3-Way speaker for Surrounds - Your suggestion plz..

[elangoas]

Hi ppl,

Have been looking for a new surround speaker, considered few options, but something that caught my attention. - Taga Harmony Platinum LCR-60

This is a regular Left/Center/Right speaker, it also has provisions to wall mount both vertically (or) horizontally and it is a 3-way speaker..

Flexibility of wall mounting Horizontal/vertical is a great asset for surround's too..

Thinking, what if it was used as surround speaker.. 89db efficient and need only 20W minimum power which any entry level AVR can provide..

Front side

Back side

Specifications from hifimart

Design: Left / Center / Right On-Wall. 3-way, 5 drivers, Bi-wiring,
Wall Mounts (for horizontal & vertical mounting)
12mm MDF TLIE enclosure
Crossover points 450Hz, 2.5kHz
High-Frequency Driver: 25mm (1), TPTTD, TWG faceplate, TTP
Bass / Midrange Driver: 4 x 102mm (4) TPACD
Recommended Amplifier Power: 20-150W
Frequency Response: 39Hz-40kHz
Impedance: 6 ohm
Sensitivity: 89dB
Dimensions (H x W x D): 76 x 13.5 x 11 cm
Weight (net): 8.5 kg pc.

Please share your views..

 

[elangoas]

I have seen people use center channels for all 5 connections.In-fact the original THX specs demanded that at least the front three speakers be identical with vertical driver arrangements, not the horizontal bar arrangement. Go for it if you can accommodate the price and the space.

Interesting idea. What is your purpose in looking at something like this for surrounds? Is it the depth or wall mount option or something else?

There are few reasons..

- Options of trying both vertical & horizontal and see which suits the best for the room..
- 10cm is too shallow for a speaker, that is half the depth of regular surrounds..shouldn't take much space..
- Most probably it would act like a 3-way satellite speaker..
- If mounted vertically, can be matched to ear level. Also dispersion should be more compared to regular surrounds (more drivers)
- If mounted horizontally, can be slightly tilted too (with custom brackets)
-89db efficient & price..

Never heard a demo of 3-way speaker as surrounds..

Have you considered Klipsch R-14S?

Nope.. Thanks for suggesting.. Having used dipoles/ regular shape speakers for surrounds, this time thinking to pick something different.. Either a speaker that is naturally tilted by design (or) a 3 way satellite.

I am also considering the RP-140SA, but nothing yet conclusive..

I am using Morel Soundspots for surrounds in a 7.1 setup. Needed small speakers for the living room.
They are good. 4" driver in a small sphere. They are tiltable as well.
Low end extension is not too low.

Great..Looks very nice too..

For wall mounting regular speakers, consider magma's solution

Thanks again...Depth of the stand is 85mm..

14,200 on amazon.in

Really cool.. Less than hifimart.. Am surprised

hi,

I am into designing the same way i.e 3 way LCR for my HT,but following the
Design and method of clearwave speakers using PEERLESS DRIVERS M13NH,M16KI,TL26SG.

Dynamic Series - accuton speakers

Drivers are procured,box building is under progress,right from scratch till the finish of boxes is done by me.

If done correctly they sound fantastic to beat the branded ones,one of our
hifi member Mr. amit verma has done the same using peerless drivers.

regards
rajesh

Speakers look wonderful.. Good luck on your build... Are you building a 3-way for surrounds too ?

The Center channel is majestic..What would be the minimum power required for this speaker?

 

[skdas]

It's excellent for look & price (under 17K) !

 

[elangoas]

I have seen people use center channels for all 5 connections.In-fact the original THX specs demanded that at least the front three speakers be identical with vertical driver arrangements, not the horizontal bar arrangement. Go for it if you can accommodate the price and the space.

Using the same speaker x 5 or more is a great idea... My fronts & center are Klipsch.. Don't mind the surrounds from different brand..

 

[rajesh srinivas]

hi,

I am into designing the same way i.e 3 way LCR for my HT,but following the
Design and method of clearwave speakers using PEERLESS DRIVERS M13NH,M16KI,TL26SG.

Dynamic Series - accuton speakers



Drivers are procured,box building is under progress,right from scratch till the finish of boxes is done by me.

