Will 51% FDI in retail sector bring cheers to all classes of society?

[avidyarthy]

Democracy is a farce in here .... most know it, but can do little about it. Democracy was a suicide immediately after Independence, but we accepted it or were made to accept by the few opportunists (Nehru led the pack) in the political circles of that era.

Instead of systemic reduction of the 'reservations' over time, there has been consolidation just to appease the few caste based 'pucca' vote banks so that they need not have to face the grind of the 'general' masses.

India needed a strong-armed military rule in 1947 for at least 20 years further on, led by personalities of the stature of Netaji Bose and Sardar Patel. It is the National Pride and discipline that we lack in whatever we do .... in addition to the swindlers we have in plenty amongst the political class who had been the main beneficiaries of this 'shortage'.

It is next to impossible to shove away "democracy" now. The system would not permit it. It has to be done away by force! And the 'force' has to be real strong with a capacity to liquidate any obstacles. Military intervention is the only answer! Yes, we have to do away with a lot of our so-called freedom etc etc etc ..... a generation would need to face its brunt to put the Indian train back on its tracks ........

 

[moktan]

Democracy is a farce in here .... most know it, but can do little about it. Democracy was a suicide immediately after Independence, but we accepted it or were made to accept by the few opportunists (Nehru led the pack) in the political circles of that era.



It is next to impossible to shove away "democracy" now. The system would not permit it. It has to be done away by force! And the 'force' has to be real strong with a capacity to liquidate any obstacles. Military intervention is the only answer! Yes, we have to do away with a lot of our so-called freedom etc etc etc ..... a generation would need to face its brunt to put the Indian train back on its tracks ........

isn't this what the Maoists in the jungles want to do precisely?

 

[gobble]

isn't this what the Maoists in the jungles want to do precisely?

I agree, any strict rules and laws or forcefull approach will be misused against the innocent just like sec498a and other laws. Even the recent censorship attempt saw the wrong websites being blacklisted. Try registering a police complaint and see ...

Better to take time even if takes 50 years longer but do it through judicious well thought out process.

--G0bble

 

[avidyarthy]

I shan't be there to see it .... feel it .... take pride in it ... so, whats the point?

Let it remain as it is ..... feel sorry on seeing the blatant wrong-doings, and turn your face away with murmured swearings of ... 'a few guys are spoiling the scene for this country' ....... patience rules

Yes, exactly .... try reading stuff on the Maoists and Naxalites (early 1970s). They had been pushed to a corner, hence, such acts. Are YOU not .... or you still need a push .... the gentle shove is not sufficient?

 

[asliarun]

First, I am always pleased (and surprised, actually!) that Indians really do not harbour bad feeling to us Brits. There are many ex-colonies in the world where the ex-colonisers are hated even several generations after independence. However true it may be that it was not all bad, I am shocked, though, when I find people claiming that the colonial era was good for India, albeit that India as such would not have existed without the British takeover and amalgamation of the princely states.

My history/economics is pretty poor (classes that I used to sleep in ) but I do know that Britain really did a double-whammy on India. First, looting it of everything it could, and second, destroying its remaining local industries such as textiles by imposing the import of its own cheaper products. There is stuff on the internet about India's net worth before and after colonisation, and India's place in world trade before and after. Stuff that I'd really like to be able to quote, but I'm just no good at remembering it.

Foreign capital has become a mantra, and a point that I seldom see raised is, what's wrong with Indian capital? There's surely plenty of it. In fact, Indian capital is buying foreign businesses now. There are Indian supermarkets, chain stores, etc: where is the need for foreign ones?

Thad, you bring a very interesting perspective. My take on this is that India, or the collection of kingdoms that we now call India, thrived not because of of its indigenous crafts, not because of its natural resources, but because of global trade.

The more *open* a country is, the more prosperous and progressive it will be in the long run. India's traditional strength, IMHO, was the ability of its traders to reach out to the rest of the world through sea routes, buy and sell products, establish relationships with even far flung countries, and absorb not just products but ideas, cultural nuances, and even religion. This is how Christianity came to India even before it reached mainland Europe.

What we have lost is our ability to be intrepid, to sail our boats in rough seas, to trade and learn about new cultures. If at all I fault the British, it is that they were the only invaders that did not assimilate with India. There was no give and take. I would postulate that their ego prevented them from being *open* and learning from all the countries they invaded, and they focused instead on petty baubles.

