrating my system.

Purists will be aghast but i quite enjoy upmixing my tracks to dolby atmos. The brain screams foul but i can't seem to stop my foot from tapping.

 

[nosortf]

Hold on to that thought, I'm just about to put on an Atmos playlist on Tidal for the first time - just finished calibrating my system.

Purists will be aghast but i quite enjoy upmixing my tracks to dolby atmos. The brain screams foul but i can't seem to stop my foot from tapping.

You are playing Atmos mix on Tidal. Wow. If you are playing an Atmos mix via an Atmos surround decoder, then there is no foul. You are merely playing back the embedded mix via a calibrated number of loudspeakers, there is no upmixing hence no foul. Try to get the Album POINT by YELLO. Also if you can get Miles Davis.

Hate to rain on your parade, but multichannel immersive audio for music has died before it was born. Not once but several times. It is safe to assume that it has no future. Because people don't want their music that way. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
And Ennio Morricone will come back from his grave and admonish you if you deface his music.

I would like to point out that Sony Time Warner ie the big software owners are on the Atmos bandwagon along with multiple independent labels like Interscope and Real World.
Previously the software companies were unconvinced, which is no more the case because the music delivery system does not require a physical medium eg discs. Also Atmos can be played on a tabletop dock, a soundbar, headphones, a cheap HT or a full blown surround system.

 

[DB1989]

. You are merely playing back the embedded mix via a calibrated number of loudspeakers, there is no upmixing hence no foul. Try to get the Album POINT by YELLO. Also if you can get Miles Davis.

I was referring to stereo tracks being upmixed to surround through a marantz sr6013 in a 7.1.2 setup. I've found the said presentation to be quite enjoyable as well, especially for EDM.

 

[arj]

I would like to point out that Sony Time Warner ie the big software owners are on the Atmos bandwagon along with multiple independent labels like Interscope and Real World.
Previously the software companies were unconvinced, which is no more the case because the music delivery system does not require a physical medium eg discs. Also Atmos can be played on a tabletop dock, a soundbar, headphones, a cheap HT or a full blown surround system.

I assume this means they need to do some sort of DSP on the content for Atmos ?

 

[nosortf]

I assume this means they need to do some sort of DSP on the content for Atmos ?

Here is where Atmos differs from all previous surround sound. Atmos takes the original multitrack recordings, and can use each of those tracks or instruments as an individual stem, create an encoded surround mix using what is called a base layer and object steering in surround and height, to achieve a desired result. The playback is decoded in Atmos according to the speaker configuration that exists at user end.
The best thing would be to read up on Object based immersive steering.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

[...]create an encoded surround mix using what is called a base layer and object steering in surround and height, to achieve a desired result.

Object placement is not restricted to surrounds and heights. In fact, an Atmos soundtrack is a 7.1 channel encode + objects with metadata describing where they're in 3D space. The Atmos renderer then decodes the object metadata to playback via whatever one's Atmos speaker configuration might be. So, in theory, any number of your speakers can be involved in the reproduction of an "object" sound. Regardless of whether they're your mains, surrounds, other speakers at ear level (up to 24 allowed in total for home Atmos) or overheards/heights (up to 10 allowed for home Atmos).

 

[nosortf]

Object placement is not restricted to surrounds and heights. In fact, an Atmos soundtrack is a 7.1 channel encode + objects with metadata describing where they're in 3D space. The Atmos renderer then decodes the object metadata to playback via whatever one's Atmos speaker configuration might be. So, in theory, any number of your speakers can be involved in the reproduction of an "object" sound. Regardless of whether they're your mains, surrounds, other speakers at ear level (up to 24 allowed in total for home Atmos) or overheards/heights (up to 10 allowed for home Atmos).

Correct.

The greatest advantage of Object based immersive sound, is the fact that dynamics are no more limited, like it is in a 2 channel mix down, which requires levels being curtailed to achieve a balanced sound.

I was referring to stereo tracks being upmixed to surround through a marantz sr6013 in a 7.1.2 setup. I've found the said presentation to be quite enjoyable as well, especially for EDM.

