All this talk of equipment being neutral is plain meh. Anything recorded loses its character once fed through the microphone. A recorded medium even if played through a dCS, Tenor and a pair of Wilson Chronosonics all connected with stealth cables will sound as recorded as it should when compared to a live set up. It's just who colors them in what shade of color and we all differ in our preference for a particular shade if color. So no reviewer can make me like what I absolutely hate for he hears differently than I do. And I take reviews and comparisons by any individual with a pinch if salt.If I'm buying something I'm my reviewer. Amen.
Why colored music is preferred over neutral / natural sound
- Thread starter Hari Iyer
- Start date
so its all personal. So there is nothing like good sound or bad sound. It depends upon who is listening to the sound. For some the same sound will be bad, but for others the same sound can be very good. So are we saying subjective listening does not make any sense as its personal. So are objective measurements more reliable than the subjective counterpart as objective is based on some mathematical analysis which cannot vary with individual listening preferences. Still not sure what should be the reference (subjective or objective).
do we even know what to measure for it to be objective. some systems raise ones hair despite not having great measurements and some do the opposite despite good measurements.
So not sure if we even have enough of the right information to make an objective assessment !
Agreed, IMO most of the subjective parameters (e.g. resolution, tight bass, mellowness, detail, smooth, grainy highs etc) cannot have an equivalent and co-related objective parameter to measure and vice-versa. What is accurate step response or phase coherence equivalent subjective measurement? Atleast i dont know (is it smooth, mellowness). Also what does flat impedance response co-relate to subjective measurement( is it less grainy highs, resolution)?
Is there any cross-reference link between the two. Would like to know.
Measurements are the foundations people lay on which subjective listening can take place; which ultimately depends on one's choice of music, ears, room, equipment, budget, mood, recording, media, reason for listening. Both subjective and objective part of hobby need each other. How much depends on individual's inclination.
Regards.
Regards.
Harman had done a room correction comparison several years ago and reported their findings in a research paper. One of the findings was that listeners tended to prefer a perceived flat response. Since our hearing is not as sensitive in the low frequencies, this meant boosting the bass until it sounded the same level as the rest of the frequency range.
So it's not like we prefer deliberately coloured sound, where some part of the frequency range is out of balance with the rest. Instead, we prefer flat neutral sound, or what we THINK is flat neutral sound, where all the frequencies appear to be roughly the same level. The measured response might be anything but flat, but the listener doesn't know that.
So it's not like we prefer deliberately coloured sound, where some part of the frequency range is out of balance with the rest. Instead, we prefer flat neutral sound, or what we THINK is flat neutral sound, where all the frequencies appear to be roughly the same level. The measured response might be anything but flat, but the listener doesn't know that.
Another point which everybody is missing is sound preference change with age , because we tend to loose our hearing ability with age. The problem is a younger person eg 18 to 25 year old will have a far better listening ability over a person who is over 50 years of age. An older person will prefer mellower sounding equipment as his brains won't support too much excitement while it's vice versa for a young guy. Neither will the old man match the young man's ability to dig in to details more easily , even more so in the higher frequencies. So there are lot of parameters to be taken to reach the conclusion. I would say sound or the correctness of it is all very very personal , hence so many brands or so many shades. Look at it like a shade card there's one for everyone. Pick your favourite color. There's nothing that's neutral when it's reproduced sound. It's fairy dust as they say.
i would request you to look up the Fletcher Munson Curves which corroborates about what both of you have mentioned
all the measurements we do or even could do measure only how the sound out of a Loudspeaker is.
the problem is that Listening does not end here..these same waves reach a persons ear and then get converted into signals for a brain and each frequency is heard at a very different loudness hence a flat response does not really mean that the brain will hear it as flat...and Each ear does this differently ie has a different curve.
you can test your own sensitivity here
Take any decent amp and speaker. Attach a microphone to the amp. Sing or play an instrument. The music will sound very immediate and alive. Now remove the mic and attach your source and play some recorded material. The problem starts 
My 2 cents.
1. Music & Sound of music are two different things. What's the percentage of listeners who listen to music to make sense to them in a academical way? Less than 1% I think, most of them who listen to music, aren't much bothered about what should actually be the sound of particular music. The average music listener attributes good system basically to the lower frequencies which are loud enough to be perceived comparatively well along side the higher frequencies.
