Western Classical Music

Wagner has its own specialists. Conductors and Orchestras.

You could try the Klaus Tennstedt with London Plilharmonic and Wagner excerpts from Suntory Hall live. Truly wonderful.

Else Bavarian State Opera /Bavarian State Orchestra. Zubin Mehta was a long time principle music director at the Bavarian Opera, 7 years if I am not mistaken. He knows his Opera and Wagner.
Indeed so…I am just starting on my Wagner journey. Hope to attend a ring cycle in Bayreuth when I retire. In terms of enjoyment for the non initiate, Stokowski and his orchestral cobbling is sheer fun. But Wagner really is different from any composer anywhere. Tennstedt was a superb Wagnerian. I think a good start would be comparative recordings of a single piece to get a sense of interpretation. The Tannhauser overture which its grand use of the whole orchestra (the French horns baying in unison - marvellous - available on youtube). Sometimes I want something less earth shaking than Tennstedt and his relentless intentity for example…that is why interpretations are important. Also Wagner is about the unity of the arts, the complete experience of plot, staging, libretto, music and voice. Go the whole hog and you will find a magical universe which unfortunately is all consuming. After all his ring cycle takes 14-15 hours.

Wagner’s treatment of characters and their voice registers is quite unique. As a thumb rule all lower voices (so baritone and bass for male and mezzo-soprano and alto on the female side) seem to be for the bad guys. All voices of course are stretched to such a degree that if you sing Wagner you cannot also do Italian lyric opera. It is no surprise Maria Callas and Renata Tebaldi, the two great rivals in bel canto opera and Verdi and Puccini never really did much Wagner.
I think you can for the purposes of embarking on a Wagner journey divide his ouvre into 3 categories IMHO:
-The Ring Cycle (4 operas which are essentially exploration of the universe where Gods are ultimately humbled and shown to be less than pure in intent. The seed of the fall of the Gods starts with the building of Valhalla, the abode of the Gods and the fashioning of the magical ring of power by the dwarfs, and ends with Gotterdammerung or Twilight of the Gods where Valhalla burns)
- The second category comprises the other mature operas especially Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Tristan, Meistersinger and Parsifal
- the third category are orchestral chunks from Wagner (overtures to Rienzi, Tannhauser, Flying Dutchman and others plus the Prelude and love music from Tristan, the chunks from the ring, the Good Friday music from Parsifal), and luxurious arrangements like Stokowski, along with the super Sigfried Idyll composed as a surprise birthday gift for his wife (this is a superb approx 15-20 minute piece that must be heard). I would say the early operas should be a lower priority)

These are the ring cycles that I am currently exploring:
Bayreuth Live
- Clemens Krauss 1953 - the magical sure footed ring in Mono but with a super cast of singers (he was a great Wagnerian and a Nazi party member like Karajan but his links were even stronger
- Knappertsbusch 1956 - as a Kna devotee this is umissable but should not be the only ring to listen to
- Keilberth 1955 the first Stereo Ring
- Kempe Ring cycle 1960 I think and much to be preferred to his Covent Garden cycle
- Karl Bohm1967
- Barenboim (the only digital live recording) 1980s I think but I may be wrong

Outside Bayreuth:
- Solti (stereo ring on Decca 1960s - the most vivid of all)
- Janowski - a superb digital version with very flowing pace (similar to Krauss in some ways but old is gold)
- Jap van Zweden (a surprisIngly accomplished cycle from Hong Kong)
- Reginald Goodall (the slow intense ring, the greatest recording of this mightiest of English WagnerIans)
- Levine MET 2 cycles on video with a wonderful Hildegard Behrens
- Sawallisch (hmm I do not remember this very well)
- Swarowsky (Vienna state opera)
- Haitink (Munich)
- Karajan for the most orchestral Ring with exquisite playing of supreme transparency, a trifle cool perhaps
- the two Furtwangler recordings in very bad sound (from Rome and La Scala Milan - incidentally Maria Callas was a great Furtwangler devotee, once stopping her car in the US so that she could finish listening to a performance broadcast on radio)

Zubin Mehta did a cycle in Florence with the Maggio Musicale but I have never heard it. He had all the makings of a great Wagnerian but never conducted in Bayreuth, that holiest of holy Wagner halls. My bias, but I would avoid Rattle…I have also not listened to Christian Thielemann.

