Yamaha 863 for music

[sand64]

Hi folks

So here I am. Purchased Yamaha RX-V863 two weeks back and using it with my existing pair of BPL floorstanders. I am really thankful to members of this forum for their active support & help in clearing many technical aspects. I am a novice and this is my first Hi-fi purchase after 12 year's gap....my previos system is 'all in one' 75W rms x 2 BPL system with a pair of 3-way seperate floorstanders.

To further add, Yamaha x63 is a discontinued model, but musical amp. I prefered it over Denon, though it is very difficult to assess the quality of various music system thrown to you over a period of few hours during audition. It was also praised by many sr. members.

To cut the matter short, I set it up in 2 channel mode and found that yamaha has 'opened up' my BPL floorstanders i.e. sound stage has pronounced with good midrange. Earlier it was not so with my BPL amp. However I also noticed that music is somewhat lacking in 'body'. I mean the punch & rhythm of song is bit subduced, specially at low volumes........:sad: Why so????? At 110w rms power on each channel, there should not be any shortage of power to drive my 8 ohm floorstanders. Well perhaps this is what many of you folks suggested and summed up by madbullram "A 20k Music Setup will any-day blow a 90k HT setup irrespective of the brands etc."

But I am still happy as I wanted a AVR for movie experience. ('Waw' factor came from wifee side the day I started it... though kids were annoyed that I am not upgrading my computer...)

So here I would like u folks to suggest means so that I can further improve the 'music experience' by either

1. Adding a power amp (say one from Sonodyne...)
2. Buy a seperate integrated amp (say marantz...)
3. Add a sub or different pair of speakers...(I may be adding some in near future for home-theater use)
4. Some additional setting required on AVR

I request a VFM suggestion.

thanks.

 

[spirovious]

Congrates on your purchase.As you know AVR can hardly ever win over stereo amp in music.Same here.
Adding st amp will really improove SQ.

 

[sand64]

Yeah thanks pal, this is true... but what actually happens in AVR's amp??? It is said that AVR gives so many facilities which IMO should add to noise etc. but where does the quoted rms power goes?? At least there should be punch & body to music despite all those distortions...

So should I add a power amp or go for seperate integrated amp. My wifee listens lot of FM and integrated amp do not come with built in FM.

pl. suggest..

 

[ashishkesarwani]

863 is a very capable amp and you should give it respect by adding matching speakers to it, for it to really perform at its optimum level. The BPL speakers would do fine till then but your ultimate aim should be to upgrade your existing speakers and that would make a lot of difference. I also once had the same tower speakers from BPL which has TBSS written at the bottom of it and at that time those sounded like the best I could get for the money but with AVRs its always suggested to go for a matching speakers to bring out the best from them.

 

[Sumit]

Hi!!

I agree with Ashish. The weakest link are your speakers. Do not go for the power amp YET. Buy better speakers and I can guarantee your music and experience will increase by leaps and bounds.

You first make up your mind and then we can discuss the various speakers/brands you could go for.

Cheers!!

 

[sand64]

Yes ashishkesarwani, this fact is in my mind... Which speaker will suit it most??? I am wondering between a 'lifestyle' type 5.1 set OR another pair of floorstander with centre for future upgrade.
Problem lies with wifee, who prefers lifestyle sort (like Jamo 102HSC) and I am open to both along with WH9.5 or Polk RTI 5 types. Complete 5.1 set will have timbre matching but may not be good for music, though it will add a sub to my BPL floorstaders.. so may be better sound???

I have auditioned WH9.5 and I feel it is only slightly better than my BPL (with tighter bass & better sound stage)

do suggest..

 

[ashishkesarwani]

Yes ashishkesarwani, this fact is in my mind... Which speaker will suit it most??? I am wondering between a 'lifestyle' type 5.1 set OR another pair of floorstander with centre for future upgrade.
Problem lies with wifee, who prefers lifestyle sort (like Jamo 102HSC) and I am open to both along with WH9.5 or Polk RTI 5 types. Complete 5.1 set will have timbre matching but may not be good for music, though it will add a sub to my BPL floorstaders.. so may be better sound???

I have auditioned WH9.5 and I feel it is only slightly better than my BPL (with tighter bass & better sound stage)

do suggest..

Please don't waste your amps capability by adding lifestyle package to it, you would be much better off with Floor Standers type speakers from the likes of Jamo C series, Polk Rti A5 with SUB, Wharfedale Diamond 10 Series if you have space, Mordaunt Short Avant / Mezo /Avino Series, Monitor Audio Bronze Series, Klipch. I know that these many choices would confuse you but I would suggest you to carry your AVR along for the audiotioning, and then decide on the one which sound best to you.

