Which amp for BE-718 and Ayon CD-1s?

[Dr.Bass]

Measurements specs can be misleading not only because of marketing hype, but also because manufacturers do those measurements in anechoic chambers where as the response in a 'normal' room would be completely different manner.Our listening room is an integral part of our music system which is why the final results good/bad are only revealed gradually after we have paid for everything:sad:

Ajay, I think you misread what Gobble was trying to hint. It is true that one cannot say how a speaker sounds just by looking at specs, it is hardly anything to go by but electronically how an amp will behave with a particular speaker can be inferred with a high degree of certainty by going through these important characteristic attributes. Phase Shift and Impedance shift are definitely some very important parameters to get to this conclusion. There is a technical reason why many valve amps do not work with some speakers at all but work with some other speakers wonderfully well. This is not by chance! I would still say it will not tell anything about tonality, musicality, soul, naturalness or fluidity but will definitely give you a strong indication whether a match is good. bad or ugly. Unfortunately these attributes are not published by all speaker manufacturers nor are they highlighted in their specs. Additionally a lot of audiophiles do not focus on these intrinsic measurements while making decisions even if buying blind. They see what the manufacturers want them to see.

 

[ajay124]

Incidentally where are the thread starters Amit and Pratim?
Still auditioning down south or digesting the soundfeast they gorged on over the weekend

 

[pratimbayal]

Here is the update on my auditioning at Chennai and Bangalore.

I auditioned MF6i and Bryston 4BSST^2 with Thiel PSC bookslf speaker. I liked the speaker better than my BE718. IMO It is a very good speaker. Though this is at doubler price range than BE718, they are giving good discount for this discountinued piece. I am giving a thought on this speaker.

Bryston amp is very detailed and clear but I liked musicality of MF more than Bryston. MF is one of my shortlisted

I went to Decibel and listened to Parasound . I am not going for this .

Auditioned Blumenhoffer at TLR . The Fun is a very nice speaker .The most attracting point of this speaker is that the sound is very very lively. The genuine is slightly flat compared to Fun. However they both are good speaker.

The Einstein Amp ( forgot the model name "Light in the Dark" ?)) is a fantastic amp . However this is beyond my budget.


Myself and Amit heared BE 718 with Khartago and Usher. Usher is a good amp to match with BE 718, it is musical and dynamic. I was very interested to listen the startos which were not there. Usher and Stratos are in my shortlisted amp .Khartago also was good to me but am looking for listening Stratos asap.


Amit wanted to listen Emerald Physics . Finally we listened the EP bigger one (CS 2.4 ?) . It is an excellent speaker .I liked it very much . Though the smaller version might fit in my stretched budget , my room position might not be proper for theses speaker. Excellent speaker.

We wait for feedback from Amit.

 

[longshanks]

^Since you were in chennai You shold have also given the ATC SCM19 with the ATC SIA2-150 integrated amp a try at cinema focus.

I guess you heard the thiel and MF combo at audio people, ive heard theil with MF KW mono block amp there a while back and it sounded very good.

 

[ajay124]

@Pratim
"Bryston amp is very detailed and clear but I liked musicality of MF more than Bryston."
When I was researching both these amps on the forum/google/phone I came across this detail v/s musicality viewpoint several times.Finally opted for the Bryston's because with the help of some GOOD advise I reached the conclusion that MF is a good amp but the Bryston is a fantastic amp.However to each his own.The fact that you found the MF M6i better than the Bryston 4B SST Square(which would be Twice as expensive)speaks volumes for the quality of the M6i.Incidentally did you hear the Bryston with the BP6 or the BP26 Pre?Balanced or Single Ended RCA?

 

[Asit]

Hi Amit,

I have heard the Ayon CD1, the Ushers (both the tiny and the mini with Be), and of course I own the Leben CS300 amplifier.

The Ayon CD1 is a superb CD player. It transformed Pratim's system to a different level. But in my humble view, the above Ushers are not the best matches for the Leben (I have heard the pairing of Leben and the mini Dancers). I have told you this long ago, in our forum, and we have discussed this over the phone too. Of course my views can be wrong, and these are only my views, far from an universal axiom.

Now I do not want to say too much about the Leben. But this much has to be said. I know what this amp can do when matched with the appropriate speakers. Pratim has heard it through my speakers a number of times, and I think he knows what I am talking about.