That is why I feel that China too will not last in the long run - although they are sublime traders, they are far too insular to do anything meaningful with it.

And that is why opening up our economy is a good thing.

 

[madurai1974]

protectionism in the name of nationalism does not make industries globally competitive. india needs to promote entrepreneurship in all industries as thats the way forward free trade will benifit india in the long run provided indian cos have a level playing field viz the indian firms are protected from dumping by chinese cos.

 

[doors666]

protectionism in the name of nationalism does not make industries globally competitive. india needs to promote entrepreneurship in all industries as thats the way forward free trade will benifit india in the long run provided indian cos have a level playing field viz the indian firms are protected from dumping by chinese cos.

So you mean to say protect our companies from the chinese but not from others.

Lots of industries need govt support and protection. e.g. we should protect a reva car maker and provide subsidies on that as in the long run, its a beneficial thing to the whole country on multiple issues. In the whole world, there are a very few airlines that are actually making profits in the long run, if any, most of them require some sort of assistance from the govt. In our country, a kingfisher, which is a very very fine airline btw (first time in my life I got food on an airline which didnt make me feel like puking, unparalleled service etc), is not given any help what so ever by the govt, which keeps pumping cash into that disgusting air india (they just got a dreamliner also). So much so that they pretty much let it die. Around the same time, our idiotic prime minister goes and pledges 10 billion dollars to the european union as financial aid (not loan), probably due to his master's voice.

About the quality of foreign companies, one very good example is the banking sector. Plenty of horror stories are the on the net by most of the foreign banks e.g. citibank, standard chartered bank and HSBC etc. Indian banks can teach a thing or two about banking to these world wide banking giants. Remember, banking is not about service, its about trust. I dont want an account with a banker that without my consent will take my money from my account (i think icici is also following them). Thats still called stealing and most of these banks are basically suited booted thiefs. No thanks, will stick to good old PSU banks.

And lets not even talk about insurance. I wonder how many proponents of FDI will put their money where their mouth is and go buy insurance from Max new york life or some such thing instead of going with LIC.

There are a lot of very bad things these foreign companies bring with them including thievery, deceit and dishonesty. Of course not all are like that.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I think this is brilliant for the country. Being a corporate myself, I am heavily in favour of corporatization and globalization. I honestly believe that the people of the country will benefit more.

How? Please stop to consider that you might be toeing the corporate line here. Also, again, globalisatio equals selling out to America, on American terms. If you want to know how global American globalisation really is, just try buying something from Amazon.com (Sorry, we are unable to delver to your address)

Politicians are screeming because of vote-bank politics. For all you know, you'd find our politicians and their families shopping at these outlets )

I'm sure they will. I'm sure also that, according to the system that (my theory) was bequeathed to India by the East India Company where every clerk, as well as working for the company, had their own cuts and their own side-businesses on the go, that some will be getting their share of the profits too.

I remember someone once asked gandhi what he thought of western civilization, he replied, good idea, when do you plan to start one. I personally dont like the dude, his intentions were good, but the policies were something i could never agree to. Many of our modern day problems can be placed at the door step of gandhi and nehru.

I heard that saying long before I even had much of a conception about India! I sometimes wonder what he might say today.

Thad, you bring a very interesting perspective. My take on this is that India, or the collection of kingdoms that we now call India, thrived not because of of its indigenous crafts, not because of its natural resources, but because of global trade.

The more *open* a country is, the more prosperous and progressive it will be in the long run. India's traditional strength, IMHO, was the ability of its traders to reach out to the rest of the world through sea routes, buy and sell products, establish relationships with even far flung countries, and absorb not just products but ideas, cultural nuances, and even religion. This is how Christianity came to India even before it reached mainland Europe.

What we have lost is our ability to be intrepid, to sail our boats in rough seas, to trade and learn about new cultures. If at all I fault the British, it is that they were the only invaders that did not assimilate with India. There was no give and take. I would postulate that their ego prevented them from being *open* and learning from all the countries they invaded, and they focused instead on petty baubles.

That is why I feel that China too will not last in the long run - although they are sublime traders, they are far too insular to do anything meaningful with it.

And that is why opening up our economy is a good thing.

Trading is a good thing. I think India had that proven before the Brits came along. Trading as an independent, profitable business is a good thing: selling out is not. Governments should not be selling India: they should be making India stand independently and Indian.

