What makes a system sound good at low volumes?

[arj]

Please refer to this article to know more about Speaker sensitivity. explained very clearly.

Understanding Speaker Sensitivity - Geoff the Grey Geek

A simple explanation on how to understand and use Speaker Sensitivity specifications. Includes calculators to determine how loud your speakers will be.

geoffthegreygeek.com

I use Castle Knight 5 floorstanders having 91db sensitivity and they provide good bass even at low volumes.

This is also very basic along with Sensitivity, impedance curves and Phase curves also make a very bg difference. you can have a 90db speaker but if it drops to 3 ohms at 40 hz, you will hear a lower bass at lower power since most amps dont hold current across curves. A phase swing due to crossovers can also do the same.

Hence lower volume listening has a lot to do with everything. Speaker-Amp Matching, Room setup ,components,vibration control, power and even ambient noise and not something you can fix in a short term unless you are really experienced to know the interplays.

Late night listening usually reduces a lot of these parameters and is a good judge since power improves and ambient noises reduce and you are only left with inherent noise of the components ( which again is higher in most tube equipment )

 

[Hari Iyer]

IME, a class a SET Class amp of low wattage can sound much louder than a SS class AB amp. As mentioned by Keith the FM curve plays a role at deciding the equal loudness in your room.

Once I asked my mother how loud the speakers should be and her simple answer was as loud as my voice. I try to follow that rule as much as possible. We usually don't struggle to listen when we hear someone talking in the room, so I try to maintain relative loudness of vocals similar to normal people conversation. I am not sure how loud certain musical instruments sound but I leave that to the recording. IME, if we try to maintain this then you don't have to struggle with the volume knob too often.

 

[rikhav]

Not sure if it's mentioned else where in the thread but in late night power is also cleaner
That also leads to lower noise floor and hence more information even at lower volumes

Also the ambient noise is so much less comparing in day time

 

[arj]

Tube equipments are noisier in a musical way. If it’s actually noisier than there is something seriously wrong in the build or topology. My late night listening sessions on tube give the most pleasure ever.

thats why I prefer tubes

 

[Hari Iyer]

But if you are able to nail and start enjoying combo of both solid state and tube in your setup then it’s hard to go back to anything else.

That's what exactly I am doing above 150 Hz my FR OB plays full range with my 300 B tubes and below 150 Hz my H-frame OB with Bolton 10" woofer with class D plate amplifier takes over. So I get best of both worlds.

 

[rupy]

Firstly, I couldn’t figure out which forum to post this under, so posted here. Kindly move to a more appropriate forum if there’s one.

I want to know what goes into making a system sound good (by that I mean clear, detailed and balanced, without losing certain frequencies) even at lower volumes? Which component (source, amplifier or speaker) contributes more to low volume listening pleasure? And what about that component (for example say power rating or class of the amp) causes this? Also, at what average dB level should a capable system still sound good? 60 dB? 55dB?

(My uneducated guess is it’s about balanced attenuation... but what helps achieve it?)

someone mentioned Loudness controls.Yes,these controls are designed as per Fletcher-Munsen curves(I hope spellings are correct).These are curves are graphs to tell that human hearing has its peculiarities at low volume levels.Loudness corrects these electronically and effectively reduces the effect with increases volume levels.

Fletcher-Munson graph

 

[Kannan]

A well designed speaker, a good quality preamp, minimal ambient noise, healthy ears, and most importantly well recorded music material.............../or headphones.

 

[raj_mj]

Interesting thread. Wondering, for a given system, what settings will give 'best results' at low volume? Loudness control button/setting on amp, raising speaker levels in settings, using EQ?

 

[tuff]

A well designed speaker, a good quality preamp, minimal ambient noise, healthy ears, and most importantly well recorded music material.............../or headphones.

Headphones are perfect for low volume music. There's a reason why they are called "LOUD" speakers.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

A related question:
If the amplifier has a gain switch, is it better to listen with the gain set to high when listening at lower volumes?

Slightly off topic, how is the gain switch different from a volunteer control pot? Please explain in terms of effect on sound rather than in terms of voltages and it's location in the circuit.

Many thanks

 

[arj]

A related question:
If the amplifier has a gain switch, is it better to listen with the gain set to high when listening at lower volumes?

Slightly off topic, how is the gain switch different from a volunteer control pot? Please explain in terms of effect on sound rather than in terms of voltages and it's location in the circuit.