People say the Harbeths, despite their lowish/average sensitivities, are a good match for the Leben. Perhaps the SHL5 is, which I have not heard. But the Compact 7's I heard with a Leben CS300XS sounded too sweet, lacking in dynamics and the level of transparency and naturalness, lower than what I'd have expected.

I guess what I am trying to say is the following: it IS worth looking for speakers that are good match for this amp. A few suggestions have been made and you got to try them. I have read Zu speakers work very well with the Leben CS300 and they recently have an offering which may just be within your reach (it's a 16 Ohmer though). However, I have no idea if it's at all feasible in India (you have to keep service also in mind, in case something goes wrong).

It is true that the push-pull amps are more tolerant with speakers than the SETs. However, to get the best out of them, at least the Leben also needs careful matching with speakers. I am just plain simple lucky to have this. All I have done is that I have experimented a bit with cables, especially the power cord and the connectors.

Amit, you mentioned about your dissatisfaction with the bass you are getting out of your current set-up. I am quite sure your observations are correct. However, I just like to mention one small thing: at most times the bass that is talked about in circles is due to the room; this bass is slow and does not have the thundering kind of impact. Good bass is deep, and yet fast and resolving. Keep the room out of the equation and then evaluate the bass: ideally this should be the yardstick. I know in our listening rooms this is mostly not possible.

Regards

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Hi Asit,

Thanks for you suggestion. I am in dilemma on whether to change my speaker or to change my amp? both of them are not happy in my set-up due to bad pairing. I have to do something.
I think the first choice should be to change the BE-718 to a suitable speaker. But speaker change is always the most impactful change in any system. So, I may take some time.

Recently I have listened to Bluemenhofer Acoustics Floor standers Genuine FS 4.2 (90 db at 8ohms) and Fun 17 (92 db at 8 ohms) with Einstein hybrid amp 'The Absolute Tune' 60 WPC integrated at Jochen's place at Bangalore. The source was Balanced Tube Einstein CDP. The sound signature was quite intimate and lively. Both the speakers have wave guided horn tweeter and sound comes to listener at sweet spot if the speaker is placed properly. Among the two speakers Fun 17 is bigger and more detailed with fuller sound whereas the Genuine 4.2 was slightly laid back compared to Fun 17. But both speakers are good and good looking without any flashiness. I could not audition them pairing with Leben 15 wpc, as Sridhar did not have any Leben 15 wpc for demo. Have you heard of this company and ever listened to these speakers. Can my 15 wpc Leben drive them? What do you think? Asit, can you please do some research for my benefit.

Another probable speaker may be 'Sonist' 2 way high sensitivity speaker (both Bookshelf and floor stander model). The Sonist speakers have ribbon tweeter and has good review. They can be driven well even with SET amp. But the problem is that there is no dealer in Asia. Have you any idea about these speakers?

Another choice may be full range single drive speaker, which will pair well with low powered valve amp. The brand which comes first in my mind is Omega super alnico 6 with optional deephemp sub woofer. But the beauty of the beryllium tweeter of BE-718 will be missing in a single driver. I have to select among the various compromises.

As an experienced music listener and musician, can you ease my job?

Regards

 

[AMITNOIDA]

I'd suggest Symphonic line amp.I have auditioned Symphonic line RG7 on BE 718 and they together delivered superb sound.
You can consider Symphonic line RG10 Integrated amp (2 x 140 watt at 8 Ohm).

Sameer, Symphonic line RG7 is no doubt a very good power amp. It should pair well with difficult speaker. But its smaller brother RG11 is comparatively affordable (although even it would be difficult for me at my budget, but in view of Puja Bonus etc. it may be thought of). How RG11 will perform with BE-718?

 

[sameer kumar]

Sameer, Symphonic line RG7 is no doubt a very good power amp. It should pair well with difficult speaker. But its smaller brother RG11 is comparatively affordable (although even it would be difficult for me at my budget, but in view of Puja Bonus etc. it may be thought of). How RG11 will perform with BE-718?

It should work ( 2x 100 Watts RMS into 8 ohms, 2 x 250 Watts RMS @ 4 ohms, damping factor by 500 Frequency response of 1Hz to 450,000 Hz rise time 1.0sec, Toroidal transformer 300 VA, Class A-B).However I caution you to seek the help of our forum members Odyssey or DR.Bass to analyse the specs.

 

[pratimbayal]

^Since you were in chennai You shold have also given the ATC SCM19 with the ATC SIA2-150 integrated amp a try at cinema focus.