If done correctly they sound fantastic to beat the branded ones,one of our
hifi member Mr. amit verma has done the same using peerless drivers.



regards
rajesh

 

[tuff]

They are 6 inch drivers. The cool thing was you could buy a single speaker instead of pairs which is a rarity now a days. Of course it looked ridiculous sitting on a Mitsubishi 55 inch projection TV.

 

[Naturelover]

Interesting idea. What is your purpose in looking at something like this for surrounds? Is it the depth or wall mount option or something else?

Have you considered Klipsch R-14S?

I am using Morel Soundspots for surrounds in a 7.1 setup. Needed small speakers for the living room.
They are good. 4" driver in a small sphere. They are tiltable as well.
Low end extension is not too low.

For wall mounting regular speakers, consider magma's solution
------

Yes.. Price is 17K for one speaker..

14,200 on amazon.in

 

[Naturelover]

- 10cm is too shallow for a speaker,

That's what I fear. Basically speakers for flat screen TV. Hmm, I wouldn't buy without an audition. How about Dali Fazon?

I am also considering the RP-140SA, but nothing yet conclusive..

You could also the Klipsch R-14M or 15M but they would need brackets

Great..Looks very nice too..

Thanks. Yes, it does

Thanks again...Depth of the stand is 85mm..

I didn't see that. But, then it's purpose is large speakers. So stands to reason.

Less than hifimart.. Am surprised

Yeah, so was I

 

[elangoas]

That's what I fear. Basically speakers for flat screen TV. Hmm, I wouldn't buy without an audition.

Depth being shallow, do you mean to say the bass will be less? If thatz the case and even if it is able to 80 Hz low, it is fair enough for surrounds..

Av Expo Chennai is next weekend.. Let me see my luck if i can get an audition there..

How about Dali Fazon?

Compact dimensions.. US$400 for each speaker & abt 600 Euro a pair is way expensive for surrounds.. Sonodyne Genie 2 is very similar to Dali Fazon.. Aluminium enclosure, almost same freq resp, more sensitive than Fazon and just 15K for a pair..

You could also the Klipsch R-14M or 15M but they would need brackets

Yes.. Thanks.. the speakers have a depth of 20cm.. Adding brackets, will make it more... If am getting Klipsch, would need to wait until Dec this year as couple of friends are coming from US..

Any downsides for a 3-way speaker's as surrounds ?

 

[Naturelover]

...even if it is able to 80 Hz low, it is fair enough for surrounds..

I would try to match it with the front speakers.

Av Expo Chennai is next weekend.. Let me see my luck if i can get an audition there..

Yes, hope you can get an audition

Compact dimensions.. US$400 for each speaker & abt 600 Euro a pair is way expensive for surrounds.. Sonodyne Genie 2 is very similar to Dali Fazon.. Aluminium enclosure, almost same freq resp, more sensitive than Fazon and just 15K for a pair..

Apologies again. I didn't realize they were so expensive. Just came to my mind when thinking of LCRs.

Any downsides for a 3-way speaker's as surrounds ?

Really no idea. Never thought of them for surrounds.

 

[elangoas]

I would try to match it with the front speakers.

Same thoughts here..Since LCR is complete, thinking for surrounds and may be front heights too.. But one step at a time..For now, it is surrounds..

Apologies again. I didn't realize they were so expensive. Just came to my mind when thinking of LCRs.

Not reqd buddy...I get that...

From some of your replies to my recent posts, i have taken cues. Thanks for that. :thumbsup:

Really no idea. Never thought of them for surrounds.

Cool..Not a problem...I did come across something when reading abt center channel speaker..

2-way center channel speaker look to suffer from lobying effect in MTM arrangement.. Hence they use 4 drivers and make them 3- way to reduce this effect.

Did read some links from Auioholics - Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs | Audioholics Was able to comprehend only little.. Rest is beyond my take

From the above, my guess is that 2-way MTM center channel is prone to lobing effect from adjacent drivers.. Hence some manufacturer adopt 3-way design MWTWM with 2 drivers for midrange and 2 drivers for woofer..

I think the drivers on either ends of each speaker is midrange... The one's closest to tweeter are woofers..