The thump adds the glamor to the sound apart from gracious vocals & lyrics. We'd definitely like to perceive something above routine to find it interesting (glamorus or entertaining) . So the glamor factor is catered by coloration of the sound which is commercially viable.
2. The final sound output is dependent on so many variables, but the emotional relevance of the music/lyrics matters a lot for the average listener and that decides their overall experience.
The preference of certain type of system may not be universally true, From a single listener perspective as well. I may like a neutral sounding system when I'm relaxing or critically listening. I'd love a warm music with added thump when I am exercising or partying with friends at home. Would love a soft melodious system without all the details, during a candle light dinners or sipping wine with a old friend etc.
So preference of my ideal system would change with my mood and I'd expect a flexibility in a system to cater to the changing needs. A totally neutral, reference system would be useless for me, if it doesn't have the headroom to color the sound according to the emotional needs. Since we don't listen to the music in a neutral mood & for academical purposes most of the time, coloring becomes essential to suit the mood.
Can a system be made to produce 100% pure sound ? Yes it can be, but like a totally pure gold can't be used for making ornaments, totally pure sound won't satisfy the emotional needs of the listener, who intends to enjoy the music.
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1. Music & Sound of music are two different things. What's the percentage of listeners who listen to music to make sense to them in a academical way? Less than 1% I think, most of them who listen to music, aren't much bothered about what should actually be the sound of particular music. The average music listener attributes good system basically to the lower frequencies which are loud enough to be perceived comparatively well along side the higher frequencies.
The thump adds the glamor to the sound apart from gracious vocals & lyrics. We'd definitely like to perceive something above routine to find it interesting (glamorus or entertaining) . So the glamor factor is catered by coloration of the sound which is commercially viable.
2. The final sound output is dependent on so many variables, but the emotional relevance of the music/lyrics matters a lot for the average listener and that decides their overall experience.
The preference of certain type of system may not be universally true, From a single listener perspective as well. I may like a neutral sounding system when I'm relaxing or critically listening. I'd love a warm music with added thump when I am exercising or partying with friends at home. Would love a soft melodious system without all the details, during a candle light dinners or sipping wine with a old friend etc.
So preference of my ideal system would change with my mood and I'd expect a flexibility in a system to cater to the changing needs. A totally neutral, reference system would be useless for me, if it doesn't have the headroom to color the sound according to the emotional needs. Since we don't listen to the music in a neutral mood & for academical purposes most of the time, coloring becomes essential to suit the mood.
Can a system be made to produce 100% pure sound ? Yes it can be, but like a totally pure gold can't be used for making ornaments, totally pure sound won't satisfy the emotional needs of the listener, who intends to enjoy the music.
Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
The same live performance in different auditoriums sound different
LOL
Unamplified acoustic instruments in a good concert hall is oft-stated as the reference to which reproduced music must be compared.
Just one caveat: one's seat decides how one perceives the music. I had the misfortune to sit in the third last row of a very large concert hall for a full-sized orchestral performance. The music sounded distant and I simply couldn't hear the finer nuances in the softer passages in the music. I know those details are there because I happened to be familiar with the piece of music. It sounded like a very deep sound stage, which it actually was from my seat.
In the same hall, the third row sounded overwhelming for me. No wonder some call it the nosebleed section
It was almost like listening from the conductor's perspective - one can hear every detail but the sheer amount of information incoming was difficult to process. I'm guessing somewhere like the 15th row would be most balanced for this hall. On the other hand, at a small hall that supports only chamber-sized orchestras, I've consistently liked the sweet spot on the third row. Second row didn't sound good. Neither did fourth.
The golden sheen of massed violins in this small hall is magical, almost dripping like honey. I've never heard a music system that even comes close to reproducing this kind of tonality.
What I'm trying to say is each concert hall has a sweet spot, or perhaps "sweet area" where one can truly hear balanced tonality while not missing every small micro dynamic nuance.