I guess you heard the thiel and MF combo at audio people, ive heard theil with MF KW mono block amp there a while back and it sounded very good.

Auditioning ATC could have been better. Time did not permit.

Yes I heard Thiel -MF combo at audio people chennai.

Usher and Odyssey amp at ARN bangalore .

Thanks

 

[pratimbayal]

@Pratim
"Bryston amp is very detailed and clear but I liked musicality of MF more than Bryston."
When I was researching both these amps on the forum/google/phone I came across this detail v/s musicality viewpoint several times.Finally opted for the Bryston's because with the help of some GOOD advise I reached the conclusion that MF is a good amp but the Bryston is a fantastic amp.However to each his own.The fact that you found the MF M6i better than the Bryston 4B SST Square(which would be Twice as expensive)speaks volumes for the quality of the M6i.Incidentally did you hear the Bryston with the BP6 or the BP26 Pre?Balanced or Single Ended RCA?

Sorry Ajay , I did not ask the model number of the pre . It could probably be BP6

Pratim

 

[square_wave]

Sameer, Symphonic line RG7 is no doubt a very good power amp. It should pair well with difficult speaker. But its smaller brother RG11 is comparatively affordable (although even it would be difficult for me at my budget, but in view of Puja Bonus etc. it may be thought of). How RG11 will perform with BE-718?

It was great meeting you at Jochen's place Amit.

The RG11 and the odyssey khartago use virtually the same circuit. The RG 11 may be a bit more refined. If you are looking at the RG 11 and its pricepoint, I would suggest the Kismet reference amps from odyssey.

If going the symphonic line way, look at the RG7.

 

[square_wave]

I have read Zu speakers work very well with the Leben CS300 and they recently have an offering which may just be within your reach (it's a 16 Ohmer though). However, I have no idea if it's at all feasible in India (you have to keep service also in mind, in case something goes wrong).

I am sure you are talking about the soul super fly

They are speakers which I want to hear one day. I like their design philosophy.

 

[Asit]

Amit,

Please do not overestimate my ability of research in audio equipments, especially when these days most of the hours of a day I am spending at office. If I happen to find something more than already noticed and heard about the speakers being talked about, I sure will let you and others interested know. Speakers are a very real thing, and research alone could at most let you shortlist some, but not much more than that. You could say I took a long shot with the Zu speakers, just hoping against hope that somebody would pop up with some news about them in India. If not for anything else, at least if we mention and perhaps also discuss a few such brands, somebody may notice the interest and go for a dealership.

Yes square_wave, I was talking about the Soul Super Fly speakers. Their nominal impedance is 16 Ohm, but can take also amps like the Leben CS300 with 8 Ohm taps (as pointed out in their website). The Leben is listed as one of the amps in their website they have voiced these speakers for. BTW, I think the Leben CS300 can also be ordered with an optional 16 Ohm tap if desired. But that is irrelevant once already procured.

Regards.

 

[arj]

Hi Amit,

I have heard the Ayon CD1, the Ushers (both the tiny and the mini with Be), and of course I own the Leben CS300 amplifier.

The Ayon CD1 is a superb CD player. It transformed Pratim's system to a different level. But in my humble view, the above Ushers are not the best matches for the Leben (I have heard the pairing of Leben and the mini Dancers). I have told you this long ago, in our forum, and we have discussed this over the phone too. Of course my views can be wrong, and these are only my views, far from an universal axiom.

Now I do not want to say too much about the Leben. But this much has to be said. I know what this amp can do when matched with the appropriate speakers. Pratim has heard it through my speakers a number of times, and I think he knows what I am talking about.

If you are looking at an ATC-Symphonic Line combination, Dr Bass uses just that (Although the speakers are higher than SCM19) but you will get a feel of the sound...especially as that is a very well balanced setup put up with a lot of care and thought
People say the Harbeths, despite their lowish/average sensitivities, are a good match for the Leben. Perhaps the SHL5 is, which I have not heard. But the Compact 7's I heard with a Leben CS300XS sounded too sweet, lacking in dynamics and the level of transparency and naturalness, lower than what I'd have expected.

I guess what I am trying to say is the following: it IS worth looking for speakers that are good match for this amp. A few suggestions have been made and you got to try them. I have read Zu speakers work very well with the Leben CS300 and they recently have an offering which may just be within your reach (it's a 16 Ohmer though). However, I have no idea if it's at all feasible in India (you have to keep service also in mind, in case something goes wrong).