 

[manoj.p]

If you want to avoid lobing, at least the tweeter and mid range drivers should be in vertical orientation. The picture in your first post show all the drivers are horizontal. That will not reduce/help any way with lobing. As it is, a horizontal center speaker is a height limited, compromised speaker design. Don't have to use it at other locations and make it more compromised.

A 3 way speaker will work fine as long as its not prone to lobing.

 

[elangoas]

If you want to avoid lobing, at least the tweeter and mid range drivers should be in vertical orientation. The picture in your first post show all the drivers are horizontal. That will not reduce/help any way with lobing.

Midrange below tweeter seems to be the best way to counter lobing.. From the net an other way to counter this is thru the same 3-way crossover and with 5 driver's but in a different config..

Referring to the same image, drivers at the extreme ends produce midrange and drivers adjacent to tweeter produce bass.. Only if the midrange driver's are mounted to either sides of the tweeter, the issue persists.

Do you think even after this arrangement, speaker is still prone to lobing? Am asking this for better understanding..

As it is, a horizontal center speaker is a height limited, compromised speaker design. Don't have to use it at other locations and make it more compromised.

Got it..

A 3 way speaker will work fine as long as its not prone to lobing.

using this speaker vertically for surrounds should be fine without any issues..

 

[manoj.p]

Where does it say that the mid-range is on outer side?

Lobing is caused by two drivers side by side. So, you will have lobing effect still, even if the drivers are spaced out. Moreover, if indeed the mids are spaced further apart, then its a strange design. Almost all the speaker designers wants to get mids as close to tweeter for smoother cross-over. Not sure how the result is in this case. The manufacturer does not make a mention of this, neither there are any graphs included to shine some light on this.

 

[elangoas]

Where does it say that the mid-range is on outer side?

Here is one link - https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/158381-500hz1500hz-on-rp-440c-center-speaker/

From the link - "Ideally a center channel would be vertical, so when you listen off-axis, the sound from each speaker hits your ears at the same time and retains its accuracy. The problem is when you turn them horizontal and also sit off-axis, you can get some weird effects going on, errors in the frequency response due to cancellation and whatnot. It's an issue in general but gets worse with wider centers. I think by limiting the frequency response of the outside speakers they are able to get the bass response that is desired, without introducing weird cancellation issues due to lobing while off-axis, basically being out of phase. Lower frequencies don't do this though."

One more link - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...ere-7-2-system-official-avs-forum-review.html

"The RP-450C center channel is a 2.5-way ported speaker. It sports a Tractrix horn-loaded 1" titanium-dome tweeter and four 5.25" woofers. Two of the woofersthe one directly to the left of the tweeter and the one on the far righthandle midrange duties between 500 Hz and 1500 Hz. The other two woofers cut off at 500 Hz, and arrangement meant to reduce lobing artifacts."

Though both the links refers to Klipsch center channel speaker (5 driver arrangement) , Taga Harmony having very similar layout should do the same..

Lobing is caused by two drivers side by side. So, you will have lobing effect still, even if the drivers are spaced out. Moreover, if indeed the mids are spaced further apart, then its a strange design. Almost all the speaker designers wants to get mids as close to tweeter for smoother cross-over. Not sure how the result is in this case. The manufacturer does not make a mention of this, neither there are any graphs included to shine some light on this.

Thanks for the info.. When it is midrange below tweeter, it is self explained i guess.. But scenario's like this are only covered in reviews..

 

[rajesh srinivas]

Speakers look wonderful.. Good luck on your build... Are you building a 3-way for surrounds too ?

The Center channel is majestic..What would be the minimum power required for this speaker?

For surrounds i will be using the same midrange and tweeter drivers as in LCR but 2way (MTM) in a vertical orientation to match them,We dont require 3way for surrounds which are basically to reproduce ambience effects.

The center channel being horizontal is designed with a low crossover point to minimize lobing errors which creates a smooth power response. The result is clear dialogue and impact no matter where you are sitting in your home theater room.

The minimum power requirement will be 390W at 8 ohms.

r/s

 

[elangoas]

..We dont require 3way for surrounds which are basically to reproduce ambience effects.

Of course there is no need for surrounds to do a 50Hz, as there is a sub-woofer that can take care anything below 80Hz..