Apologies for the long ramble, but at this stage of my life in my early fifties, I am beginning my journey as an aspiring Wagner Nutcase…could not resist the thread.
 
My initiation into Wagner music was through the overtures and other other orchestral parts when in college.

Then i “tried” to sit through a VHS of Tristan and Isolde because I started to like Carmen. Stuck to the orchestral parts for the next 20 odd years. 😂

Just like you have recently started on Wagner on again.
 
Indeed so…I am just starting on my Wagner journey. Hope to attend a ring cycle in Bayreuth when I retire. In terms of enjoyment for the non initiate, Stokowski and his orchestral cobbling is sheer fun. But Wagner really is different from any composer anywhere. Tennstedt was a superb Wagnerian. I think a good start would be comparative recordings of a single piece to get a sense of interpretation. The Tannhauser overture which its grand use of the whole orchestra (the French horns baying in unison - marvellous - available on youtube). Sometimes I want something less earth shaking than Tennstedt and his relentless intentity for example…that is why interpretations are important. Also Wagner is about the unity of the arts, the complete experience of plot, staging, libretto, music and voice. Go the whole hog and you will find a magical universe which unfortunately is all consuming. After all his ring cycle takes 14-15 hours.

Wagner’s treatment of characters and their voice registers is quite unique. As a thumb rule all lower voices (so baritone and bass for male and mezzo-soprano and alto on the female side) seem to be for the bad guys. All voices of course are stretched to such a degree that if you sing Wagner you cannot also do Italian lyric opera. It is no surprise Maria Callas and Renata Tebaldi, the two great rivals in bel canto opera and Verdi and Puccini never really did much Wagner.
I think you can for the purposes of embarking on a Wagner journey divide his ouvre into 3 categories IMHO:
-The Ring Cycle (4 operas which are essentially exploration of the universe where Gods are ultimately humbled and shown to be less than pure in intent. The seed of the fall of the Gods starts with the building of Valhalla, the abode of the Gods and the fashioning of the magical ring of power by the dwarfs, and ends with Gotterdammerung or Twilight of the Gods where Valhalla burns)
- The second category comprises the other mature operas especially Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Tristan, Meistersinger and Parsifal
- the third category are orchestral chunks from Wagner (overtures to Rienzi, Tannhauser, Flying Dutchman and others plus the Prelude and love music from Tristan, the chunks from the ring, the Good Friday music from Parsifal), and luxurious arrangements like Stokowski, along with the super Sigfried Idyll composed as a surprise birthday gift for his wife (this is a superb approx 15-20 minute piece that must be heard). I would say the early operas should be a lower priority)

These are the ring cycles that I am currently exploring:
Bayreuth Live
- Clemens Krauss 1953 - the magical sure footed ring in Mono but with a super cast of singers (he was a great Wagnerian and a Nazi party member like Karajan but his links were even stronger
- Knappertsbusch 1956 - as a Kna devotee this is umissable but should not be the only ring to listen to
- Keilberth 1955 the first Stereo Ring
- Kempe Ring cycle 1960 I think and much to be preferred to his Covent Garden cycle
- Karl Bohm1967
- Barenboim (the only digital live recording) 1980s I think but I may be wrong