Many thanks

I remember reading a discussion in this and the general experience was to keep the amp at the lowest gain with which it can drive the speaker at low volumes one generally listens to. Usually higher the gain higher the distortion and hence keep that at the lowest.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

I remember reading a discussion in this and the general experience was to keep the amp at the lowest gain with which it can drive the speaker at low volumes one generally listens to. Usually higher the gain higher the distortion and hence keep that at the lowest.

So high gain can result in more distortion but high volume will not?

 

[arj]

So high gain can result in more distortion but high volume will not?

thats the theory the way i understood..especially if the volume control is via a pot or Autotransformer. But then I am quite technically challenged

 

[Fiftyfifty]

I just played around some stuff and here are my observations.

When listening at low volume, setting the gain switch to high and keeping the volume pot turned low sounds better than the other way around. At higher volumes, setting the gain switch to low and turning up the volume pot is better.
By better I mean better detail across all frequencies and better sound stage.

Of course, these observations are limited to my setup and may not be universally valid.

Cheers.

 

[prem]

So high gain can result in more distortion but high volume will not?

Yes. This becomes true if there’s enough gain in the system already.

The gain system may be provided to compensate for low gain of some sources. For example phono gain is usually 1 v. CD player gain is usually 2v. So when playing a record, you might want to use the gain switch

Normal gain structure of an amp is around 26 dB. Your Kinki has 2 settings. 26 dB and 22 dB. Your Denafrips is 2.3 v output. That’s a bit higher than normal. So 22 dB will also work well.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Normal gain structure of an amp is around 26 dB. Your Kinki has 2 settings. 26 dB and 22 dB. Your Denafrips is 2.3 v output. That’s a bit higher than normal. So 22 dB will also work well.

Absolutely, that's my observation too. But at really low volumes, high gain setting sounds definitely more balanced

 

[Kannan]

Normally adjustable gain is provided to match with the input gain of the preamp stage. The best output with lowest distortion will be the lowest gain on the power amp for the highest gain (max undistorted volume) on the preamp.
How it is usually done precisely is by using an Oscilloscope for getting the max non clipping gain on the power amp at the highest volume in the pre.
Other methods include using a multimeter, distortion meter or for the more experienced, just with ears.

Some amps and integrated amps, provide a loudnes level or a fixed high gain level. This is normally engaged for low dynamic recordings and adds some kind of graphic attenuation to the input.
Much older amps and preamps used to have filters to do the same.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Thanks to this thread, I'm now able to enjoy music at low volumes: By (1) using the SS preamp of the Kinki in place of the Berning mz2 tube preamp; and (2) setting the gain on the power amp at high 26db. However, I need to reverse both positions when i turn up the volume!

 

[Deleted member 15865]

A related question:
If the amplifier has a gain switch, is it better to listen with the gain set to high when listening at lower volumes?

Slightly off topic, how is the gain switch different from a volunteer control pot? Please explain in terms of effect on sound rather than in terms of voltages and it's location in the circuit.

Many thanks

I may not be able to answer your exact question. But I have the gain switch in my headphone amp (Schiit Valhalla 2). It is supposed to be set depending on the impedance of the headphone - high to be used for headphones with 300 ohms or higher. My T1 2nd gen headphone is 600 ohm and it needs the Valhalla2 to be set at high gain to make it sing - irrespective of the volume. The sound is thin and boring if switch is set to lo gain

So it’s about impedance matching. A well matched amp will drive a given speaker better, at high or low volume than a poorly matched one.

Normally adjustable gain is provided to match with the input gain of the preamp stage. The best output with lowest distortion will be the lowest gain on the power amp for the highest gain (max undistorted volume) on the preamp.
How it is usually done precisely is by using an Oscilloscope for getting the max non clipping gain on the power amp at the highest volume in the pre.
Other methods include using a multimeter, distortion meter or for the more experienced, just with ears.

Some amps and integrated amps, provide a loudnes level or a fixed high gain level. This is normally engaged for low dynamic recordings and adds some kind of graphic attenuation to the input.
Much older amps and preamps used to have filters to do the same.

Thanks Kannan. Well explained answer. What would you suggest could be a solution if the default preamp gain is higher and there’s no way to change the gain on the pre or the power amp. With my tube pre, I cannot use the volume knob above 10 am (it starts at 6 am position) as the volume gets too loud (above 90 dB). This is the case even with powerful power amp (dual mono 120 w per channel). I guess that’s because my BS speakers are 89 dB and pretty easy to drive. Is there an easy way to get around this apart from going for low sensitivity speakers? Or it’s something that I can ignore?

 

[prem]

Sachin, ask Viren if you can use some other tubes to reduce the gain. Also check with him if there’s a gain control inside the amp which you can turn to reduce or increase. One of my earlier tube amps had it.