 

[venkatcr]

1. Adding a power amp (say one from Sonodyne...)

Adding a Sonodyne amp to the 863 will be like insult to injury. The 863 is a far better amp and has enough power. Are you using it in Pure Direct mode for music? As other have suggested, the lack of body could be because of the speakers. You could look at a pair of good bookshelves from companies such as PSB, EPOS, Wharfedale, Quad, etc.

2. Buy a seperate integrated amp (say marantz...)

You could always set up a completely independent two channel system. Ultimately it is a question of space, budget, and motivation.

3. Add a sub or different pair of speakers...(I may be adding some in near future for home-theater use) Some additional setting required on AVR

As I have mentioned many times before, if you main L&R speakers deliver the full spectrum of sound, a sub is not needed for music. But, if you feel that low frequencies are lacking, you can always try a sub.

In terms of setting, you should use Stereo or Pure Direct Mode for music. At the same time, remember that when you do this, the AVR will set the LFE off. So in these modes, the sub will not work.

Cheers

I request a VFM suggestion.

thanks.[/QUOTE]

 

[madbullram]

I am not sure about the BPL speaker, do you have the specs for them?

Also, I am interested to know what player you use. Yamaha 863 is a good amp but then the source is important for it to provide that experience. I would look to understand your source first.

My suggestion is first try changing your source, see if you can borrow a good CDP and try it.

You said warf was really different, did u try it at u r home or at showroom and was it with the 863?

 

[Subcenter2009]

Hi folks

So here I am. Purchased Yamaha RX-V863 two weeks back and using it with my existing pair of BPL floorstanders. I am really thankful to members of this forum for their active support & help in clearing many technical aspects. I am a novice and this is my first Hi-fi purchase after 12 year's gap....my previos system is 'all in one' 75W rms x 2 BPL system with a pair of 3-way seperate floorstanders.

To further add, Yamaha x63 is a discontinued model, but musical amp. I prefered it over Denon, though it is very difficult to assess the quality of various music system thrown to you over a period of few hours during audition. It was also praised by many sr. members.

To cut the matter short, I set it up in 2 channel mode and found that yamaha has 'opened up' my BPL floorstanders i.e. sound stage has pronounced with good midrange. Earlier it was not so with my BPL amp. However I also noticed that music is somewhat lacking in 'body'. I mean the punch & rhythm of song is bit subduced, specially at low volumes........:sad: Why so????? At 110w rms power on each channel, there should not be any shortage of power to drive my 8 ohm floorstanders. Well perhaps this is what many of you folks suggested and summed up by madbullram "A 20k Music Setup will any-day blow a 90k HT setup irrespective of the brands etc."

But I am still happy as I wanted a AVR for movie experience. ('Waw' factor came from wifee side the day I started it... though kids were annoyed that I am not upgrading my computer...)

So here I would like u folks to suggest means so that I can further improve the 'music experience' by either

1. Adding a power amp (say one from Sonodyne...)
2. Buy a seperate integrated amp (say marantz...)
3. Add a sub or different pair of speakers...(I may be adding some in near future for home-theater use)
4. Some additional setting required on AVR

I request a VFM suggestion.

thanks.

Hello, dear Sand64,

I have been using a RX-V 450 for the past 3 years.

My RX-V 450 has a switch at the rear to switch between 4 and 8 Ohms.

I may be wrong but using 8 Ohm floorstanders with the control at 4 Ohms might ( I dont Know for sure) affect output levels.

Since I am using products from different companies, I have set the amp's impedance at 4 Ohms to be on the safe side.

So, the volume may be lower..

Does your amp have a similar switch?

Experts, Please advise..

Subcenter2009

 

[thevortex]

Sand64,

As many have mentioned here, please use Pure Direct Mode in the receiver for stereo sound when you play music. However, in order to perceive differences between these modes, you will need to have a revealing chain. The BPL speakers may be the issue here.

Maybe you can lug your receiver to a couple of showrooms, connect it to a few floorstanders and then make the decision as to what you like? I know it is troublesome, but it can go a long way towards telling you what you need.

Bear in mind though that there is no audition like home audition. Speakers can and will sound different in the showroom as compared to your room at your home. All the best.

 

[sand64]

Hi folks, thanks again for valuable suggestions...

Please don't waste your amps capability by adding lifestyle package to it, you would be much better off with Floor Standers type speakers from the likes of Jamo C series, Polk Rti A5 with SUB, Wharfedale Diamond 10 Series if you have space, Mordaunt Short Avant / Mezo /Avino Series, Monitor Audio Bronze Series, Klipch. I know that these many choices would confuse you but I would suggest you to carry your AVR along for the audiotioning, and then decide on the one which sound best to you.

