why tons of commercial speakers sound like crap

Measurements are very dependent on the room acoustics, placement and measurement equipment and location. The same set of speakers will provide very different charts guaranteed! I would look for established sources for measurement results rather than one offs. There is a great truth that DIY provides VFM and satisfaction over most commercial products but how many of us have the manufacturing option, skill and perseverance to build that great pair?
 
Measurements are very dependent on the room acoustics, placement and measurement equipment and location. The same set of speakers will provide very different charts guaranteed! I would look for established sources for measurement results rather than one offs. There is a great truth that DIY provides VFM and satisfaction over most commercial products but how many of us have the manufacturing option, skill and perseverance to build that great pair?

I agree about the speaker placement and measurement aspect. I will be building my first commercial TL bookshelf speakers with lots of perseverance and skills .
 
Measurements are very dependent on the room acoustics, placement and measurement equipment and location. The same set of speakers will provide very different charts guaranteed! I would look for established sources for measurement results rather than one offs. There is a great truth that DIY provides VFM and satisfaction over most commercial products but how many of us have the manufacturing option, skill and perseverance to build that great pair?

Many diyers take these things out of the equation by measuring in the open air. no reflections except for the ground plane.

you dont have to design speakers. just copy the design:)
 
I am not so sure if I have the right or the understanding to write on this thread - yet I shall put my 2 cents down, I hope I am forgiven for the mis-givings;

a]
Commercial Loudspeaker Manufacturers - 100 % know how to make 'flat' measuring speakers - it is rather 'easy'

b]
Most Studio Speaker Manufacturers make 'very flat' frequency response speakers.

c]
If All speakers were made to 'flat' parameters - then most would sould very very close to each other.

d]
Why do Commercial Loudspeaker Manufacturers make speakers that may or may not measure flat ? Take the example of Wilson Audio. Most of the speakers that Dave Wilson makes are a 'bit bass or mid bass heavy' !
Why ? His largest market is USA & they have wooden houses - they need a 60 to 120 hertz bass boost. Therefore the speaker is 'tuned' for a 3 to 6 dB 'hump' in its frequency response.

e]
All speaker makers - tune their speakers - in a particular manner. This is done for their 'house' sound. They are all 'selling a flavour' !!

f]
The issue of importance here is to :-

1]
Choose a speaker of your liking

2]
Pair it 'appropriately' [Tube or Solid State - maybe a mix]

3]
Place it in a well made room - set up i.e.

4]
Fine Tune the speaker 'position' [rear wall & side walls]

5]
Provide appropriate power supply & ensure that all connections are done well & cable is 'routed' in the correct manner.

6]
Give enough time for speaker 'burn in'

Once all this has been done - then decide if the speaker is made well or sounds right etc. Is it the sound that you like / prefer etc.

Always remember - to make a speaker that measures 'flat' is not easy - however it is not as difficult as people make it out to be either....

Yes, Cost of Manufacture viz - a viz Selling price is a factor of 10 - that is a bit sad - I do accept.....

A Speaker that cost a manufacturer US $'s 200/- to make [cost price] has a Suggested Retail Price of about US $'s 2,000/-
This needs to take into account - Show Cost - Advertisement Cost - Distributor Margin - Dealer Margin - Local Area Magazine Advertisement Cost - Review Cost - Showroom Rent - Demo Charges - Audio Gear buy back cost - etc. etc.

Hence, DIY is always cheaper - all those extra costs are 100 % avoided.
The only downside is lack of top end cabinet making facility & no test & measuring facility - software 'Clio' etc may not be present & no Anachoeic Chamber etc. So the cake may be half baked - I feel !! :indifferent14:
 
As I said, listener preference. Flat isn't enjoyable. .

I choose to differ here.

When you listen to - FLAT -undistorted (meaning unamplified) live music, it sounds enjoyable. If music equipment ( speakers or otherwise ) can sound like the same, why would people have a problem with it ?

It is not as simple eh...!!!
 
A Speaker that cost a manufacturer US $'s 200/- to make [cost price] has a Suggested Retail Price of about US $'s 2,000/-
This needs to take into account - Show Cost - Advertisement Cost - Distributor Margin - Dealer Margin - Local Area Magazine Advertisement Cost - Review Cost - Showroom Rent - Demo Charges - Audio Gear buy back cost - etc. etc.

Hence, DIY is always cheaper - all those extra costs are 100 % avoided.
The only downside is lack of top end cabinet making facility & no test & measuring facility - software 'Clio' etc may not be present & no Anachoeic Chamber etc. So the cake may be half baked - I feel !! :indifferent14:

Well stated!

