What sound am I looking for in a system?

[DB1989]

@DB1989 I've been playing around with speaker toe-in angles and two listening positions - rarely used position 1 and most used position 2. pls excuse the crude drawing. IME when the speakers are toed in to face the centre of position 2, it creates the best imaging and soundstage for position 1 and 2. However if i toe-in to face the centre of position 1, obviously the speaker axis crosses before the listening position 2 and while the imaging doesn't suffer, the overall soundstage sounds a bit narrow but only just!

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Position 2 is quite interesting as you mention that you get Good imaging notwithstanding the speaker axis crossing much prior to the listening position. In this config, does moving laterally in position 2 collapse the image or is the listening sweet spot widened in comparison to position 1 where i presume the listening sweet spot is narrower?

also, how is the bass response at listening position 1? I presume again that position 2 would be good because of room boundary gain or is it not near a back wall?

 

[IndianEars]

When you sit beyond the position where the 2 speaks intersect, the sweet spot is widened, even though focus and imaging are Slightly compromised.

This was explained by the legendary Ken Ishiwata when he demonstrated Marantz at the Mumbai Hi Fi show a few years ago.

He said he sets up his speakers like this in Hi Fi Shows to get a wider sweet-spot, so that more listeners can get the benefit similtanously

 

[nosortf]

I have moved away from the aspects that define high fidelity listening and various preferences. My system is now setup for my understanding the thought and intent of the composition and various moods of musicianship, combined with the production efforts and engineering skills. I want to be in a zone where the emotional contact is at a cerebral level.

 

[arj]

When you sit beyond the position where the 2 speaks intersect, the sweet spot is widened, even though focus and imaging are Slightly compromised.

This was explained by the legendary Ken Ishiwata when he demonstrated Marantz at the Mumbai Hi Fi show a few years ago.

He said he sets up his speakers like this in Hi Fi Shows to get a wider sweet-spot, so that more listeners can get the benefit similtanously

Interesting ! Wouldnt that be dependent on the off axis dispersion of the tweeters hence the point of crossing over will vary ?

 

[Hiten]

newbie posting alert :
So much depends on dimensions of the room and overall offaxis response of the speaker. On position one (depending on room dimensions) the reflections from backwall (if untreated) will reach little late, causing it to revereberate (not bad if one likes the sound) in position two (and if there is enough space behind speakers) if one treats the backwall the focus, imaging and soundstage will be more or less balanced. (again will depend on listener preference) but will be good to experiment. Music content (dynamic, full range or limited band like very old hindi songs, vocals etc.) also probably affect the preference.
regards.
addition : somewhere I had posted online simulation of speaker placement and room reflections. Not precise but gives rough idea.

 

[Sean de Silva]

Position 2 is quite interesting as you mention that you get Good imaging notwithstanding the speaker axis crossing much prior to the listening position. In this config, does moving laterally in position 2 collapse the image or is the listening sweet spot widened in comparison to position 1 where i presume the listening sweet spot is narrower?

also, how is the bass response at listening position 1? I presume again that position 2 would be good because of room boundary gain or is it not near a back wall?

Playing that Nathan Parker sax CD now and i feel the sweet spot widens at position 2 while moving laterally. Obviously position 1 projects a more brighter prominent but narrower image while position 2 creates the feeling of a room-enveloping sound. Did I contradict myself ? Dunno if any of my deductions make any sense but I'm enjoying the bigger soundstage seated at pos 2 which is infront of the back wall. Maybe it's got to do with the recording too haha?

When you sit beyond the position where the 2 speaks intersect, the sweet spot is widened, even though focus and imaging are Slightly compromised.

This was explained by the legendary Ken Ishiwata when he demonstrated Marantz at the Mumbai Hi Fi show a few years ago.

He said he sets up his speakers like this in Hi Fi Shows to get a wider sweet-spot, so that more listeners can get the benefit similtanously

Lol maybe i should stand corrected from my earlier post. The focus, imaging and sweet spot are all sounding sweet so i think afaic this exaggerated speaker toe-in does the trick for me ! No more tinkering with angles and protractors and analysis paralysis galore. What i now find most funny is that Q Acoustics advises "slight speaker toe-in" and here I have taken this to the insane extreme with extremely pleasing results! Last but certainly not the least is another fascinating outcome with this large toe-in. The speakers now feel like they "disappear" into the room as compared to when i had them facing straight forward and could kinda localise the sound from each channel. So personally, another huge box checked!

 

[firearm12]

Tour of Nelson pass' room, just no fancy cables, connectors, conditioners, isolators or anything snake oil at all. He is giving inspiration to dump all these headache causing problems to me.

 

[IndianEars]

Do you like the "House Sound" of Pass Labs ?

Im not a particular fan, a bit too laid back & sanitised.