Outside Bayreuth:
- Solti (stereo ring on Decca 1960s - the most vivid of all)
- Janowski - a superb digital version with very flowing pace (similar to Krauss in some ways but old is gold)
- Jap van Zweden (a surprisIngly accomplished cycle from Hong Kong)
- Reginald Goodall (the slow intense ring, the greatest recording of this mightiest of English WagnerIans)
- Levine MET 2 cycles on video with a wonderful Hildegard Behrens
- Sawallisch (hmm I do not remember this very well)
- Swarowsky (Vienna state opera)
- Haitink (Munich)
- Karajan for the most orchestral Ring with exquisite playing of supreme transparency, a trifle cool perhaps
- the two Furtwangler recordings in very bad sound (from Rome and La Scala Milan - incidentally Maria Callas was a great Furtwangler devotee, once stopping her car in the US so that she could finish listening to a performance broadcast on radio)

Zubin Mehta did a cycle in Florence with the Maggio Musicale but I have never heard it. He had all the makings of a great Wagnerian but never conducted in Bayreuth, that holiest of holy Wagner halls. My bias, but I would avoid Rattle…I have also not listened to Christian Thielemann.

Apologies for the long ramble, but at this stage of my life in my early fifties, I am beginning my journey as an aspiring Wagner Nutcase…could not resist the thread.
Surprise Surprise !
 
Surprise Surprise !
Oh I did not know this…wish he had a chance to do a ring cycle in Bayreuth…by the way the flying ink pot used to be great magazine…have not read it in recent years …very different perspective from UK, Continental or US critics…I think one reason perhaps why Mehta was not invited to Bayreuth for a ring cycle is perhaps his association with the Israel Philharmonic…maybe I am wrong but Wagner’s family as you know had serious Nazi links…but this conversation triggers a wish to explore Zubin Mehta and his Florence ring. Thanks for sharing…so much to listen to, so little time…
 
Oh I did not know this…wish he had a chance to do a ring cycle in Bayreuth…by the way the flying ink pot used to be great magazine…have not read it in recent years …very different perspective from UK, Continental or US critics…I think one reason perhaps why Mehta was not invited to Bayreuth for a ring cycle is perhaps his association with the Israel Philharmonic…maybe I am wrong but Wagner’s family as you know had serious Nazi links…but this conversation triggers a wish to explore Zubin Mehta and his Florence ring. Thanks for sharing…so much to listen to, so little time…
I think he would have done one ring atleast with the Bavarian State Opera. I have heard live excerpts somewhere. 7-8 years as principle director there(one of the longest) without a ring cycle isnt possible😉. It may not have been released.

I doubt him not doing the ring at Bayreuth has anything to do with Israel Philharmonic else he would not have conducted and recorded Wagner rings with other orchestras in Germany, Austria, e.g. Munich, Vienna. But one never knows.

But do explore……
 
Paul Paray discography on Mercury Living Presence by Dave Hurwitz


Yes indeed…I have the first box and most of the recordings on the second box via the earlier Mercury box sets. He was a wonderfully vital conductor and his Detroit legacy is superb.
 
After hearing dozens of versions(including the ones by Lenny) I have finally come to the conclusion that this one(Gary Graffman) floats my boat the best along with the Earl Wild one.

The Americans play Rhapsody in Blue the best. Period ! 😂

 
Pierre Monteux Magic

Wow I was just going through some of my Monteux recordings. This Brahms 2 is superb. I doubt if Monteux ever did. any less than superb Brahms. The only lament is that he was too old by the time he got his LSO position. Wish he had more recordings in good sound. Some of his San Francisco Symphony recordings as well as his recordings with French orchestras have very congested sound.
 
Wow I was just going through some of my Monteux recordings. This Brahms 2 is superb. I doubt if Monteux ever did. any less than superb Brahms. The only lament is that he was too old by the time he got his LSO position. Wish he had more recordings in good sound. Some of his San Francisco Symphony recordings as well as his recordings with French orchestras have very congested sound.
He did superb Brahms and superb Tchaikovsky. For Monteux i have resigned to the fact that recordings be damned, I try and read into the recording and listen to his interpretation and ideas. His Daphnis & Chloe was amazing too. His interpretation of The Rite of Spring is the only one I can sit through and thats saying a lot.

