Which is BEST?..Oppo 980/981/983 ?

thevortex said:
Regardless of how we connect the Receiver and the DVD player - if we use 'Source Direct' would not the DVD do all the work? And if we use 'Pure Direct' would not the AVR do all the work?

'Source Direct', 'Direct', 'Pure Audio', 'Pure Direct' are various terminologies introduced in the AVRs in the recent past. All these terminologies are relevant only for two channel stereo. When you have connected the DVD Player to the AVR using two Analogue RCA connectors, and you play a Redbook CD, the DVD Player does the DAC conversion and sends the data in analogue form. The AVR just amplifies it for the speakers. What these terminologies mean is that in the AVR, the signal path for two channel stereo is reduced for purity, and many AVRs switch off all video circuitry and most of the display also.

Two channel audio can also be transferred through HDMI, coaxial, and optical in digital form for the AVR to process.

For multichannel audio, the method chosen depends upon the connection. If you connect using coaxial, optical or HDMI, the DVD does not do anything. All audio processing is done by the AVR. If you connect and choose multi analogue connections, the audio processing is done by the DVD Player and the AVR just amplifies.

thevortex said:
Also in your above example - for DVD Audio one cannot rely on HDMI connection. So how would we connect to the DVD and the Receiver? Do we need to switch from HDMI to Coaxial manually or should we have both connected at the same time?

The restriction is with coaxial and optical for multichannel audio. HDMI has no restriction. You need not do anything manually. You can actually have a set up where all the connections are done - RCA, HDMI, coaxial or optical. Depending upon what kind of disk your are using, you can set the source in the AVR. Actually unless you are very finicky, a single HDMI connection will work the best for all types of data.

As I said somewhere else, whether to use the AVR or the DVD Player for audio decoding will depend upon the models. If you are using an entry level DVD Player, just use an HDMI and leave all the decoding to the AVR. If you are using a high end DVD Player, you can to experiment between the two and decide which one you like. Then you use that unit to decode.

thevortex said:
And finally I have heard a lot about Receivers having the capability to deliver LPCM or Linear PCM - what is that supposed to do? And how do we use it? Is this relevant when listening to Audio CD's?

LPCM is a methodology to encode audio in digital form. The term PCM, is more general and is a digital representation of analogue signal, and its transmission. LPCM has become more prevalent with the advent of True HD, and DTS HD. When an AVR has LPCM capabilities, it means that the AVR can receive and decode multi-channel audio streams. LPCM is usually transferred through HDMI.

Cheers
 
Thats as clear an explanation as I will ever get, Venkat. But I will need to go through this with my AVR in mind and see how I can actually apply the learning that is there.

I am still wondering as to what would be better than the DAC on my AVR (Marantz SR4001). Whether an Oppo 980 would actually add more to the music and is worth setting as the source when connected to my AVR? And since I am not using an LCD or Plasma TV, would connecting the DVD to the AVR through Coaxial would bring the DVD into the picture or would still mean that the AVR does all the processing? In that case, however can I leverage the advantage of a better player? In this case, I will still connect the DVD through Coaxial to the AVR, but if you say that this means that only the AVR does all the work, how will I leverage the power of the DVD player?

I am probably missing something here, but I am sure you can point me in the right path as always.
 
Thevortex,

Do you have an Oppo 980?

Well let me see if I can make this clearer?

1. If you send data in digital form to the AVR through HDMI, coaxial or optical. The AVR is doing the grunt work.

2. If you are send data in analogue format (2 channel or multi channel RCA connections) the DVD Player is doing the grunt work.

I hope that is clear.

Cheers
 
Thevortex,

Do you have an Oppo 980?

Well let me see if I can make this clearer?

1. If you send data in digital form to the AVR through HDMI, coaxial or optical. The AVR is doing the grunt work.

2. If you are send data in analogue format (2 channel or multi channel RCA connections) the DVD Player is doing the grunt work.

I hope that is clear.

Cheers

Yes, I have had somebody buy the Oppo 980 for me and should shortly receive it.

