What sound am I looking for in a system?

Where we get a brake in settling with a system ? when he hear other person system and same day we realise or assumes our system is bad in some aspects,,, There we restart our journey once again searching for the something... So culprit is not our system, other person system.. :) :) Sorry joking... May be we should have reference as one person system where we like and try to achieve that, so 1 step achieved.. Next step you move forward or got settled depends on the second person system where you are going to visit or if your audiophile soul is satisfied in first step itself..:):)

All apart just do some room correction and minimal acoustic additions will make some wonders.
 
To me the Most Essential aspect of Stereo Reproduction is Soundstage.

EVERY Other aspect of reproduction does not require Stereo, ie 2 of EVERYTHING in the Chain.....

If you have spent DOUBLE on Stereo, it seems to me to be ESSENTIAL to get Good Sound staging. :)

Saying this not only because I firmly believe in this, but also to demonstrate that Opinions differ widely. Best to be exposed / informed of the diverse preferences, and then decide what floats your boat.... a Sort of "Think Global, Act Local"
@IndianEars have you tried any room tweaks for better soundstage?
Like these: https://positive-feedback.com/Issue72/ae300.htm
 
Where we get a brake in settling with a system ? when he hear other person system and same day we realise or assumes our system is bad in some aspects,,, There we restart our journey once again searching for the something... So culprit is not our system, other person system.. :) :) Sorry joking... May be we should have reference as one person system where we like and try to achieve that, so 1 step achieved.. Next step you move forward or got settled depends on the second person system where you are going to visit or if your audiophile soul is satisfied in first step itself..:):)

All apart just do some room correction and minimal acoustic additions will make some wonders.
Taking a break from listening your setup for a week or two will make it sound quite different IME.
 
Taking a break from listening your setup for a week or two will make it sound quite different IME.

I remain 2-3 months away from my system regularly and can attest to this. It sounds new and better every time i listen to it after a break. But only for some days and then cycle repeats. Sometimes i do think its just the change that our brain wants.
 
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Able to scale up and down, large to small
@prem, I couldn’t quite understand this point, can you please explain what you mean?

Natural resolution, not “detail”
Though have some idea of what you might be meaning here, could you elaborate upon ‘natural resolution’ - how to gauge it in a playback?

Finally, if you were to pick (say) the five most critical points (for your own listening) from your list, which would they be?

  • Enjoyable outside of listening sweet spot
  • Images are stable as listener moves around the room
My system gives me the first, but not the second. The image moves laterally towards the speaker/direction that I move to. What worked for you (apart from speaker selection) in this? Any placement tips to improve on it? (Though asking this of @arj, others can also contribute.
The biggest culprits IME are all these fancy wires and isolation stuff. While these improve audiophile stuff like imaging, staging, etc, they impose their signature on everything played.
Convinced about it, learnt that the hard way with your guidance. Got rid of the fancy accessories to good effect. Been focusing mostly on placement and the improvements has been very encouraging.

Overall, I agree it is very important to have a clear idea of ‘what one wants to hear in the sound and why’. I’ll call it one’s ‘listening ideology’. Otherwise one keeps going helter-skelter with the tweaks and accessories. Personally I am moving away from ‘getting the right sound’ to ‘getting an engaging sound’. Immersion, to me, is the most important (subjective) factor. Am sure there are more objective/audio elements that contribute to it. But I prefer assessing the result subjectively in terms of how engaged I am with what’s being played back instead of getting into the elementary assessment. And I find old film music, without any bells and whistles to lure me, to be better content for this subjective assessment.
 
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When I say scale up and down, there will be passages in the music where it has to scale up and suddenly it could turn into a whisper. For example western classical. Even some of Rahman songs.

In natural resolution, voices will never get sharp. It will always sound open. This is not to be mistaken as smooth sound which tends to homogenise. The minor inflections in voices will be tracked without making anything sharp. False detail will typically make voices sharp and many times you’ll find lower octaves a little cut and incomplete. I hear false detail in more than 95% of the systems out there.

I have always had these qualities in my sound for years
  • No aspect of the sound calls attention to itself
  • The sound is balanced
  • The system sound is absent from the presentation
  • Allows a wide range of volume adjustment for what is most appropriate for a particular recording
  • Enjoyable outside of listening sweet spot
  • Images are stable as listener moves around the room
  • No need to crank the volume
  • No added or artificial extension
  • No analysis of the sound into bits and pieces, music experienced as a whole

It’s other qualities like natural resolution, open effortless dynamic sound, ability to scale up and down, energise room and improve the live feel that I am hoping to achieve
 
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I have passive room treatment...

Never tried this product, Dr. Bass.

Have you tried / experienced it ?

