Altec Club,
- Thread starter badrisuper
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srinisundar
Well-Known Member
Congrats....
shafic
Well-Known Member
Congrats!! Nice find!!
T
tiger0691
Guest
It is cool.............................
I envy you.
I envy you.
rajagopal_j
Active Member
Congratulations and welcome to the club!
I see that your HF drivers are at least 10 years apart. Considering the pathetic Altec QC, you should measure your drivers and plan for equalization when you do your crossover. Without which you will probably notice an imbalance between the channels.
I see that your HF drivers are at least 10 years apart. Considering the pathetic Altec QC, you should measure your drivers and plan for equalization when you do your crossover. Without which you will probably notice an imbalance between the channels.
Last edited:
SIDEWINDER18X
Well-Known Member
Hi,
Great find. Do keep in mind to re- magnetize the magnets which is very important in the restoration process. And this cannot be ignored or skipped.
Vivek.
just bumped back into this thread. Any progress?
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
I've cracked a few of those open and cleaned them. I have a screw stuck in one of them I need to extract. They will clean out very well. Here is my audiokarma thread -
OK I didn't have pics in that.
802/804 vs 807/808 - Page 2 - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
I need to find pics, I basically used a chisel and opened the plate after removing the 3 screws on the outer edge. I have 1 driver open, but its at the machine shop waiting some muhurath for my friend to drill out the screw but stuck in the wall.
I'll get pics of it.
But if the diaphragm is still in it, the voice coil gap is likely to be clean. You may be better off just keeping the diaphragm and cleaning the outside visible part. The sealed diapgragm will protect the gap. You can plug that hole on the horn side with paper and clean away. nothing will ge tin there, you have the end cap on, you will be good.
Just surface outside cleaning. Easy.
Cool.
Srinath.
OK I didn't have pics in that.
802/804 vs 807/808 - Page 2 - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
I need to find pics, I basically used a chisel and opened the plate after removing the 3 screws on the outer edge. I have 1 driver open, but its at the machine shop waiting some muhurath for my friend to drill out the screw but stuck in the wall.
I'll get pics of it.
But if the diaphragm is still in it, the voice coil gap is likely to be clean. You may be better off just keeping the diaphragm and cleaning the outside visible part. The sealed diapgragm will protect the gap. You can plug that hole on the horn side with paper and clean away. nothing will ge tin there, you have the end cap on, you will be good.
Just surface outside cleaning. Easy.
Cool.
Srinath.
Most of the vintage Altec Co-axials such as 604, 605 etc consist of a 416/515 equivalent LF and 802/808 equivalent HF units. These are all AlNiCo magnet variety (later coaxs models have ferrite magnets).
Head to head coaxials sound better compared to their 2 speaker equivalents due to single point source. However some of us have used 2 speaker design with 416/515 as LFs and 288s as HFs. 288s are a big step up over 802/808 variants due to larger format and better midrange performance.
I have a pair of 604Es to implement in one of the larger Onken cabinets. Need to make some space at home to accommodate these.
Cheers
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
Actually I have EV coaxials as well as Pioneer coaxials with an electrostatic tweeter.
I dont neccesarily think coaxials are the best.
Here is why.
The woofer is @ best 97 db sensitivity. The 421 extends to 3k pretty nicely retaining most of that spl.
The Horn on a bad day is 107 db. You cross into it anywhere upward of 800 hz. No matter where you go into it, it will come out drowning the woofer out. If you dont take out 12-15db from the horn, it will be all you hear even when you cross into it as high as 2500. To run with a 97 db woofer, a coaxial horn will have to be no more than 95 db.
EV tried to address this with a funky looking adjustment on a plate glued to the back of the TRX. It may have even worked ... except, that woofer is meant to go in a sealed cabinet. So to adjust your spl for horn to woofer, you will have to dismantle the cabinet. I'm going to dismantle the cabinet all right. By taking out the woofer and selling it.
Now I have Pioneer 8" woofer with a Electrostatic tweeter in front. PAX series, I think its a PAX20. These sound very very good. The tweeter is around 2 db under the woofer, and its crossed at 3500 if I recall. Being an 8", it wont play under 70-80 hz, but its a small trade off because where it works, it works extremely well.