So, based on what you say, I should have one connection (coaxial/optical) for movies and another for music? Between the Oppo's DAC and my AVR's DAC, is there a clear winner? I am not able to find out what the exact DAC model is that is being used in the Marantz. All I know is that both of these equipment use Cirrus Logic DACs.
 
b
Anand:

To answer your question, you have to understand a few things. There are two ways of sending digital multi channel data from the DVD Player to the receiver - Bitstream and PCM. Bitstream has been around for some time and you can use either coaxial or optical cable for this. The only issue with bitstream is that is a compressed format and could lose some data. PCM on the other hand is uncompressed and a good DVD can send this across as RAW format for your AVR to decode. Till some time ago, sending PCM has been a bit tricky as it needs huge bandwidth. So if you had an decent DVD Player, you allowed the player to do the decoding and sent the data in analogue form through either 6 or 8 RCA cables. But HDMI 1.3 has solved that. HDMI has enough bandwidth to carry uncompressed data in it's raw form.

With the Oppo 981 and the Onkyo 705, you can send data either through bitstream or PCM. Any of the methods of connection will work for Dolby and DTS and all it's variants. For SACD and DVD-A, there is a restriction. You cannot use coaxial or optical connection. This is copyright restriction which both Oppo and Onkyo follow diligently. For SACD and DVD-A you have to use either HDMI or multi channel analogue RCA connections. If you use HDMI, the 705 will be doing the decoding. If you use analogue RCA cables, the Oppo player will be doing the decoding.

If you are using HDMI connection, here is what you have to do in the player.

In The Speaker Setup Page.
1. Down mix to 5.1 CH
2. Front Speaker to Large
3. Centre Speaker to Large
4. Surround Speakers to Large
5. Sub Woofer to On

In the Audio Setup Page
1. Set HDMI Audio to Auto
2. Set Digital Output to Raw

If you are using the 6 or 8 analogue audio cables, here is what you have to set:

1. In the Speaker SetupPage down mix to 7.1 or 5.1
2. Set the speaker settings as per the AVR
3. Enable or select multi-channel analogue outputs in your AVR.

If you are using coaxial or optical connections, in the Audio Setup Page, set Digital Output to RAW. This will ensure the original Dolby Digital and DTS audio stream will be sent to the receiver for decoding. It will also work for transfer of digital stereo data. As I said before it will not work for SACD or DVD-A.

Cheers

Thanks Audiodelic.

And as always, thanks Venkat for such a detailed response. I have learnt a lot and now also need your help to choose. I apologize if I am making you repeat anything.

a) Given all this, in my case, who do you think should do the decoding for better sound? Oppo 981 or 705? For redbook CDs, Dolby, DTS, DVD-A and SACDs is there a difference in your recommendation?

b) Bases on any of the options you suggest, can HDMI connection do the job as it seems to handle pretty much anything. Are the HDMI settings you suggest allow for the DVD player to do the decoding (assumung that is your recommendation for the a) above)

c) When I was using a Cambridge Audio DV99 player earlier, the sound was fantastic except for the voice - it was subdued in comparison to the ambience and surround sounds. I had to increase the overall sound a lot to clearly understand what is being spoken. But this further increased the other sounds. In fact, our neighbours have done one round of complaining. My level settings on the AVR for each channel are as follows:

Front : 0
Center : 3
Surround Left: 5
Surround Right:5
Subwoofer: 0

does this have anything to do with it? I tried increasing the center channel, which partially solves the issue. But was not sure how high you should keep it. DO I need to tinker with any other settings like "bass/treble" or equalizer?

Thanks in advance

regards
Anand S
 
thevortex said:
Yes, I have had somebody buy the Oppo 980 for me and should shortly receive it.

Great. That is one hell of a player you are getting. It is very very good for audio - both stereo and multichannel.

thevortex said:
So, based on what you say, I should have one connection (coaxial/optical) for movies and another for music? Between the Oppo's DAC and my AVR's DAC, is there a clear winner? I am not able to find out what the exact DAC model is that is being used in the Marantz. All I know is that both of these equipment use Cirrus Logic DACs.

Both the Oppo and the Marantz SR4001 have HDMI, so why don't you use that, and skip the coaxial or optical completely?

I would say both Oppo and Marantz are equally good at decoding, DSP, and DACs. Between these two models that you have, unfortunately since they are both good, you have to experiment to see which you like better.