Listen to his Living Stereo recordings with Boston Symphony. I am sure you have already. Listening right now to his Pathetique with Boston and am in the clouds.

Think about it, around that time French conductors or conductors of french origin ruled strong. Charles Munch, Monteux, Paul Paray, Jean Martinon, etc. were up there ! These were out of France. The ones in France conducting their french orchestra’s were another lot.
 
He did superb Brahms and superb Tchaikovsky. For Monteux i have resigned to the fact that recordings be damned, I try and read into the recording and listen to his interpretation and ideas. His Daphnis & Chloe was amazing too. His interpretation of The Rite of Spring is the only one I can sit through and thats saying a lot.

Listen to his Living Stereo recordings with Boston Symphony. I am sure you have already. Listening right now to his Pathetique with Boston and am in the clouds.

Think about it, around that time French conductors or conductors of french origin ruled strong. Charles Munch, Monteux, Paul Paray, Jean Martinon, etc. were up there ! These were out of France. The ones in France conducting their french orchestra’s were another l
Hi Indeed,

He did super recordings of both Brahms and Tchaikovsky in Boston and elsewhere. His French music recordings are great as is to be expected and of course the Rite…his Beethoven cycle is also amazing let down only by the sonics in the 9th and perhaps a less than great event. Oh and all those great French conductors…the amazing thing was each of them had character and personality. I recently got hold of the Monteux edition on RCA for next to nothing -14 CDs for less than 3 dollars a piece. Ironically when he signed his last contract in his last decade of his life, with the LSO, he got a contract for 25 years with an option to renew! Munch is equally great in my opinion and I would put Paray and Martinon not too far behind. There is a great photograph of Koussevitsky, Munch and Monteux together, great directors of the Boston Symphony. I have recentry started exploring the work of Pierre Dervaux, an unsung hero and of course the great Debussy and Ravel specialist Ingelbrencht to mention two conductors in France. There was Michel Plasson of course especially in Opera with his Toulouse band. As for French music, there is no one better than that old rogue Sir Thomas. Such legends all…thank you for your post. Hope we can catch up sometime…
 
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Hi Indeed,

He did super recordings of both Brahms and Tchaikovsky in Boston and elsewhere. His French music recordings are great as is to be expected and of course the Rite…his Beethoven cycle is also amazing let down only by the sonics in the 9th and perhaps a less than great event. Oh and all those great French conductors…the amazing thing was each of them had character and personality. I recently got hold of the Monteux edition on RCA for next to nothing -14 CDs for less than 3 dollars a piece. Ironically when he signed his last contract in his last decade of his life, with the LSO, he got a contract for 25 years with an option to renew! Munch is equally great in my opinion and I would put Paray and Martinon not too far behind. There is a great photograph of Koussevitsky, Munch and Monteux together, great directors of the Boston Symphony. I have recentry started exploring the work of Pierre Dervaux, an unsung hero and of course the great Debussy and Ravel specialist Ingelbrencht to mention two conductors in France. There was Michel Plasson of course especially in Opera with his Toulouse band. As for French music, there is no one better than that old rogue Sir Thomas. Such legends all…thank you for your post. Hope we can catch up sometime…
i know about his LSO contract. It was something I think LSO guys did only to keep his morale up and show belief in the old and wise conductor that Monteux was and to massage his ego a bit. This piece of news was all over the press I believe.

Poor Martinon I think sufferred the same fate as many conductors where they were let down by recording quality. Paray had a tight bond with mercury, Munch with RCA, etc. Their legacy survives well. I have not heard a very good recording of Martinon yet. Maybe you can point me in that direction.

Speaking of That old rogue Sir Thomas, one cant forget his younger partner in crime Sir Malcolm Sargent the concerto and choral works king on that island. The British council record library had quite a bit of vinyl’s from both.
 
A very good live recording….Each Piano note is a pearl. Arcadi Volodos the magician.

 
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