I have not heard an altec coaxial. But I can pretty certainly tell you, the 800 series tweeter will drown out any 15" woofer in that era. To work with a 107 db tweeter, you need a 110 db woofer. Give or take 1-2 db.
Cool.
Srinath.
I dont neccesarily think coaxials are the best.
Here is why.
The woofer is @ best 97 db sensitivity. The 421 extends to 3k pretty nicely retaining most of that spl.
The Horn on a bad day is 107 db. You cross into it anywhere upward of 800 hz. No matter where you go into it, it will come out drowning the woofer out. If you dont take out 12-15db from the horn, it will be all you hear even when you cross into it as high as 2500. To run with a 97 db woofer, a coaxial horn will have to be no more than 95 db.
EV tried to address this with a funky looking adjustment on a plate glued to the back of the TRX. It may have even worked ... except, that woofer is meant to go in a sealed cabinet. So to adjust your spl for horn to woofer, you will have to dismantle the cabinet. I'm going to dismantle the cabinet all right. By taking out the woofer and selling it.
Now I have Pioneer 8" woofer with a Electrostatic tweeter in front. PAX series, I think its a PAX20. These sound very very good. The tweeter is around 2 db under the woofer, and its crossed at 3500 if I recall. Being an 8", it wont play under 70-80 hz, but its a small trade off because where it works, it works extremely well.
I have not heard an altec coaxial. But I can pretty certainly tell you, the 800 series tweeter will drown out any 15" woofer in that era. To work with a 107 db tweeter, you need a 110 db woofer. Give or take 1-2 db.
Cool.
Srinath.
There is no 288 as HF variant of coaxial, it becomes impossible from size and weight perspective to make. The 288s are huge...
The 604 has 515 equivalent LF and 605 has 416 equivalent LF in them. Between various variants of 604's I am not the person to comment, but the altec user forum is the best place or Rajiv could comment.
Srinath, the SPL differences exist whether they are separate or coaxial between LF and HF units of Altec and they need to be attenuated (HF) using passive or active cross overs. Most of the Altec crossovers had a variable attenuator to the HF in the crossover.
Cheers.
Hi,
You will find information about various models of 604's here.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700/175561-604s-why-so.html
Altec made a 12 inch coaxial with a 288 "type" i.e. 1.4 inch throat HF driver called the Engine. GPA makes a version still.
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/212_8A.pdf
Regards
Rajiv
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
EV wolverines - TRX 12's, AKA coaxials dont have any way to avtive XO them.
Altec's may. I have no experience with altec coaxials like I said before.
The Wolverines have a good internal Lpad. Only problem is, you have to mount em in a cabinet and the adjustment is on the back.
My altec 1203/1202 set came without any attenuation in their XO, but they also were bi ampable, and the XO was a custom made one. That means they were probably used with an active XO and bi amped.
Personally I think triaxials are good sounding by being point source, but the spl match is a PITA.
Cool.
Srinath.
Altec's may. I have no experience with altec coaxials like I said before.
The Wolverines have a good internal Lpad. Only problem is, you have to mount em in a cabinet and the adjustment is on the back.
My altec 1203/1202 set came without any attenuation in their XO, but they also were bi ampable, and the XO was a custom made one. That means they were probably used with an active XO and bi amped.
Personally I think triaxials are good sounding by being point source, but the spl match is a PITA.
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
He he, EV's Triaxial is not quite 3 drivers. Their mid is a wizzer cone that - well we dont know what it does, cos the SP12, the regular 12" woofer has a whizzer too.
The 2 terminals in the back yes you can bi-amp.
Now the XO point is a compromise. If I have a active XO and a biamped setup I'd be fiddling with it 100's of times a day. LOL. It can be set in 1 spot and left there, but the drivers have their strengths, and for example the altec 515 is supposed to be the best recreator of human voice ever made. If you're watching a movie with a lot of dialogues like say "the notebook", you would be tempted to send up to 3500 hz to the woofer and turn the horn down a lot. If the movie is like "transformers", tons of noise and no speaking of any consequence, play the horn from 1200. There is no real reason a woofer needs to do much other than made loud low freq noises. So put a lot of power into the woofer but only give it low freq. The Horn does noises better with less power. If you ahve an active EQ, you can drive yourself crazy pretty good. LOL.