I would suggest the following steps:

1. Use a good HDMI cable and connect the DVD Player to AVR
2. Also buy a decent stereo RCA interconnect for two channel audio, and use it connect the Oppo's Front/Mixed L&R sockets to the Audio In sockets of the AVR. Oppo will come with a RCA connector, but don't use that. It is a very cheap model. Oppo's HDMI cable is good, though.

For movies, and multi channel audio such as SACD and DVD-A just use the HDMI.

For two channel music, first use the HDMI and see if you like the sound. Then switch over to the RCA interconnect and see how the music sounds. Depending upon what you like, use that connection for music.

IF the difference between the HDMI and RCA interconnect is very high in favour of the Oppo, it may be worthwhile to experiment with a 6 cable RCA connector for multi channel audio. That is if the difference is too high. Else stick to the method I mentioned above.

Cheers

anands123 said:
a) Given all this, in my case, who do you think should do the decoding for better sound? Oppo 981 or 705? For redbook CDs, Dolby, DTS, DVD-A and SACDs is there a difference in your recommendation?

Unfortunately both the units are very good. Follow the same method I have suggested to TheVortex above.

anands123 said:
b) Bases on any of the options you suggest, can HDMI connection do the job as it seems to handle pretty much anything. Are the HDMI settings you suggest allow for the DVD player to do the decoding (assumung that is your recommendation for the a) above)

Yes, you can use an HDMI cable for all your audio and video processing.

No, when you use HDMI, the transfer is digital, and all the decoding will be done by the 705.

anands123 said:
c) When I was using a Cambridge Audio DV99 player earlier, the sound was fantastic except for the voice - it was subdued in comparison to the ambience and surround sounds. I had to increase the overall sound a lot to clearly understand what is being spoken. But this further increased the other sounds. In fact, our neighbours have done one round of complaining. My level settings on the AVR for each channel are as follows:

Front : 0
Center : 3
Surround Left: 5
Surround Right:5
Subwoofer: 0

does this have anything to do with it? I tried increasing the center channel, which partially solves the issue. But was not sure how high you should keep it. DO I need to tinker with any other settings like "bass/treble" or equalizer?

Bass, treble, equalizer have nothing to do with relative levels of the channels. Unfortunately again, you have to experiment with speaker level calibrations to find out what is the best combination. The settings for surround seems high (relatively) to me. Remember, in most 5.1 data, the sound in the surround channel will be subtle and irregular. Also Indian movies will have more sound in surrounds than Hollywood movies. If you see an Hindi movie and then switch to a English movie, you might feel there is something wrong. It is not. If you don't hear anything, it is mixed that way, and there is nothing wrong with your system. The best is to use a test DVD such as that of Avia, that will send test signals for both audio and video. If you cannot get this, use a very good DVD with extensive dialogues and set the channels to that. See if you can get an original of 'In the Line of Fire'. That movie has a lot of dialogues spoken at very low volume.

The center can be increased a bit more. The 705 should actually allow you to increase or decrease each speaker level while it sends a test signal. Another thing you can do is change the 'size' of the speaker settings. If the center channel is 'large', change it to 'small' and vice versa, and see what happens. You can actually reduce the relative speaker levels to a negative number if it is too loud (for example the front speakers).

The third thing you can do is fiddle with the speaker distance settings. This will also affect the relative levels.

Once you get the relative speaker setting right, an overall volume setting at 75-80 dB works well for me. I don't listen at very high volumes, and I have center channel at a relatively higher position.

Cheers
 
Venkat - I had mentioned before that I do not have either an LCD or a Plasma panel for a TV. So, HDMI is not in the picture as of now. That means that the only options open for me are the Coaxial and Optical - both of which would use only the AVR's capability right?

So, I need to have two connections - one Coaxial and one RCA interconnect to compare with - is this right?

Thanks again for your detailed posts. Do you by any chance know what is the exact model number of the DAC used on the Marantz SR4001?
 
Venkat - I had mentioned before that I do not have either an LCD or a Plasma panel for a TV. So, HDMI is not in the picture as of now. That means that the only options open for me are the Coaxial and Optical - both of which would use only the AVR's capability right?

So, I need to have two connections - one Coaxial and one RCA interconnect to compare with - is this right?

Thanks again for your detailed posts. Do you by any chance know what is the exact model number of the DAC used on the Marantz SR4001?

I am not sure I understand this. Even if you don't have a LCD or Plasma, since the AVR and DVD player both have HDMI, why can't you connect them using an HDMI cable. For TV connection you can use a component cable from the Oppo Player to the TV directly, and skip the AVR. The HDMI connection between the player and AVR will be used only for audio. Actually there is no harm in connecting the player to the AVR with an HDMI, and the AVR to the TV with a component.

I don't know the exact model of the Maratnz DAC. I shall do some research and let you know if I locate that information.

Cheers
 
Great. That is one hell of a player you are getting. It is very very good for audio - both stereo and multichannel.

Yes, you can use an HDMI cable for all your audio and video processing.
No, when you use HDMI, the transfer is digital, and all the decoding will be done by the 705.



Cheers

Thanks for all your inputs. I will try these and see how it goes.

I know I went for the 981 for picture quality, but hope it sounds good as well.


I read that the Oppo players are excellent as a transport only and not as a player. Is my understandng right that it means leaving the decoding to an external DAC?

regards
 
venkat/ others, any idea how the Oppo 980 would fare in comparison the CA 540D? I'd like to know separately for audio CD playback, and for video.

Keeping in mind my TV is only HD Ready, so 1080p is superfluous.
 
I am not sure I understand this. Even if you don't have a LCD or Plasma, since the AVR and DVD player both have HDMI, why can't you connect them using an HDMI cable. For TV connection you can use a component cable from the Oppo Player to the TV directly, and skip the AVR. The HDMI connection between the player and AVR will be used only for audio. Actually there is no harm in connecting the player to the AVR with an HDMI, and the AVR to the TV with a component.

I don't know the exact model of the Maratnz DAC. I shall do some research and let you know if I locate that information.

Cheers

Venkat - golly, how did I not think of this!! And it was right in front of me all this while. OK, the way I see it, I need to experiment between HDMI and RCA interconnects. I will do that and post back the results.

Thanks for explaining these utterly basic things patiently:)
 
anands123 said:
I know I went for the 981 for picture quality, but hope it sounds good as well.
I read that the Oppo players are excellent as a transport only and not as a player. Is my understandng right that it means leaving the decoding to an external DAC?

Where did you read that? The advantage the Oppo players provide is the specialised circuit they have built for audio decoding, DSP, and DAC. Of course, the 983 has one of the world's most advanced upscaling engine. Sigh! Oppo should give me some money for singing its praises.

Keep one thing in mind though. The Oppo palyers, for two channel music, will sound as good or better than Universal DVD players in it's price class. But a decent CDP will always sound better.

psychotropic said:
venkat/ others, any idea how the Oppo 980 would fare in comparison the CA 540D? I'd like to know separately for audio CD playback, and for video. Keeping in mind my TV is only HD Ready, so 1080p is superfluous.

I have not heard the CA 540D. But it is very well specified. It will be incorrect to say which is better unless someone auditions both side by side with the same equipment and speakers.

Cheers
 
That's the problem. I don't know if a place where I'd be able to compare the two!

I have not heard the CA 540D. But it is very well specified. It will be incorrect to say which is better unless someone auditions both side by side with the same equipment and speakers.

Cheers
 
1. The 980 has reasonable video upscaling using Mediatek chips. It has special circuitry for two channel music and has received nods from even Stereophile.
2. The 981 uses the same audio circuitry, but uses DCDi by Faroudja which is supposed to be better in video upscaling compared to the Mediatek chip. It also has DIVX certification though personally I don't see DVDs that have a zillion movies in them.

Eating your head Venkatji,

Is really 981 audio circuitry is same to 980?981 is not reffered for aud.
Is 981 st.aud is as good as 980?
 
Is really 981 audio circuitry is same to 980?981 is not reffered for aud. Is 981 st.aud is as good as 980?

Spiro, over the last 4 weeks, I have heard the 981 and the 983 both used as just CD Players. Though they are connected to different amps and speakers, both sound excellent to me. I can hardly make out any difference between the two. I have used the same CDs, and if there is any difference, it is beyond my ear's capacity to discern it.

Cheers
 
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