Bro buy the Yello bluray album Point. It will knock your brains out.

Analogue and digital in 2 channels will always remain. If we are talking state of the art, it is not Vinyl or CD, it is something else, that is the point I was trying to make.

 

[bluestar]

This is an age old debate that will not stop , I do feel that eventually just through digital processing and maybe some 'Machine learning algos' companies will be able to make digital audio sound exactly like vinyl (Blind tests). But purists will remain purists and nothing will ever change their mind. High end audio doesn't have a lot of blind testing because of this reason, half the fun is the gear.

 

[fLUX]

Sony DAP's already come with this option (not my pic, borrowed from a forum post) , curious to have these options on some softwares too to check what exactly they have done :

 

[OM_2K19]

Quite a nice write up.

Does vinyl sound better than streaming?

It's an old audiophile argument: is vinyl the only way to achieve auditory enlightenment, or digital music more than good enough?

www.soundguys.com

 

[drlowmu]

I have been a hi fi fan all my life. I am 76 years old. I own over 10,000 LPs, ... maybe even 12,000. I own a Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD top of the line Blu Ray player. ( it plays CDs ). My turntable, tonearm, cartridge, RIAA EQ is very decent .

When all is said and done, I prefer listening to analogue !! In comparison, there is a tenseness to my jaw, the back of my neck, and my head, as though something is amiss, whenever I listen to digital sources.

With digital, something is amiss, ..................to create this physical reaction in me !!

The whole subject reverts back to a Nursery Rhyme I learned as a small child.

" All the King's horses, and all the King's men, could never put poor old Humptey together again . "

YMMV. Fine. You should do ................whatever pleases you. I am not posting to be a troll, nor to argue - with anyone.

I am just offering for all, my own personal experience and perspective. The child's Nursery Rhyme, learned 70 years ago, applies well in 2021 - at least to me.

Jeff

 

[powerslave]

Vinyl vs Digital is a very engaging discussion but dangerously close to being pointless. I often like to use the analogy from another hobby of mine i.e. watches. There is no way in hell an 8000 USD Rolex Submariner will be able to beat a 50 USD Casio quartz watch let alone a 150-200 USD atomic watch like Casio Wave Ceptor in terms of time keeping .

Now here is the deal; the original primary purpose of a watch was to keep time, the fact that it became a key accessory for men and later even a fashion statement is a different matter. Even today all serious watch nuts like to collect mechanical watches despite the latter having mean deviations of even a minute or more per 24 hours.

Vinyl is like a mechanical watch; it has a lot of imperfections, however it has an old-world charm and a distinct material pleasure associated with it , so much so that even if one was able to better or equal it's sound via any digital means, the aficionados may find an excuse/reason to use Vinyl/Tapes. For instance, I would argue that ticks and pops take me to the right period in which the music was recorded for that was the state of the art of technology when most of my favourite music was recorded. A complete black background IMHO is unnatural for period music because even in a live orchestra there is always background/ambient noise, now I am not trying to argue here I am simply saying that love for analog is also influenced by the emotional side of the brain and not just the analytical side, hence quantitative ways to justify Vinyl won't work.

Long story short anyone trying to get into Vinyl or making a switch from Digital expecting a more accurate music rendition may be in for a surprise.

 

[prem]

I have been into digital for more than 25 years. Had the best of digital equipment from top of the line Esoteric transport, CEC TL 1 transport, Zanden dac, Esoteric dac, ML dac, EAD Pro dac, Sony ES series cd players, etc. Have heard about every top of the line dac.

Vinyl is way more real sounding, more dynamic to my ears. I have heard enough masters in studios, including a few Rahman titles. Vinyl playback gives me much more of the studio feel than digital. Now I don’t waste any more time with digital. Am fully into analogue. It doesn’t matter whether I am listening to an old recording or a modern recording. Vinyl just sounds more correct to my ears. And on a good vinyl table with properly set up cartridge and tonearm, you don’t hear pops and tics. Yes, vinyl is expensive and doesn’t offer the convenience of digital. And these comparisons are limited to the commercially available digital and vinyl. Studio digital masters sound very good.