That's just for movies, music is a whole new ball game. Jazz and most air instruments as well as some string instruments like violin sound great on horns. Nothing else comes close. Instruments like lead guitar, piano and harp sound great on ribbons or hard domes. Bass guitar actually is best on the woofer. Can you imagine how much you'd be fiddling with it if you had a biamped setup. Let alone tri amped. Dont laugh, my friend has a B&W 802 that is triamped. He's consuming a lot of electricity, and finally its not that much better sounding than my EV's on a simple yamaha DSP 3090 home theater amp.
More complicated can be more fun, not neccesarily better sound.
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
A wihizzer cone is there a lot of EV's. SP12's have them, the crazy thing was made to be in a 3 way with a 1823 and a T 35 horn. OK It also went in a lot of 2 ways with just the T350. The TRX12 has the whizzer and a T350 inside it. Looks ridiculous. Sounds Fine.
Now a 802 - he he whole new ball game.
It can sound great. It likes massive high current high power amps.
However amps that have a great reputation for good sound end up sounding weak and thin. It was awful with the adcom 5500, yamaha MX1000, and carver silver 7 t's and a few others. It pretty much demanded the nakamichi PA 7. Problem was, not one other speaker sounded better on the PA 7 than all the rest.
The DM580 I demoed for a short time sounded great on the adcom 535 and my crown CE 1000. But the PA 7 was a bit slow and muddy on it.
B&W's have crossovers that literally make them suited for very few amps.
You have a 35 watt a ch tube amp - yea buy EV or altec, dont buy B&W.
You have a 300 watt a ch high current solid state amp - fine B&W 802.
You have 100 w ch high current SS. Get a smaller B&W. Like a dm580, 570 or a dm1800 (BTW retarded numbering system)
I like the old altecs and ev's and their type, and secondary is ribbons, infinity kappa 9 types. B&W ad Kef and wharfedale are really more complicated than they need to be.
Cool.
Srinath.
Now a 802 - he he whole new ball game.
It can sound great. It likes massive high current high power amps.
However amps that have a great reputation for good sound end up sounding weak and thin. It was awful with the adcom 5500, yamaha MX1000, and carver silver 7 t's and a few others. It pretty much demanded the nakamichi PA 7. Problem was, not one other speaker sounded better on the PA 7 than all the rest.
The DM580 I demoed for a short time sounded great on the adcom 535 and my crown CE 1000. But the PA 7 was a bit slow and muddy on it.
B&W's have crossovers that literally make them suited for very few amps.
You have a 35 watt a ch tube amp - yea buy EV or altec, dont buy B&W.
You have a 300 watt a ch high current solid state amp - fine B&W 802.
You have 100 w ch high current SS. Get a smaller B&W. Like a dm580, 570 or a dm1800 (BTW retarded numbering system)
I like the old altecs and ev's and their type, and secondary is ribbons, infinity kappa 9 types. B&W ad Kef and wharfedale are really more complicated than they need to be.
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
B&W's aren't just power hungry, they also have an ability to make everything sound worse. Lots of problems in those, leave em alone for now. I may get a set of dm580's and fiddle with them and find out something, if I trade em with my friend. Or not.
Altec's, and in nearly any speaker my thought is, simpler the better.
If you would get off your altec horn fascination, there is a lot of tweeters you can build a killer system out of, assuming you are running a 15" altec woofer. Now IMHO, the altec 15" to have is a 515, followed by a 421. None of the other 4 series 15's will go as high as 3500 and give you 97 db/watt.
I would run either a B&G Neo8 tweeter or a ESS heil based chinese ribbon in a 45 degree mount with the woofer firing upward and tweeter sitting at the top rim vertically.
Why ?
1. It almost works like a point source.
2. It is rock solid 8 ohm, not a drifter. You can run it with 2 watts of power to 100 db.
3. Look up Kithara and Aulos model swiss speakers.
4. XO @ 2000 - 3000 give you tons of flexibility.
5. The 80x series horn starts to drop off 12-14k. Agreed it drops off from 107 db. But the neo and the ESS based ribbons are well into the high teens 18-20K before they drop any spl.