Ok. However I have auditioned Jamo A102 HSC 5 paired with sherwood at Lucknow. And believe me, the SQ was well balanced and sub was very tight & punchy. I will audition them again. Fellow there has only one system for audition. I know it will be a overkill for 863, but sometimes well balanced lifestyle system also give good results like a good HTiBs.
And yes, auditioning is the best but it will be very difficult for me to carry AVR to Delhi for audition as I reside in Lucknow. So I request fellow members to shortlist few ones. For example I had auditioned QA1050 with Ym 863, WH 9.2 & 9.5 with Denon and polks with CA AVRs. Got confused & remained undecided so bought only AVR. Also tell me, if I buy a pair of FS & centre as front, use BPL as rears, will I require a Sub for home theater? They say that a sub is must for good AV experience??

Adding a Sonodyne amp to the 863 will be like insult to injury. The 863 is a far better amp and has enough power. Are you using it in Pure Direct mode for music? As other have suggested, the lack of body could be because of the speakers. You could look at a pair of good bookshelves from companies such as PSB, EPOS, Wharfedale, Quad, etc.

I differ here and need some clarifications... I am a civil engineer, but with little knowedge, I think that the sound signatures will depend mostly upon pre amp and the job of power amp will be only to add power (current to drivers) to it as faithfully as possible, without adding much distortions so that it is able to drive the speaker's solonoids. I think sonodyne is not a bad company....they should be able to add power without much distortion and ultimately sound signatures will remain same of 863. Anyway, I am still not able to understand that why AVRs with enough RMS power do not give good musical performance. As you have also mentioned that power requirement for music is quite even & uniform compaired to movie soundtracks, where there are many fast peaks & rumblings.

And venkat, last weekend I went to a local market for buying some dvds. This market habitats all kind of small shops from mobile to juice corners. A far off shop was playing some music (must be on a desi / local amp & speakers) and I was blown away by the clarity, sound stage and power of music. Back home I started my yamaha and NO it does not have that thrust..... So why this diference... afterall mine is high end system?????

For new speakers, I would prefer to FS than BS

As I have mentioned many times before, if you main L&R speakers deliver the full spectrum of sound, a sub is not needed for music. But, if you feel that low frequencies are lacking, you can always try a sub.

I think it is not low frequencies... it is punch & rhythm... as if it is not able to drive the speakers that fast and asking them to work hard. As far as sound stage is concerned, it is way better than my BPL stereo amp, open and clear.

In terms of setting, you should use Stereo or Pure Direct Mode for music. At the same time, remember that when you do this, the AVR will set the LFE off. So in these modes, the sub will not work.

Yes, I am using it in 2 ch stereo mode. When I switch to pure direct, it is almost same as I am not able to differentiate much between these two settings. And please tell me how to use it in 2.1 mode?

I am not sure about the BPL speaker, do you have the specs for them?

Also, I am interested to know what player you use. Yamaha 863 is a good amp but then the source is important for it to provide that experience. I would look to understand your source first.

My suggestion is first try changing your source, see if you can borrow a good CDP and try it.

You said warf was really different, did u try it at u r home or at showroom and was it with the 863?

Here are the specks...
model BPL sanyo model 1200T
Size 900x290x330 mm sealed box
8" extended bass radiator + 8' woofer + 5" midrange + 2.5" ferro fluid cooled tweeter + 1" dome tweeter
Freq responce - 40 - 20 kHz
Tuning - Extended bass radiator
Power handling - aprox 150w rms per pair
Impedance - 8 ohm
Weight - 24.6 kg

I am mostly using it for FM radio. I have also added LG DVD 388H to it and also using it for CD playing for the time being. I also have Samsung plain CDP, but yet to attach it.

I auditioned WH 9.5 at a shop. It was paired with marantz amp and SQ was better than my BPL but only slightly. Also auditioned with Norge 1000... way behind marantz...distort a bit at higher volumes.

cheers..

 

[sand64]

My RX-V 450 has a switch at the rear to switch between 4 and 8 Ohms.

I may be wrong but using 8 Ohm floorstanders with the control at 4 Ohms might ( I dont Know for sure) affect output levels.

Yes... I have set my AVR to 6 ohm as I have also added a pair of old murphy brand of speakers with it as rear surround. So that is not the issue. thanks anyway...

Sand64,

As many have mentioned here, please use Pure Direct Mode in the receiver for stereo sound when you play music. However, in order to perceive differences between these modes, you will need to have a revealing chain. The BPL speakers may be the issue here.

Maybe you can lug your receiver to a couple of showrooms, connect it to a few floorstanders and then make the decision as to what you like? I know it is troublesome, but it can go a long way towards telling you what you need.

Bear in mind though that there is no audition like home audition. Speakers can and will sound different in the showroom as compared to your room at your home. All the best.