Assuming most standard surround speakers are capable of doing 80Hz - 20Khz with a usual 2 way speaker design, wouldn't a 3-way speaker design for surrounds enhance it? (Vertically)

The center channel being horizontal is designed with a low crossover point to minimize lobing errors which creates a smooth power response. The result is clear dialogue and impact no matter where you are sitting in your home theater room.

Thanks for the detailed info.

The minimum power requirement will be 390W at 8 ohms. r/s

:sad: Did you mean to say that was maximum power requirement..

 

[rajesh srinivas]

Of course there is no need for surrounds to do a 50Hz, as there is a sub-woofer that can take care anything below 80Hz..

Assuming most standard surround speakers are capable of doing 80Hz - 20Khz with a usual 2 way speaker design, wouldn't a 3-way speaker design for surrounds enhance it? (Vertically)



Thanks for the detailed info.



:sad: Did you mean to say that was maximum power requirement..

3way is not recommended for surround channel,even a basic 2way (MT) is adequate to produce the diffuse sound,they should not overpower the LCR.
The frequency covered by them are mids and highs.


The power rating given by me for each LCR are maximum and are in RMS.

Few suggestions given by Manoj regarding proper 3 way design are very true indeed as below.

If you want to avoid lobing, at least the tweeter and mid range drivers should be in vertical orientation. The picture in your first post show all the drivers are horizontal. That will not reduce/help any way with lobing. As it is, a horizontal center speaker is a height limited, compromised speaker design. Don't have to use it at other locations and make it more compromised.

A 3 way speaker will work fine as long as its not prone to lobing.

And

Where does it say that the mid-range is on outer side?

Lobing is caused by two drivers side by side. So, you will have lobing effect still, even if the drivers are spaced out. Moreover, if indeed the mids are spaced further apart, then its a strange design. Almost all the speaker designers wants to get mids as close to tweeter for smoother cross-over. Not sure how the result is in this case. The manufacturer does not make a mention of this, neither there are any graphs included to shine some light on this.

If you see my clearwave design who are world class designers,its exactly designed as suggested by manoj to reduce lobing effects to minimum, the tweeter beams high frequencies, it needs to be at ear level when the listener is seated.the midrange has to be close to the tweeter ,By placing the tweeter inbetween little higher to the midranges this allows all the frequencies arrive at the ear at the same time.

The ear and brain will process a point source sound as being more realistic and natural sounding. A further benefit is that the dispersion of the frequencies away from the center of the speaker are even and balanced which helps to produce a better reproduction of the recorded event even if the listener moves away from the sweet spot or centered position in front of the speakers.

r/s.

 

[yugaaa]

Why not co-axial speakers ? Easier and faster to get them done . I hope some audio components manufacturer comes out with a 8 Ohm co-axial speaker . The car speakers are 4 ohms and many AVR would get fried
The eminence ones are not so cheap though

 

[elangoas]

3way is not recommended for surround channel,even a basic 2way (MT) is adequate to produce the diffuse sound,they should not overpower the LCR.
The frequency covered by them are mids and highs.

Few suggestions given by Manoj regarding proper 3 way design are very true indeed as below. And

Hmmm.. I understand that surrounds shouldn't overpower LCR...

Anyways am not completely convinced of the fact that 3-way speaker is not a good fit for surrounds.. At-least 3-way satellite speakers in this regard...

If you see my clearwave design who are world class designers,its exactly designed as suggested by manoj to reduce lobing effects to minimum, the tweeter beams high frequencies, it needs to be at ear level when the listener is seated.the midrange has to be close to the tweeter ,By placing the tweeter inbetween little higher to the midranges this allows all the frequencies arrive at the ear at the same time.

The ear and brain will process a point source sound as being more realistic and natural sounding. A further benefit is that the dispersion of the frequencies away from the center of the speaker are even and balanced which helps to produce a better reproduction of the recorded event even if the listener moves away from the sweet spot or centered position in front of the speakers.

r/s.

Yes.. Read that when looking for lobing issue...

OTOH, not very sure how drivers placed next to each other (horizontally) with alternate drivers doing alternate freq perform..

Why not co-axial speakers ? Easier and faster to get them done . I hope some audio components manufacturer comes out with a 8 Ohm co-axial speaker . The car speakers are 4 ohms and many AVR would get fried
The eminence ones are not so cheap though

Never thought of this Good to try, but may not be ideal solution aesthetically..