6. A single 15 and a front mounted tweeter is a easy cabinet design and easier to tune. You can even open baffle it.
7. The neo 8 and the ess are 94 and 95 db sensitivity, perfect match for a 97 db woofer. Oh neo 3 also a good candidate.
The altec Horn is great, but you pay a big penalty for it. Size and cabinet construction etc etc. I have a pair of 511 and a pair of 811 (smaller horn) and I have no idea how to use the 511. I have 2 speaker designs I need to use the 811, and none for the 511. I am hoping to trade someone a 511 pair for a 811 pair.
Anyway look up those chinese ESS-Neo ribbon imitations. These are AMT's, look like ribbons, sound like ribbons and are 8 ohm impedance at all frequencies. Ruler flat.
And they are not really that $$$. They are under 1/2 the altec original diaphragms alone.
I have a pair of the great heils, but these are better. The Heils are 40 lb 6"X6"X4". You can mount them on the rim, your heil will fall into the woofer and destroy both.
Cool.
Srinath.
Altec's, and in nearly any speaker my thought is, simpler the better.
If you would get off your altec horn fascination, there is a lot of tweeters you can build a killer system out of, assuming you are running a 15" altec woofer. Now IMHO, the altec 15" to have is a 515, followed by a 421. None of the other 4 series 15's will go as high as 3500 and give you 97 db/watt.
I would run either a B&G Neo8 tweeter or a ESS heil based chinese ribbon in a 45 degree mount with the woofer firing upward and tweeter sitting at the top rim vertically.
Why ?
1. It almost works like a point source.
2. It is rock solid 8 ohm, not a drifter. You can run it with 2 watts of power to 100 db.
3. Look up Kithara and Aulos model swiss speakers.
4. XO @ 2000 - 3000 give you tons of flexibility.
5. The 80x series horn starts to drop off 12-14k. Agreed it drops off from 107 db. But the neo and the ESS based ribbons are well into the high teens 18-20K before they drop any spl.
6. A single 15 and a front mounted tweeter is a easy cabinet design and easier to tune. You can even open baffle it.
7. The neo 8 and the ess are 94 and 95 db sensitivity, perfect match for a 97 db woofer. Oh neo 3 also a good candidate.
The altec Horn is great, but you pay a big penalty for it. Size and cabinet construction etc etc. I have a pair of 511 and a pair of 811 (smaller horn) and I have no idea how to use the 511. I have 2 speaker designs I need to use the 811, and none for the 511. I am hoping to trade someone a 511 pair for a 811 pair.
Anyway look up those chinese ESS-Neo ribbon imitations. These are AMT's, look like ribbons, sound like ribbons and are 8 ohm impedance at all frequencies. Ruler flat.
And they are not really that $$$. They are under 1/2 the altec original diaphragms alone.
I have a pair of the great heils, but these are better. The Heils are 40 lb 6"X6"X4". You can mount them on the rim, your heil will fall into the woofer and destroy both.
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
A 21" will not run to the 3K you need. I tink that altec 421 is your best bet.
I wouldn't buy a ribbon. You need an AMT. You wont get a ribbon (Planar magnetic) to work down to 2500 hz that sounds 1/2 way acceptable or goes to 20k.
Also ESS woofers suck. The amt 1b I have really have one terrible 12" woofer. Pity, that amt should be crossed into @ 1200, not @ 800 like it is. AMT also has more spl, like 6db more. I'd put a dayton dc 300 in its place - which is a great woofer sold by parts express BTW.
Cool.
Srinath.
I wouldn't buy a ribbon. You need an AMT. You wont get a ribbon (Planar magnetic) to work down to 2500 hz that sounds 1/2 way acceptable or goes to 20k.
Also ESS woofers suck. The amt 1b I have really have one terrible 12" woofer. Pity, that amt should be crossed into @ 1200, not @ 800 like it is. AMT also has more spl, like 6db more. I'd put a dayton dc 300 in its place - which is a great woofer sold by parts express BTW.
Cool.
Srinath.
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