FWIW, I am skeptical of positive-feedback.com ... True to their name, they ONLY write POSITIVES about anything they review...:p probably to attract / retain advertisers..... ?
Yes IndianEars. I have heard it in a familiar system. That system had about 3 of them. We tired switching off one at a time and everytime there was a degradation in overall clarity and spaciousness. There was no change in PRAT and Tone though. I would have taken it home for a demo if I was in a market for any room tweaks. The dealer did recommend to start with 1 and move up to 3 of these for a decent sized listening room.
 
Where we get a brake in settling with a system ? when he hear other person system and same day we realise or assumes our system is bad in some aspects,,, There we restart our journey once again searching for the something... So culprit is not our system, other person system.. :) :) Sorry joking... May be we should have reference as one person system where we like and try to achieve that, so 1 step achieved.. Next step you move forward or got settled depends on the second person system where you are going to visit or if your audiophile soul is satisfied in first step itself..:):)

All apart just do some room correction and minimal acoustic additions will make some wonders.
true. .and every system is different and since the room is different cannot be replicated with the same components.
While we do realize issues with our system, i believe we also realize what it does well !- And as long as our components are good we can make something out of it.
. The image moves laterally towards the speaker/direction that I move to. What worked for you (apart from speaker selection) in this? Any placement tips to improve on it? (Though asking this of @arj, others can also contribute.

Not there yet Sachin . Just started with some finetuning 2 days back !
Currently trying to get the sound nuanced with the right resolution and dynamics and with a good soundstage. A lot of it was achieved by removing toe in and speakers firing straight down does a decent job. I also have speakers placed at almost 1/3rd the length and breadth .
 
My system gives me the first, but not the second. The image moves laterally towards the speaker/direction that I move to. What worked for you (apart from speaker selection) in this? Any placement tips to improve on it?

Imaging will become good when distance from walls to speakers is optimal, room size is optimal and distance between speakers is optimal. Speakers need to disappear in room while playing. If they dont disappear it will cause issues that you are experiencing.
 
Imaging will become good when distance from walls to speakers is optimal, room size is optimal and distance between speakers is optimal. Speakers need to disappear in room while playing. If they dont disappear it will cause issues that you are experiencing.
Though i get good imaging depth and width in my listening spots and you can't point the source, the image collapses as soon as you move laterally no matter what i have tried. The side walls are 8 feet away from the speakers on each side, depth from the backwall is 2 feet and between the speakers is 8 feet. In the second spot, my speakers are 90cms aways from the sidewalls each and depth from backwall is 5 feet.

For testing imaging width, i use the opening passages in "vogue" by Madonna and "Ayala" by Mobitex. There are certain cues in the songs where it seems that the sound is coming from the far right/left, not that of the speaker but that of the listener. To promote the illusion of the sound coming from the far left/right corner of the room lateral to the listener's position, I have the surround speakers placed in a manner that more often than not, people who listen to my system are convinced that the surround speakers are also at play. i've also nailed the centre image where under no circumstances can even I (or anybody whos ever auditioned my system without exception, seasoned audiophile or not) tell that the sound is coming from the left and right speakers unless the track contains information which places the instruments exactly where the speakers are. Again, to promote this illusion, i have a centre speaker placed in between and many a time after powering on the system and when i can't remeber the state that i left it in, i find myself walking up to the centre speaker to check whether its in play. This is despite the centre speaker being placed 3 feet behind the front L/R (in my second spot) which indicates that im getting good imaging depth as well. Its only lateral movement that remains a sore point and for that, Im yet to find the missing piece of the puzzle, so much so that i believe it cannot be solved unless the speakers are good enough to allow it and i haven't heard any such speaker.

Have you managed to find any particular solution to this issue?
 
Not there yet Sachin . Just started with some finetuning 2 days back !
Currently trying to get the sound nuanced with the right resolution and dynamics and with a good soundstage. A lot of it was achieved by removing toe in and speakers firing straight down does a decent job. I also have speakers placed at almost 1/3rd the length and breadth .
Could you kindly elaborate? Is it a square room? I am aware of the rule of thirds insofar as length is concerned. I've never found breadth to be an issue unless the speakers are placed less than approx 90cm from the side walls. However, Im using the rule of thirds for speaker placement for my first listening spot ( please refer to my previous post i.e. #33) vis-a-vis both length and breadth.

Again, is it possible to get a good image despite moving laterally? Have you ever heard any such stereo setup?
 
Though i get good imaging depth and width in my listening spots and you can't point the source, the image collapses as soon as you move laterally no matter what i have tried. The side walls are 8 feet away from the speakers on each side, depth from the backwall is 2 feet and between the speakers is 8 feet. In the second spot, my speakers are 90cms aways from the sidewalls each and depth from backwall is 5 feet.