Joshua, what you are saying is that even within the Hall, the sound changes depending where u sit .. I do agree , but look at it -the same sound varies by hall, where you sit and the person itself so the so called neutral and real sound is a unicorn ! I.e. A mythical creature
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so the so called neutral and real sound is a unicorn ! I.e. A mythical creature Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
...the same sound varies by hall, where you sit and the person itself
Recently six friends came back from the recently concluded High End Show in Munich. Listening to what each felt (at an informal get-together that stretched to 1:30 AM) was top 5 sound of the show, worst sound of the show, etc., felt like hearing the story of the proverbial Six Blind Men and the Elephant. It was amply clear that each listened differently, for different aspects of audio. Neutrality be damned
Personal preference is what rules and decides the buying decision. Personal taste developed and zealously cultivated over a long time is not easy to forsake.
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See this youtube video about how different the same drum sounds in different locations. The drum sounds so different in different locations that if listening with eyes closed, we would think it was different instruments.
This is an extreme example as drums are notoriously finicky in terms of room interaction - so much so that bands would sometimes choose certain studios or studio rooms just so the drums could sound a certain way to their ears.
The other thing that goes completely ignored in an audiophile discussion is electronic music. In many audio discussions, the focus becomes almost exclusively on live recordings, acoustic instruments mostly used in jazz and classical. In my humble opinion, this is doing injustice to music itself. Electronic music, amplified music, deliberately distorted music, studio recorded music, post processed music - i feel they all deserve to be treated equally. A good music system should try and replay the "original intent" of the band. It is such a loose term though!
This is an extreme example as drums are notoriously finicky in terms of room interaction - so much so that bands would sometimes choose certain studios or studio rooms just so the drums could sound a certain way to their ears.
The other thing that goes completely ignored in an audiophile discussion is electronic music. In many audio discussions, the focus becomes almost exclusively on live recordings, acoustic instruments mostly used in jazz and classical. In my humble opinion, this is doing injustice to music itself. Electronic music, amplified music, deliberately distorted music, studio recorded music, post processed music - i feel they all deserve to be treated equally. A good music system should try and replay the "original intent" of the band. It is such a loose term though!
Here the OP was stating that he designs his speakers to match his live experience of direct human vocal or instrument playback to his ear experience.
Here he has to take into account the quality of the recording medium and also the environment which unless it is dead will add what is termed as coloration.
So using that as a basis to design speakers is not the right starting point at all because the colouration of the recording is not fixed but a variable.
Major speaker manufacturers design their speakers based on measurements done in dead environments for extreme accuracy and to get the flattest response.
For studio application, they usually prefer the flattest response possible to suit the application of the sound engineer.
But for home application, the final design will depend on the house curve the manufacturer bases it on.
For home listeners who want to enjoy music, every company has its own philosophy of a variation from the flat response which is loosely termed as 'House Curve' It is more a perceived flat response as opposed to the measured flat response.
It is known fact that companies spend big time on research to know how a common man perceives music and its genres.
That is where the unique signature of the speakers made by each company comes in as each have their own tweaked response or house curve.
At one time it was even jokingly said that it was the sales team that started to influence the speaker signature based on feedback from its dealers, sales network and the success of rival products.
BOSE was smart to realize that more than 90% of its customer base liked more colour and managed to deliver it by wrapping average products in lifestyle wrapping at huge margins.
This is also common to advanced DIYers who use RTA tools to design their speakers. REW and such softwares allow simulation of house curves after a flat response has been achieved.
This house curve is usually the outcome of the tweaks done from the measured flat response and using the ears as a final tool.
This house curve can also be termed as colouration.
Here he has to take into account the quality of the recording medium and also the environment which unless it is dead will add what is termed as coloration.
So using that as a basis to design speakers is not the right starting point at all because the colouration of the recording is not fixed but a variable.
Major speaker manufacturers design their speakers based on measurements done in dead environments for extreme accuracy and to get the flattest response.
For studio application, they usually prefer the flattest response possible to suit the application of the sound engineer.
But for home application, the final design will depend on the house curve the manufacturer bases it on.
For home listeners who want to enjoy music, every company has its own philosophy of a variation from the flat response which is loosely termed as 'House Curve' It is more a perceived flat response as opposed to the measured flat response.
It is known fact that companies spend big time on research to know how a common man perceives music and its genres.
That is where the unique signature of the speakers made by each company comes in as each have their own tweaked response or house curve.
At one time it was even jokingly said that it was the sales team that started to influence the speaker signature based on feedback from its dealers, sales network and the success of rival products.