Live music never sounds so polite, to me.

Of course YMMV

Interesting ! Wouldnt that be dependent on the off axis dispersion of the tweeters hence the point of crossing over will vary ?

Yes, Arj, I agree.

Most tweeters have atleast 30 deg dispersion off their axis, so extent of overlap you can dial in & get away with, will vary, speaker to speaker.

 

[shyamv]

I have a completely different take on this topic. One needs to look for 'music' from one's system not the sound. After all, it's a music system not a sound system

 

[Dr.Bass]

Do you like the "House Sound" of Pass Labs ?

Im not a particular fan, a bit too laid back & sanitised.

Live music nevers sounds so polite, to me.

Of course YMMV


Yes, Arj, I agree.

Most tweeters have atleast 30 deg dispersion off their axis, so extent of overlap you can dial in & get away with, will vary, speaker to speaker.

Except for the lowest power XA25, as one goes higher up in power in the pass line up, it just sounds more sleepy

 

[shyamv]

Lol maybe i should stand corrected from my earlier post. The focus, imaging and sweet spot are all sounding sweet so i think afaic this exaggerated speaker toe-in does the trick for me ! No more tinkering with angles and protractors and analysis paralysis galore. What i now find most funny is that Q Acoustics advises "slight speaker toe-in" and here I have taken this to the insane extreme with extremely pleasing results! Last but certainly not the least is another fascinating outcome with this large toe-in. The speakers now feel like they "disappear" into the room as compared to when i had them facing straight forward and could kinda localise the sound from each channel. So personally, another huge box checked!

I have a similar experience with 3050i. Extreme toe-in as recommended by Ken Ishiwata widens sweet spot. In addition, this arrangement minimises the first reflections in my assymetrical listening room as there is a large glass window one side and an open space on the other side.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Correction, even the XA25 sounds a bit sleepy already

 

[arj]

I have a completely different take on this topic. One needs to look for 'music' from one's system not the sound. After all, it's a music system not a sound system

I am sure less than 1% of those to listen to music from a music system do all this so maybe thats the real take as to why we have a system ie listen to music.
The different take is in trying to make it better in different ways and as to why its a hobby in experimentation with facets.


.

 

[Sean de Silva]

I have a similar experience with 3050i. Extreme toe-in as recommended by Ken Ishiwata widens sweet spot. In addition, this arrangement minimises the first reflections in my assymetrical listening room as there is a large glass window one side and an open space on the other side.

Good to know i have you for company and thanks for the vote of confidence

 

[Dr.Bass]

Imaging and soundstaging is one area where I have not paid enough attention. I have noticed though that when equipments are geared towards excellent imaging, it automatically falls into place, rooms(pun intended) to improve always prevail.

For example, I had a Lamm LL2 preamp at one point. It was a very a quiet and spacious sounding preamp. Focussed images, big and stable soundstage. I didn't have to do much to get a palpable holograpic stage. No room treatments, just a carpet and records and some furnitures to damp the echo. But I can't say the same with the other preamps which followed.

 

[IndianEars]

So true, Some electronics Image Very well, and some dont.

Valve pre amps seem to excel in this department .... confession, I use an Audio Research Ref 6 pre amp

 

[Dr.Bass]

So true, Some electronics Image Very well, and some dont.

Valve pre amps seem to excel in this department .... confession, I use an Audio Research Ref 6 pre amp

Terrific stuff IndianEars. ARC is known for their soundstaging capabilities

 

[souravin]

Very good thread. My philosophy helped me choose following parameters for my type of music listening

• Natural resolution, not “detail”
• Room is energized and music is “alive”
• Draws listener into the music
• Relaxing, zero fatigue
• Open, effortless, and dynamic sound
• No analysis of the sound into bits and pieces, music experienced as a whole

Moreover, I have built a system which suits my genre of listening i.e. Bollywood and Bengali oldies and an occasional English songs in search of good recording and audiophile experience.

I wish my audio rig to be very very musical and engaging. Being too analytical is unwarranted also as I’m mostly listening R.D.Burman or Kishore Kumar. Source recording won’t help much and I have no other choice but to calibrate with best possible audio output from vintage gears. That’s what I did and invest a bigger pie of my budget to acquire sources only.

I had many opportunities to listen @prem and @bhaskarcan audio rig. I must say every time those rigs enlighten me with a new learning and knowledge. Music is natural and very very gripping. No spicy overpowering rather a wholesome audio experience.

However since last couple of years my foray to DIY Tube Pre amp, DD Pre and Power and recently Pass F5 are taking my enjoyment to another level. Does that mean I have stopped thinking tinkering around new acquisitions? I have no answer. I do like to listen to other set ups, resulting to richness of knowledge and again a calibration to what I can do within my budget.

Thanks,
Sourav