Thanks vortex... U are giving me enought drive to carry my AVR to shops for auditions... It will be a wise thing to do. But carrying it to another city, that too a metro with large distances. So help me to shortlist 2 or 3 models beforehand to reduce auditioning efforts. Many boarders will be owner of Yamaha and they can tell there experiences. I know it is personal and vary but my work load will be reduced..

 

[venkatcr]

A far off shop was playing some music (must be on a desi / local amp & speakers) and I was blown away by the clarity, sound stage and power of music. Back home I started my yamaha and NO it does not have that thrust..... So why this diference... afterall mine is high end system?????

Maybe the shop was also using a high end system. But seriously there could be something wrong with your configuration.

I know the 863 quite well as I have used it many times. It's roughly 100 watts per channel is more than enough decent speakers. Though what you say about a power amp is true, I doubt a Sonodyne can add anything to what the 863 can do. I had the opportunity to hear a Sonodyne pre and power recently in Bangalore, and, though it was decent sounding, it cannot improve anything over the 863. Unless you are using very difficult speakers, the 863 has ample power. Of course what I am saying is about listening to music at sane levels.

I have no idea of your speakers, and they could be the Achilles heel.

Cheers

 

[hemantwaghe]

1) Speakers speakers and speakers - pRIORITY 1 - change BPL speakers -
In 90's some mass market comapanies launched some low end audiophile systems - but they are what they are - low end
2) There seems complete mismatch
3) Have a speaker package like- Front - floorstands ad rest of smaller bookshelf type speakers - take help of forum as i am using mass market jbl but have ANOTHER 2 CHANNEL YAMAHA for stereo
4) for good music - get a decent CD player and good CDs. or set up a audiophile pc with flac ...MP3 is wastage on good systtem
5) How you connected your DVD to avr? Try using Digital connections optical or co ax as onborad dac on DVD players are BADDDDDD..
6) Have some decent thick cables for speakers.

7)If you have space and budget - try to get BIG floorstands - Preferabally with 10 inch to 12 inch woofer and build rest of the system on that...

8) Try better interconnects -least bandridge or MX..

Do not try sonodyne - frankly I did not like its sound


Or
1) Build a video rig with decent speker package and save money
2) and build another 2 channel rig !!! in fact a system like mass market Teac CD player ,Norge amp and norge speakers can be bought ibn saved money - or you get used system even Rs 10000 can buy you a good vintage system!

 

[jayad08]

sand64..
i too have yam863 and with my limited capabilities i wd rate the following FS best matching to it in order of preference:
1) dali ikon 6
2) quad 22L2
3) B&W 684
4) dali lector 6
5) tannoy F3
6) wharfe 10.5
7) jamo 405
8) wharfe 9.6
9) tannoy F4
10) Q-Acoustics 1050i

i still am waiting to audition mission/MA/PSB before making the final call..
hope this helps you shortlisting..

 

[sand64]

Dear Venkat & fellow boarder,

I listen from low to medium levels. In fact I am not geting better performance at lower dB levels, but once I reach at 20dB+, dynamics of sound improves. Therefore I request u to advice on following...

Option I : Should buy a dedicated 5.1 speaker system like Jamo A102 HSC 5.1or Energy take 5.1. Will serve the purpose of movies and also use its sub for music with my BPL speakers. Sub will not enhance the sound stage but may add additional power at lower volumes for lower spectrum ? In this case I will set BPL speakers to zone 2 while 5.1 to main. Now problem lies in how to use it as 2.1, I mean using simultanously 2.0 in zone 2 and .1 with it. Is it possible?

Option II : Buy a pair of floor standers and centre and use BPL as rear (not going to throw away BPL:indifferent14:. All speakers will be set as 'Large'. Here I will request U to suggest me 2/3 good speakers brands which may be good match to Ym 863. In this case will a sub required for home theater purposes???

thanks

 

[hemantwaghe]

(not going to throw away BPL:indifferent14:.
thanks

I think the BPL speakers are main culprit

Think all solutions without it

 

[sand64]

sand64..
i too have yam863 and with my limited capabilities i wd rate the following FS best matching to it in order of preference:
1) dali ikon 6
2) quad 22L2
3) B&W 684
4) dali lector 6
5) tannoy F3
6) wharfe 10.5
7) jamo 405
8) wharfe 9.6
9) tannoy F4
10) Q-Acoustics 1050i

i still am waiting to audition mission/MA/PSB before making the final call..
hope this helps you shortlisting..

Have you auditioned all of the above 10 Floorstanders with 863 ? Which one is VFM ?

thanks..

 

[thevortex]

Speaker choice depends on the kind of music you listen to. If your listening predominantly involves Indian music (film and folk), then try PSB.

The Alpha series as well as the Image series. I think they are excellent speakers for the money.