BOSE was smart to realize that more than 90% of its customer base liked more colour and managed to deliver it by wrapping average products in lifestyle wrapping at huge margins.
This is also common to advanced DIYers who use RTA tools to design their speakers. REW and such softwares allow simulation of house curves after a flat response has been achieved.
This house curve is usually the outcome of the tweaks done from the measured flat response and using the ears as a final tool.
This house curve can also be termed as colouration.
Interesting thread.
In my humble opinion, its a matter of personal taste. Say for example in photography the latest fad is HDR. Some people love it while some hate it. I think if an image is rendered in HDR in a way which makes it obviously artificial, it hurts good taste. But then, HDR has its own uses especially if used properly. I have observed that for a novice audience, an average HDR shot is more appealing than a much better single exposure shot which is lot more realistic. This is where the purists come in who can understand whats gone behind the scene...
Similarly for music, when you say its colored, almost all audio today is manipulated to certain extent. Even at a live concert, you hear the sound via a plethora of electronic equipment like amps, speakers, mixers and what not. So even that is technically "colored".
Speaker manufacturers design the speakers to sound in a certain way which they feel is the best (hopefully
hyeah and have a unique sound signature. The room acoustics also plays a major part in the dynamic range and the overall audio quality ( e.g. Bose speakers sound way better in their showroom than they actually do at home 
). The closest and flattest sound reproduction is perhaps achieved by studio monitors which audio engineers use to mix the sound. But how well they will sound in an untreated room and will it be actually enjoyable?
I guess there is no silver bullet and its every man to his own taste.
In my humble opinion, its a matter of personal taste. Say for example in photography the latest fad is HDR. Some people love it while some hate it. I think if an image is rendered in HDR in a way which makes it obviously artificial, it hurts good taste. But then, HDR has its own uses especially if used properly. I have observed that for a novice audience, an average HDR shot is more appealing than a much better single exposure shot which is lot more realistic. This is where the purists come in who can understand whats gone behind the scene...
Similarly for music, when you say its colored, almost all audio today is manipulated to certain extent. Even at a live concert, you hear the sound via a plethora of electronic equipment like amps, speakers, mixers and what not. So even that is technically "colored".
Speaker manufacturers design the speakers to sound in a certain way which they feel is the best (hopefully
hyeah and have a unique sound signature. The room acoustics also plays a major part in the dynamic range and the overall audio quality ( e.g. Bose speakers sound way better in their showroom than they actually do at home ). The closest and flattest sound reproduction is perhaps achieved by studio monitors which audio engineers use to mix the sound. But how well they will sound in an untreated room and will it be actually enjoyable? I guess there is no silver bullet and its every man to his own taste.
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I scanned through the posts past 3 days old and feel that there are many constraints/ factors both passive and active that influence sound. Even to say some particular sound is good or bad, the listener should have had exposure to various types of gadgets, rooms, setups, environments, venus to even qualify to judge a particular product.
ANALOGY: Even to say a particular restaurant food is good or bad, the sayer should have dined atleast at 30 to 40 restaurant to make this conclusion else he does not qualify for that. Just eating at 2 or 3 restaurant and saying that the food is good does not qualify for that statement. That too for his own taste buds. So is with Audio Gadgets at a particular price point.
So does that again mean subjective analysis i all very personal and does not have any meaning given the reasoning in the posts. Secondly does objective measurement do any help in analyzing at all.
Do any potential buyers of music gear demand a demo at home to make a buying choice or decision or do the dealers even consider that even for a nominal fee. It better to pay a nominal fee for a home demo rather than be stuck with a product you dont like later.
ANALOGY: Even to say a particular restaurant food is good or bad, the sayer should have dined atleast at 30 to 40 restaurant to make this conclusion else he does not qualify for that. Just eating at 2 or 3 restaurant and saying that the food is good does not qualify for that statement. That too for his own taste buds. So is with Audio Gadgets at a particular price point.
So does that again mean subjective analysis i all very personal and does not have any meaning given the reasoning in the posts. Secondly does objective measurement do any help in analyzing at all.
Do any potential buyers of music gear demand a demo at home to make a buying choice or decision or do the dealers even consider that even for a nominal fee. It better to pay a nominal fee for a home demo rather than be stuck with a product you dont like later.
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