A hybrid approach is some of the smaller shops that avoid several of these costs (but will still be more expensive than DIY, of course). Beautiful / good cabinets are a bonus, and the speakers sound quite neutral. Measure fairly flat too. Whether you like that or not is, of course, anybody's guess :)

SongTower specifications

Sierra Tower Bamboo Loudspeaker
 
Consider the bokeh effect in photography. Our eyes don't have the capability to produce a sharp focus or a shallow defocus to produce selective blurring in our eyesight. The camera's optics can do such tricks. Nevertheless, it looks beautiful and artistic. Is it real? No. But that doesn't take away its beauty.

Similarly, we like many things in music reproduction that are not real. Not real as in not an exact fascimile of the original.

Members who have experience of listening to studio monitors may like to chip in with their experience of how music sounds on flat-response studio speakers.

My point being: some amount of distortion isn't a bad thing.
 
People go by brand names.

The manufacturers are not idiots to give a higher cost component, when you can't really distinguish ...

Besides, there are high salaries to be paid to VPs and other extremely useless (but kept only for MIS and reporting) posts in the organizations.
 
I choose to differ here.

When you listen to - FLAT -undistorted (meaning unamplified) live music, it sounds enjoyable. If music equipment ( speakers or otherwise ) can sound like the same, why would people have a problem with it ?

It is not as simple eh...!!!

Respected Sir,

You are 100 % correct.

However, any instrument will 'take the sound of the room' - so to speak.

Let me give you a 'bold' example; If I may :-

Take a Strad Violin.
Played by a 'master'
If that Violin is played in a Concert Hall / Church / Bathroom [same person - same instrument] will sound different in all 3 rooms.

Therefore, what you listen to - unamplified & unmiked is not always the same.
Therefore the 'flavour'
This imparts the 'sound we like' as individuals to what we listen to.....:eek:
 
Respected Sir,

You are 100 % correct.

However, any instrument will 'take the sound of the room' - so to speak.

Let me give you a 'bold' example; If I may :-

Take a Strad Violin.
Played by a 'master'
If that Violin is played in a Concert Hall / Church / Bathroom [same person - same instrument] will sound different in all 3 rooms.

Therefore, what you listen to - unamplified & unmiked is not always the same.
Therefore the 'flavour'
This imparts the 'sound we like' as individuals to what we listen to.....:eek:

Correct. I agree with you. There are two things that competent speaker designers look for.

1. It needs to work in rooms

If you get a pro sound horn into a typical room, and try to play music on them at unamplified music levels using some pro amp, then they will not sound so nice. Keep the same speaker in an open field and sit the listener 25 feet away, it will suddenly start sounding very nice.

2. It needs to sound true to music

This is where we venture a bit into the dark art of speaker design. From what I have understood, most folks with a technical background can make a speaker which measures well if his effort is focused and well intentioned. But there is no guarantee that such speakers will sound good. Many a times, I have heard competent speaker designers saying that a well measuring speaker is where you start . There are many years of learning and careful choices which happens after this stage which finally results in a speaker which can evoke the same feelings in a listener which he experiences when he listens to live music .

The acid test is the listener.
 
When you listen to - FLAT -undistorted (meaning unamplified) live music, it sounds enjoyable. If music equipment ( speakers or otherwise ) can sound like the same, why would people have a problem with it ?

It is not as simple eh...!!!
Why indeed? But it isn't that simple!

Last week I downloaded and listened to a recording (it was only 128 MP3 too!) of a concert that I attended a few months ago. The feature of this concert was that, so far as the audience present were concerned, it was entirely unamplified. Mics were used for recording, but there there were no speakers in the hall at all. It was a solo carnatic violin concert.

Which was the best experience to listen to? In many ways, the recording was! It had all the fullness and richness of tone which we associate with the violin, whereas the live experience only brought a rather thin sound to my ears, the venue being actually a little too large for the experience.

Of course, the "flat" unamplified performance is just as subject to the space in which it happens as any attempt by speakers to reproduce it. So what is flat? Are our ears conditioned to identify the PR-presented sound as being the natural sound of an instrument? The veena has become as attached to pickup and speaker as has the electric guitar, and its sound is certainly now defined by the combination, even if the overall performance may not be amplified.

This is, of course, as much a rant by a dissatisfied Chennai rasika as it is a comment on speakers and music reproduction. But ...it's all about music, isn't it?