For testing imaging width, i use the opening passages in "vogue" by Madonna and "Ayala" by Mobitex. There are certain cues in the songs where it seems that the sound is coming from the far right/left, not that of the speaker but that of the listener. To promote the illusion of the sound coming from the far left/right corner of the room lateral to the listener's position, I have the surround speakers placed in a manner that more often than not, people who listen to my system are convinced that the surround speakers are also at play. i've also nailed the centre image where under no circumstances can even I (or anybody whos ever auditioned my system without exception, seasoned audiophile or not) tell that the sound is coming from the left and right speakers unless the track contains information which places the instruments exactly where the speakers are. Again, to promote this illusion, i have a centre speaker placed in between and many a time after powering on the system and when i can't remeber the state that i left it in, i find myself walking up to the centre speaker to check whether its in play. This is despite the centre speaker being placed 3 feet behind the front L/R (in my second spot) which indicates that im getting good imaging depth as well. Its only lateral movement that remains a sore point and for that, Im yet to find the missing piece of the puzzle, so much so that i believe it cannot be solved unless the speakers are good enough to allow it and i haven't heard any such speaker.

Have you managed to find any particular solution to this issue?

I got what you are saying but i dont think that this type of behaviour can be avoided totally unless speakers designed that way. It can only be reduced upto a certain extent using placement techniques and room behaviour. btw i have noticed that having bookshelves on stands work better in resolving lateral movement issues. That maybe because the speakers don't move as much air as floorstanders.
 
I got what you are saying but i dont think that this type of behaviour can be avoided totally unless speakers designed that way. It can only be reduced upto a certain extent using placement techniques and room behaviour. btw i have noticed that having bookshelves on stands work better in resolving lateral movement issues. That maybe because the speakers don't move as much air as floorstanders.
Popular wisdom dictates that bookshelves image better but my Quad S5s image like nobody's business. While the Evo 4.2s (considered an excellent imaging speaker by reviewers) and Kef Q350s (point source i.e. coaxial so imaging should per se be better) are good and i do have them on dedicated and extremely sturdy stands, the Quads are king, despite having a stupid amount of drivers on them (7 each). However, lateral movement is good with neither. Then again, i feel that the Quad S5s move lesser air than the said bookshelves, hence lending credence to your theory.

Whats the imaging like on your Quad Z4s? Do you have any bookshelves and do you find them to image better because of the phenomena that you mentioned?
 
I read i
Could you kindly elaborate? Is it a square room? I am aware of the rule of thirds insofar as length is concerned. I've never found breadth to be an issue unless the speakers are placed less than approx 90cm from the side walls. However, Im using the rule of thirds for speaker placement for my first listening spot ( please refer to my previous post i.e. #33) vis-a-vis both length and breadth.

Again, is it possible to get a good image despite moving laterally? Have you ever heard any such stereo setup?
The way I look at it is you will still get an image anywhere in the room and the speakers disappear from each point and not just in one place and its a consistent image in terms of placement. i get that from most places where i could potentially sit,

I have found imaging to improve with 1/3 from the side wall as well it locks better into the room and guess the best distance between speakers is arrived this way of course need to move it around a bit but usually in that range you get a good lock in. This is without any toe in though. earlier with toe I was at around 1 m between inside wall of speaker and side wall but used to have holes in soundstage..now its pretty good
 
Popular wisdom dictates that bookshelves image better but my Quad S5s image like nobody's business. While the Evo 4.2s (considered an excellent imaging speaker by reviewers) and Kef Q350s (point source i.e. coaxial so imaging should per se be better) are good and i do have them on dedicated and extremely sturdy stands, the Quads are king, despite having a stupid amount of drivers on them (7 each). However, lateral movement is good with neither. Then again, i feel that the Quad S5s move lesser air than the said bookshelves, hence lending credence to your theory.

Whats the imaging like on your Quad Z4s? Do you have any bookshelves and do you find them to image better because of the phenomena that you mentioned?

I have played with dali mentor menuets before quads in the same room and i can definitely differetiate. I won't say quad image is bad, its very good but the disappearing act of dalis was beyond good. With dalis there was no point in the room where i could say there were speakers playing in the room. It was like room itself was dancing and playing. That thing i just miss with quads. It maybe because my room is very small.
 
I have played with dali mentor menuets before quads in the same room and i can definitely differetiate. I won't say quad image is bad, its very good but the disappearing act of dalis was beyond good. With dalis there was no point in the room where i could say there were speakers playing in the room. It was like room itself was dancing and playing. That thing i just miss with quads. It maybe because my room is very small.
Some speakers sounds fuller and weighty. They need more space between them. Also found, warm sounding speakers also need more space to achieve good imaging.May be that's isuue with said speakers.
 
@DB1989 I've been playing around with speaker toe-in angles and two listening positions - rarely used position 1 and most used position 2. pls excuse the crude drawing. IME when the speakers are toed in to face the centre of position 2, it creates the best imaging and soundstage for position 1 and 2. However if i toe-in to face the centre of position 1, obviously the speaker axis crosses before the listening position 2 and while the imaging doesn't suffer, the overall soundstage sounds a bit narrow but only just!

toein.jpg
 
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