(Ohmygod, I'm doing my political-speech-rant thing )

 

[thatguy]

I heard that saying long before I even had much of a conception about India! I sometimes wonder what he might say today.

A quick digression. Just to give you an idea of how messed up the man was.

(You might already know this but) he advised Jews during Hitler's regime to practically commit suicide. Thankfully for them, the Jews are smarter than Indians. They rejected his advice and today they are a developed country successfully fighting one of the most pernicious war machine. Indians, on the other hand, bought into his nonsense and are still a backward third world country talking 'Aman ki Asha' with thugs and criminals.

Mr G wrote:
"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment."

Source: "The Jews In Palestine", a letter written in 1938.

He survived with all his stupidity because the British were a fundamentally decent people (you are free to disagree ). I really doubt the Germans, Spanish, Japanese or the Ottomans would have tolerated him.

 

[thatguy]

Democracy is a farce in here .... most know it, but can do little about it. Democracy was a suicide immediately after Independence, but we accepted it or were made to accept by the few opportunists (Nehru led the pack) in the political circles of that era.

Sir, democracy has pretty much run its course. It is no longer 'By the people, of the people, for the people'. It is domination by the fastest breeder. If section of the society can reproduce fast enough, it can game a democratic system.

In the US, the Hispanics are growing in number and (I believe) the whites will be less than 50% of the population by 2025. we will see how enthusiastic US will be about democracy after that (they are practical people, they will find some good alternative).

No longer worried about democracy dying in India. It is not sustainable in its current form.


Sorry, what was the topic again ...

 

[moktan]

the democracy that India practices is what is called the First Past the Post. this makes it possible for a party to be in power even without the majority of the votes . between 1951 to 1971 , there were five elections. the Congress won all of them with an average electoral share of just 45% even at the height of its popularity.
why did India adopt this model?one of the reasons has to do with the nature of India's freedom. The Raj was not overthrown. It transferred power (read bureaucracy, army,police) to the Congress. the Raj also bequeathed its tradition of representation. the type of referendum based 'real' democracy (with its provision to allow people to directly vote on policy initiatives, and even recall elected representatives by direct voting etc) as practised once in New Foundland and the Swiss Cantons was never an option for a complicated country like India. The Congress after the Independence had the twin object of continue remaining in power and also strengthening the Centrist hold on the polity. It did not hold elections till 1951.
In that context, Indian political parties have show remarkable ability to play by the rules. According to a contemporary political philosopher, democracy "'concerns above all, formal legalism: its minimal definition is unconditional adherence to a certain set of formal rules....Democracy means that, whatever electoral manipulation took place, every political agent will unconditionally respect the results.
i am not sure what else will work for India. The future however appears more confounding. The two centrist parties are weakening. Yesterday Nitish Kumar was reported to have said he would go with any one who would accord 'special status' to his State. Article 370 already provides for asymmetric federalism.
Perhaps we are moving to that unhappy state of affairs when much of the resources of the State will be spent in having a General election, once every two or three years.

 

[just4kix]

Intresting thoughts and views by many.

I often ask myself this question. People (like me) say that opening the retail sector will help in elimininating the middle men and the farmer will directly be connected with the reatilers. Potentially this means better rate to the farmers and cheaper goods to the consumer. Other say that large retailer will slowly kill the farmer because they will force the prices down by their money-muscle power. But does the condition today that exists guarantee a good price to the farmer. I often see in papers that so many hundreds of kilos of tomatoes had to be thrown away because there were no takers and then they rotted; so many bundles of corriander leaves was wasted away. The slightest fluctuation in conditions such as transporters strike, heavy rains, road jams, diesel price hike translates into a vertical jump in prices. Purely talking as a consumer, I do not see such things happen in the west. I used to live in the Boston area and we used to get two or three major snowstorms every year. These events did not result in an astronomical jump in prices of basic commodities.

As of today the retail stores purchase wholesale goods from intermediaries. Even though government has so called minimum price, this does not result in actuality. I have been associated with a large temple trust who provides subsidized 'prasad' meals to devotees. They buy in bulk from local vendors. The negotiated purchase price is below the standard price and there is a price freeze for three months at the minimum. Yet the vendors are happy to sell because of guaranteed purchase (and maybe the feeling that their produce is working like a form of donation to the diety). However, there are still middlemen who enjoy best of both worlds.