....

Great advice Asit..maybe because this is very much in line with my view as well regarding Leben, Ayon and Usher..I would anyday prefer having the Leben as the heart of my system. It is that good and different tubes only bring out its character more. The Ayon is a really good CDP even from a VFM point of view and i too feel that Usher speakers are highly overated.
Amit, From a Speaker point of view, glad you liked the Blumenhaufer, i loved it as well (Especially the fun 17). Proac is another brand you can try with the Leben, as the Response 1 SC is a very good speaker.

If it is an ATC you are looking for please get in touch with Dr Bass he has a really good and thoughtfully configured setup based on the Symphonic Line + ATC..

 

[Colecutter]

Amit,

That's a good idea. Bring your Leben amp across one of these days and we can try it out with the ProAc Response 1SC.

 

[prem]

Hi Amit

I would suggest write to Srajan at 6moons. He has reviewed the Blumenhaufers, the Zus and the Rethm Saadhanas. He could probably give you a better insight into the differences between the 3 speakers.

I own the Rethms and have heard the Zu speakers. The Zu will rock better than the Rethms and has a fleshier midrange. The Rethms are more articulate, livelier and transparent. Never heard the Blumenhaufers.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Great advice Asit..maybe because this is very much in line with my view as well regarding Leben, Ayon and Usher..I would anyday prefer having the Leben as the heart of my system. It is that good and different tubes only bring out its character more. The Ayon is a really good CDP even from a VFM point of view and i too feel that Usher speakers are highly overated.
Amit, From a Speaker point of view, glad you liked the Blumenhaufer, i loved it as well (Especially the fun 17). Proac is another brand you can try with the Leben, as the Response 1 SC is a very good speaker.

If it is an ATC you are looking for please get in touch with Dr Bass he has a really good and thoughtfully configured setup based on the Symphonic Line + ATC..

Thanks Arj, I also like to keep Leben. Among the speaker, I listened to Fun 17, Proac 1sc. But both of them were not paired with Leben 300xs. Although, I will get chance of listening proAc 1sc with Leben at Soumen's place at Delhi. Do you think Fun 17 can be driven well with Leben 300 xs (15 WPC)? Another speaker contender is Omega super 6 alnico. As per the review it is a good pair with Leben. Have you any experience about Omega alnico speaker?

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Amit,

Please do not overestimate my ability of research in audio equipments, especially when these days most of the hours of a day I am spending at office. If I happen to find something more than already noticed and heard about the speakers being talked about, I sure will let you and others interested know. Speakers are a very real thing, and research alone could at most let you shortlist some, but not much more than that. You could say I took a long shot with the Zu speakers, just hoping against hope that somebody would pop up with some news about them in India. If not for anything else, at least if we mention and perhaps also discuss a few such brands, somebody may notice the interest and go for a dealership.

Yes square_wave, I was talking about the Soul Super Fly speakers. Their nominal impedance is 16 Ohm, but can take also amps like the Leben CS300 with 8 Ohm taps (as pointed out in their website). The Leben is listed as one of the amps in their website they have voiced these speakers for. BTW, I think the Leben CS300 can also be ordered with an optional 16 Ohm tap if desired. But that is irrelevant once already procured.

Regards.

Yes Asit, please forgive me for asking you to put hours for research for me. I am really sorry. I shouldn't have asked it. But I have no doubt about your research ability.

I am in touch with Santosh (SKR in HFV) now-a-days for helping me out of my dilemma. He also suggested about Zu Soul speaker and this speaker got Class 'B' rating in Stereophile.

But one thing is very true, speakers are very real thing and can be decided only after listening. Problem is that in India, Zu Soul, Omega alnico etc. speakers have very little chance to listen to. And a blind purchase of a speaker is too much risky. I may have to trust some reliable ears who have listened to these speakers in comparison to BE-718.

 

[ajay124]

@amitnoida
'I may have to trust some reliable ears who have listened to these speakers in comparison to BE-718.'
Sorry to add a contra note here.There's nothing wrong in taking advise.Everone does it and there is a goldmine of information to be tapped on the forum.
But trusting someone else's ears/opinions,no matter how reliable,would have you punching the upgrade button very soon again.Ultimately its about using your hard earned cash wisely and only after you are personally convinced by what you have read and preferably heard.