I have been to most of a current series of concerts presented as unamplified. Some have worked very well, some not so well, depending on the artists and the venues. It is so rare, now, for artists to perform outside their homes. without amplification, that it is not really fair to expect that they will simply be able to adjust their technique. In every case, it has been a great experience to get away from the tyranny of the PA and the man on the mixer, even though it has sometimes made the audience work hard to hear.

In one case, in particular, I was astounded at the tones of the mridangam. The short, sharp, nam sound (the basic non-resonant sound of the index finger on the outer circle of the right side) was not nearly as short and sharp as all PA systems/speakers render it: there was such richness in hearing the whole stroke from attack through decay.

Most hifi listeners are not regular live music listeners. In cities like London, regular concert going is, sadly, an extremely expensive hobby. Consequently, it is only the few that, when they speak of high fidelity, have an actual good sense of what the fidelity actually is. That odd subset of us who are Chennai Carnatic concert goers can easily get better sound in our living rooms than that which we hear at most "live" performances --- and even the Western musicians often face bad acoustics in their venues.

So what do we do? We buy the sound that appeals to us. I'd say that my preference is for some warmth. This probably originates from my earliest days of music listening when even the radio had valves and the music came from a boomy Radiogram. However, in more recent years, when I hear those "flat" studio monitors I find the cleanness of the sound breathtaking. If and when I can afford to spend on speakers in the future, it is this direction I will take, even if I find it lacking in a little of the comfort element of a warmer sound. Lucky (or, hardworking is more likely the truth of it :eek:) are those who can experiment with such things.
 
The sound that we reproduce in our listening room is basically an illusion or image of the actual sound produced by the musical equipment. Illusion is only illusion and there are various ways to create it either sonic or visual.

Just imagine we are trying to reproduce the sound created by a four feet long thin guitar sting through a combination of speakers [the way they vibrate] . I don't think both are comparable.

So long as the speaker is creating a good illusion, we accept it as good sounding.

Of course the designer needs to tweak the speakers and deviate from flat frequency response to achieve the desired results [which is nothing but to create an image as near as the actual one]

Only my personal view, not to clarify anyone.:indifferent14:
 
@ Thad,

Agree with all that you have said.

I was specifically responding to the statement that Flat - un-distorted isnt enjoyable.

If the recording is good, a system which is Flat - un-distorted is definitely enjoyable because it will be close to the experience of live. If the recording is bad, the output will also be bad. This is the flip side of an accurate system.

Now making a system sound Flat - un-distorted in a room is a different challenge. It is a different discussion.
 
I think one person is referring to "flat" as in the flat frequency response curve of a speaker while the other person referred to "flat" as in off-key or the harmonics not lifting off ? :eek:hyeah:

-G
 
Very interesting thread.

I can only take liberty to speak of my experiences :) as everyone must be seeking some different sound.

What I feel about live vs reproduced music "experience". Here I feel "experience" is the keyword :)

Live concerts simply put have the advantage of being performed well... "LIVE". In front of you. It is spontaneous, often unpredictable. Done by artists who are humans just like all of us. So there is an element of surprise and things are unpredictable. You don't exactly know what is the next thing the expect. It is like an adventure and exploration of every note being sung/played :)
Key factors: Venue, audience, artists (and their personas and caliber and the very fact of hearing them live). So it is more of a holistic experience.
In this case I almost always prefer a clean and pure sound. Even if the music may not be 100% accurate (due to human voicing/playing) unlike post production done on recorded music done to covers up some anomalies/flaws.
It is what it is. It is real. Simple.

But at times there is music like digital/techno music which can be enhanced by certain music systems. I may tend to prefer a music system that can enhance the music in these cases. When just plain enjoying the thumping and digital notes is more rewarding. (Think some of the earlier songs of AR Rahman - "Hindustani", "Humse hai muqabla" or house music or trance) In such cases I may be least bothered about purity. Like AR Rahman would put it, he is looking for that "sound".
So in this case as it is anyway digital so the benchmark is not as obvious as opposed to listening to human voices and analog instruments like tabla, mridangam, etc.
I remember having heard a very highly reputed brand of speakers and another brand of speakers for some of the sample tracks. For some genres of music the other brand of speakers made the music sound much better than much highly reputed other branded speakers simply because they were designed that way. Each excelled in its own genre.

But it is true that when I think of the ultimate music system in my house I would imagine it to make me feel as if I was:
- attending a live classical concert or
- in a live rock concert
- listening to un-amplified performance
- in a club with trance music

That could be one of the reason why I just don't prefer certain components that have a biased/voiced sound inclined one way or they other. Because of the "awareness" that it would simply not sound that way in reality. So the mind screams "Wait! something is wrong somewhere! Or am I missing something!" :) and thinks there is some *flaw* in the system! :) Strange ways of the mind! :)

So all these point to one thing.. there is some learned experience which may need to be "unlearned" to see things in their true nature :)
I guess the whole objective is to come as close to the edge of being "REAL" which may be a completely different pursuit altogether. It could be a different path. :)

Just my thoughts really.. Take it or leave it ;)

Thanks for making me ponder on how I prefer to enjoy music... :)
 
Last edited:
There is only one way to gauge the accuracy of a system.
Play some instruments in your house.

Record it via "perfect" mic + interface.

Play it on your hi-fi system. This should match the actual sound.
In fact a very easy way of doing it is by playing guitar/violin (solo) and doing the above steps.


You cannot expect to recreate the "LIVE concert" atmosphere - simply because it was recorded at a different venue with different characteristics, and you are playing it in your home with entirely different acoustics.

If your home experiment succeeds - your speaker/playing system is flat.
 
You cannot expect to recreate the "LIVE concert" atmosphere - simply because it was recorded at a different venue with different characteristics, and you are playing it in your home with entirely different acoustics.

+1

So the game is to try and bridge the gap as much as possible within the acoustic room constraints. Many times it maybe fooling the mind to create a different room ambiance effect.

Like different DSP plugins that give the *perception* that sound is coming from "far away", "open lawn", "big hall".
After all trying to recreate music at home is all about fooling the mind into believing something is being played in real time whereas it is a recording of something back in time. (could be recorded decades old :) )
That is one beauty of recordings. A good recording could capture the time, mood and space. I remember hearing a tabla recording in which it was very clear that the ceiling height of the recording room was very high you could almost gauge the height of the room by hearing it. So I guess a good system should be ideally able to recreate the "space" as well although may not possible 100% of the times subject to limitations of the systems.
 
A speaker showing a Flat response in an anechoic chamber , will never give a flat response
in a room where there are near, mid and far reflections from furniture, floor ( Big Problem )
Walls, most speakers with Flat Anechoic Response will have 4 db suckout in 300 Hz range, plus other problems below 100 hz
if there are very reflective surfaces like glass, the upper mids will be dominating
as the waves from the speaker reflect around the add subtract depending on the phase
6-10 Db peaks are not uncommon for a speaker showing flat response in anechoic chamber, the peaks depend on the music being played also, which frequencies are prominent in the music etc, so flat response is concept that exists only in the mind, unless you turn the listening room into a sound lab, reflections play a very important part, I had Bose 301, which with Good Eqpt sounded absolute crap in one room
but taken to another room in the same house it sounds Enjoyable, resolution is very poor
but the warmth is there, wheras earlier is was muddy and totally blurred, no cymbals
could be heard, and replacing it with a small Monitor TI series JBL of 1984 vintage in
same position , with same electronics was as if a thick layer of Wax was removed from the Ears, but same 301 sounds Enjoyable, not transparent detailed or accurate , with
Cosmic Lab 3000 and Philips DVD Player
 
Flat response is necessity for hi-fi speaker. If they are boosting some frequencies then how are they different from others like creative/logitech? Used material horn,soft dome, kevlar etc might add its own color, which is fine. But frequency response at least should be proper.

Response SHOULD be flat because as many have said here, Speaker should reproduce the recorded sound. If user wants some boost/room acoustics correction/tone control he should be able to do that on his own. But speaker should not do that. These readings are insane! +/-3db is considered as good. But these graphs are way outward.

I had question earlier too. Speaker IS the ultimate weakest link in the chain. Electronics are far superior to that.

These readings are taken by experts, so its very likely that test environment was proper. It would be at least 95% accurate.
 
Last edited:
Going back to the thread in the first post,

Not all speakers with flat frequency response will sound good.
Not all speakers with non-flat frequency response will sound bad.
Not all speakers with flat frequency response will sound the SAME.
Not all speakers with flat frequency response will have flat response in YOUR room.
Speakers are not the only ones which contribute to flat fq response.

Unless you are going for a full blown music room with perfect acoustic treaments, it is better to buy the setup you like after home demo.
 
Get the Wharfedale EVO 4.2 3-Way Standmount Speakers at a Special Offer Price.
Back
Top