I do not think any informed and educated believes that the likes of Wal-mart, CarreFour, Tesco will enter India to help our farmers or Indians. Business exists to make money for the owners/shareholders. The question is will the situation be a win-win or win-loose?

Will the farmer benefit and become poorer still? Are the politicians who support don't care what happens but allowing FDI because they are getting a kickback from the large companies? Are those who are opposing FDI do so because the middlemen are contributors to their "coffers"?

I do not know the answer to it as I am not "connected" with the grass roots.

 

[avidyarthy]

You are somewhere missing the crucial point.

FDI is excellent in one scenario ... SINGLE BRAND ... on a single type of product only. Allow multiple players to come in. If it is of fruits, then, fruits only ...... if grocery, then grocery only .... if audio, then audio only. Multiple players would ensure right prices and service to consumers, alongwith satisfactory returns to our farmers. the retail infrastructure requirement too would be moderately sized. Yes, shake outs would happen over time, there too.

The MULTI-BRAND big timers are definitely not welcome. They would initially create a rosy scenario for both the consumers and farmers by their financial muscle. In other words, take deliberate losses initially. Once the customer base has shifted to their domain, thus wiping out the existing local small-time retail outlets (kiranas) .... then, their true colours would be exposed. By then, it would be too late for any changes to the system! This is exactly what happened in the US.

 

[alpha1]

The whole issue with democracy in India is the Someone else's problem syndrome.

India is too large and vast, and the we all know that one part of India doesn't really care about what happens in the other part.

Every national issue becomes someone else's problem, and hence no one cares about it and takes any action = FAILED DEMOCRACY.


Now regarding the topic of FDI in retail space, can the people who have real issues with FDI actually list out what negative points (to India whole, not few selected pockets of people) does it bring?

I read financial muscle being talked about quite often. Agreed. BUT. What have you the "aware" people done about the financial muscle of indigenous people ruining the country's economy? Why are you not talking about it in the same vehement tone?

 

[shankar]

@gobble, bravo :clapping:

Macaulay Putras of todays India needed this strong dose !

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I don't think we've touched on it here yet (might have missed it, a lot has been said ) but let me attack another myth of the big-corporate-store/FDI fans. It is that they bring choice to the consumer.

One usually hears this myth from corporate-type men (specifically men) who actually never go shopping, so they don't actually know what they are talking about.

Example: you want to buy a microwave oven. You go the local Tesco superstore. In the electrical section, do you find lots of models from a selection of manufacturers? No: you find a very limited selection of some unknown Korean brand which happens to be flavour of the month due to low cost to Tesco's buying department. Or you find their "own brand" which amounts to much the same thing.

Believe me, I'm a shopoholic. Yes, I even used to enjoy shopping in Tesco. Supermarkets of that kind do have their advantages to the consumer, but the propaganda needs to be looked at very critically.

 

[gobble]

Some parallels have been drawn with 1991. What happened in 1991 wasn't just FDI. FDI was a small part. What Manmohan/Rao did was to remove restrictions on local entrepreneurs.

Actually MMS gets all the false credit for this. The hard work of drafting and writing down the economic liberalisation package was done by Dr. Subramaniam Swamy and implemented by Rao's Govt that pushed it forward.

--G0bble

 

[doors666]

Actually MMS gets all the false credit for this. The hard work of writing down economic liberalisation package was done by Dr. Subramaniam Swamy and implemented by Rao's Govt that pushed it forward.

--G0bble

That is so true. most of the guts were shown by pvn rao. congress doesnt want to give credit to him, hence mms. Even in late 90s, he was completely ignored by congress as he, due to some of his good deeds, was reducing the brand value of the congi first family.

The question to be asked is why we needed to do liberalization in the first place, its because of 40 years of bad management of the country by the likes of nehru and indira gandhi that we had to pawn our family silver. So whatever was done by rao, mms etc was basically cleaning up the mess created by their predecessors. Congress is basically trying to claim credit for cleaning up their own shit:lol:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

That's politicians for you!

Even after a decade in power, you'll find the British ones blaming their predecessors for the state of things. At the next election, you find them making promises to do all stuff, and nobody thinks to ask them, "But, you've been in power all these years, if this stuff is important why didn't you do it before?"

 

[ranjeetrain]

"Please be careful. Modernise the retail but don't hand it over" - Keith Vaz

I told this to him last night and this morning he hit the headlines. I wonder why no one asks me what do I think! :lol: