Whats happening in Hifi?? Dont buy avr now....read on!

[k-pad]

A four-year lurker here, and a three and some owner of a Denon.
1. I think the biggest problem between when I came on over here in 2020-21, and now, is the quality of amps.
2. I think i have an hdmi problem in my cable also, and a high voltage problem in my house, by way of full disclosure.
3. All said, I truly believe companies are skimping on amps, especially in new-age AVRs.

Like, how many of us have even heard the D4800, like OP says he has?
From what i have seen on this forum, there'll be some mid-two-digits who own the 4800...
Why so quick to diss?

 

[keith_correa]

Like, how many of us have even heard the D4800, like OP says he has?

Maybe many. Maybe a few. And your point is?

From what i have seen on this forum, there'll be some mid-two-digits who own the 4800...

Let's say you're right. And your point is?

Why so quick to diss?

Who is dissing what? And where?

 

[matbhuvi]

Going for separate Amp over AVR is not going to solve the problem at least in entry/mid level models which don't have option for disabling the internal amps. What happens is, on higher volume, the amps are still driven and they put the side effects on the preout as well. Basically, the preout wont be clean and they degrade with increase in volume. In lower volume, it should be fine. So, AVR processor or higher end AVR would be needed. I used to think that Oppo bluray players were expensive. Fast forward, we don't AV Processors in that range which can give such clean output. Even without room correction, which you would need mostly for the first 500hz, you do have options like minidsp for the subs. I upgraded to a Denon from Pioneer elite avr as well when i wanted atmos. I can clearly understand OP's frustration.

 

[sandeepmohan]

Going for separate Amp over AVR is not going to solve the problem at least in entry/mid level models which don't have option for disabling the internal amps. What happens is, on higher volume, the amps are still driven and they put the side effects on the preout as well.

I'm not sure how you are helping the FM member with your response.

This part of what you've written is baseless. A Pre Out is just a pre out. It has not connection whatsoever to the internal amps. Driven or not driven, they don't come in the way. Even Stereo amplifiers have pre outs and you can't disable the Amplifier (On most amps) section when you use the pre puts.

There are cost and practical limitations to using a Pre Power set up. Thats the reason most of us opt for an all in one unit. Its a convenient one box solution that does more than just amplifying the signal input.

 

[rwnano]

Going for separate Amp over AVR is not going to solve the problem at least in entry/mid level models which don't have option for disabling the internal amps. What happens is, on higher volume, the amps are still driven and they put the side effects on the preout as well. Basically, the preout wont be clean and they degrade with increase in volume. In lower volume, it should be fine. So, AVR processor or higher end AVR would be needed. I used to think that Oppo bluray players were expensive. Fast forward, we don't AV Processors in that range which can give such clean output. Even without room correction, which you would need mostly for the first 500hz, you do have options like minidsp for the subs. I upgraded to a Denon from Pioneer elite avr as well when i wanted atmos. I can clearly understand OP's frustration.

Interesting observation

 

[DB1989]

This part of what you've written is baseless. A Pre Out is just a pre out. It has not connection whatsoever to the internal amps. Driven or not driven, they don't come in the way. Even Stereo amplifiers have pre outs and you can't disable the Amplifier (On most amps) section when you use the pre puts.

Actually, this was a well known issue in Denon and Marantz AVRs. I've time stamped the video below for a quick 20 second primer.

In fact, this problem was specifically resolved post the X3600H series after inter alia Audioholics flagged it for the umpteenth time.

 

[Amarendra]

Pioneer lx 305/505 or 805 dint have any accolades in the whole of all the forums and reviews searched....news about pioneer getting bankrupt and taken over along with such a face of review ...the result!

I run a Pioneer and a Denon in my HT. Every few days I swap the Denon out for the Pioneer because Pioneer produces a very large soundfield- the roof practically disappears in my room- bass response is crunchy and at another level. However I keep going back to the Denon as well- more cohesive sound, better dialogues, easier menus, Audyssey, etc. Each has a different flavor to offer. I prefer listening to the Denon without the carpet in the room - it makes the sound effortless and more to my liking. The room and speakers are the same but the AVR responses are different calling for changes.
Perhaps you can experiment with the room -not all room treatment may be beneficial. In fact there used to be some good listening rooms/ showrooms in South Mumbai where even crappy AVRs used to sound like million $ equipment. Bring the AVR home and I was left wondering what went wrong and I need an upgraded version/ better speakers. But the issues are also with the environment in which the equipment is kept and how the environment interacts with the system output. So do work on the room, try some DSP, use the pre-outs (now a days the amp section shuts down as mentioned by Darpan) and re-try.
In fact if AVR and other audio equipment start sounding perfect out of the box then what will most of us do in our spare time !!!!

 

[matbhuvi]

I'm not sure how you are helping the FM member with your response.

This part of what you've written is baseless. A Pre Out is just a pre out. It has not connection whatsoever to the internal amps. Driven or not driven, they don't come in the way. Even Stereo amplifiers have pre outs and you can't disable the Amplifier (On most amps) section when you use the pre puts.

There are cost and practical limitations to using a Pre Power set up. Thats the reason most of us opt for an all in one unit. Its a convenient one box solution that does more than just amplifying the signal input.

Try reading the measurement results in Audiosciencereview. Dont form opinion before understanding the facts.

 

[sandeepmohan]

Dont form opinion before understanding the facts.

I was not forming opinion.
You've made a general statement that using a Pre Out from an AVR is no good. That seems to hold true for a handful of brands and models we are talking about here. Not all of them. We watch one You Tube video that says there is signal bleed on the pre out. We then form our own opinion and say all receivers suffer from this. Incredible.

So yeah, the X3600 did suffer from the issue (Now resolved) and a handful of Marantz units (No surprise). That does not mean every receiver sold has the issue.

 

[Saiganesh]

Hi all!
Now found ways to enjoy Denon4800 much better than before and at many situations finding denon better than pioneer now.

Things that made bass not good with denon was the following settings.
1. The crossover of front speakers need to be set to full range else a huge heap of the bass is missing while listening to 2channel source.

2. Inside the Menu -speakers- manual - advanced- Low frequency effects , need to set subwoofer output as LFE + main and the option below it that reads Bass extraction LPF front needs to be set as 100 hz (or 80 or 90)
3. Inside the same advanced menu -Low frequency effects- low pass filter this crossover need to be set as the highest crossover that has been set in the main crossover setting. E.g my height channel speakers are a lean speaker which audyssy set as 120hz so set it here.
4. If the mainspeakers cannot take full range then better dive into menu -speakers - manual- advvanced-Low -frequency effects- distribution- set the front to -20db. Increasing this will make the front speakers take more LFE (bass) . Depending on the capacity of front speakers and amp this can be set conservatively.

now if the front crossover is set to anything other than full range a chunk of bass is missing from all the speakers (even the subwoofer does not get those Low frequencies)

5. Used a laser distance measuring tool and set the speaker distance in the menu (its a day and night difference, may be even using a tape would do this)

NOw with regards to tweaking the high frequency response in denon I could not find a nice way other than relying on multi eq (mobile) to set it right.

After audyssy multi eq target curve tweaking the high frequencies were harsh to say the least.

THe best way i got out of it was going inside menu-audio-surround parameter- cinema eq -ON.
After this my denon sounded wonderfully to my taste. Still missing those sweet smooth highs of my pioneer. But when i switched back to pioneer I liked the denon balanced sound more now.

Pioneers individual eq for every speakers lets tune sound to my taste more precisely.
But now the bass from denon is more accurate. I seriously doubt the reliability of the multi eq app file (.ady) which behaves very strangely every time and everytime calibration comes out with a different output.

And denon is not able to drive the 3way speakers to its full potent like the pioneer could. Denon fills that gap more with the subs, making the 3 way tower useless.

Anyway thats what I have arrived for now...may be more light might change the perspective.

 

[Amarendra]

Hi all!
Now found ways to enjoy Denon4800 much better than before and at many situations finding denon better than pioneer now.

Things that made bass not good with denon was the following settings.
1. The crossover of front speakers need to be set to full range else a huge heap of the bass is missing while listening to 2channel source.

2. Inside the Menu -speakers- manual - advanced- Low frequency effects , need to set subwoofer output as LFE + main and the option below it that reads Bass extraction LPF front needs to be set as 100 hz (or 80 or 90)
3. Inside the same advanced menu -Low frequency effects- low pass filter this crossover need to be set as the highest crossover that has been set in the main crossover setting. E.g my height channel speakers are a lean speaker which audyssy set as 120hz so set it here.
4. If the mainspeakers cannot take full range then better dive into menu -speakers - manual- advvanced-Low -frequency effects- distribution- set the front to -20db. Increasing this will make the front speakers take more LFE (bass) . Depending on the capacity of front speakers and amp this can be set conservatively.

now if the front crossover is set to anything other than full range a chunk of bass is missing from all the speakers (even the subwoofer does not get those Low frequencies)

5. Used a laser distance measuring tool and set the speaker distance in the menu (its a day and night difference, may be even using a tape would do this)

NOw with regards to tweaking the high frequency response in denon I could not find a nice way other than relying on multi eq (mobile) to set it right.

After audyssy multi eq target curve tweaking the high frequencies were harsh to say the least.

THe best way i got out of it was going inside menu-audio-surround parameter- cinema eq -ON.
After this my denon sounded wonderfully to my taste. Still missing those sweet smooth highs of my pioneer. But when i switched back to pioneer I liked the denon balanced sound more now.

Pioneers individual eq for every speakers lets tune sound to my taste more precisely.
But now the bass from denon is more accurate. I seriously doubt the reliability of the multi eq app file (.ady) which behaves very strangely every time and everytime calibration comes out with a different output.

And denon is not able to drive the 3way speakers to its full potent like the pioneer could. Denon fills that gap more with the subs, making the 3 way tower useless.

Anyway thats what I have arrived for now...may be more light might change the perspective.

Good to hear- why not drive the towers with your power amp through the Denon pre- outs ? That way the Denon will have less load and you can get fuller sound.

 

[Saiganesh]

Good to hear- why not drive the towers with your power amp through the Denon pre- outs ? That way the Denon will have less load and you can get fuller sound.

Already driving them through power amp.
The drivers initially sounded 'BOMBASTIC'.
Few days back heard crackling sound from mid drivers when those booms were going in, so then used distribution.
Actually found a even better way to get rid of crackling sound.
Since the towers accept bi amping- connected mids and tweeters to anthem MCA 325 and the low drivers to crown xls2502. Working very good now. But still keeping distribution to -6 as i dont want to take the risk of permanent crackling sound from the low drivers later!

 

[ssf]

Hi all!
Now found ways to enjoy Denon4800 much better than before and at many situations finding denon better than pioneer now.

Things that made bass not good with denon was the following settings.
1. The crossover of front speakers need to be set to full range else a huge heap of the bass is missing while listening to 2channel source.

Something is not right here. Crossover are set to specifically distribute the bass to the speakers and the sub. If the sub is not getting any frequencies, there is something wrong with the settings.

2. Inside the Menu -speakers- manual - advanced- Low frequency effects , need to set subwoofer output as LFE + main and the option below it that reads Bass extraction LPF front needs to be set as 100 hz (or 80 or 90)

LFE is the dedicated .1 signal present only in movies. This is not to be confused with regular bass present in the other channels. The frequency range of the .1 channel is from 3 Hz to 120 Hz.

3. Inside the same advanced menu -Low frequency effects- low pass filter this crossover need to be set as the highest crossover that has been set in the main crossover setting. E.g my height channel speakers are a lean speaker which audyssy set as 120hz so set it here.

Frequency range of the LFE the .1 channel in movies usually lies be 3 hz and 120 Hz. This should be set at 120 Hz or the highest possible setting available so that all the frequency range in the LFE is reproduced. Say, if this is set at 80 Hz, then the frequencies between 120 Hz and 80 Hz if present in the LFE will not be reproduced.

4. If the mainspeakers cannot take full range then better dive into menu -speakers - manual- advvanced-Low -frequency effects- distribution- set the front to -20db. Increasing this will make the front speakers take more LFE (bass) . Depending on the capacity of front speakers and amp this can be set conservatively.

This is basically sending the .1 movie channel to the main speakers. I would not do this. This will stress out both the speakers and the AVR if external amps are not used. A clear distinction need to be made between 'Full Range' and LFE. Full Range refers to the Frequency Range present in songs and movies. This is typically between 20 hz and 20 Khz. LFE is the dedicated .1 signal present only in movies. The frequency range of the .1 channel is from 3 Hz to 120 Hz

Here, an attempt is made to send the full frequency range plus the .1 channel of the movies to the speakers . Frequencies below 80Hz and the .1 channel is best handled by the subwoofer.

now if the front crossover is set to anything other than full range a chunk of bass is missing from all the speakers (even the subwoofer does not get those Low frequencies)

Again, something wrong with the settings somewhere. Chunks of bass won't go missing if speakers are set to small and crossover are set to the desired frequency and LFE is set to LFE.

After this my denon sounded wonderfully to my taste.

Perfectly fine to set your denon to your taste. Just wanted to let you know what the settings do.

 

[Saiganesh]

Something is not right here. Crossover are set to specifically distribute the bass to the speakers and the sub. If the sub is not getting any frequencies, there is something wrong with the settings.

LFE is the dedicated .1 signal present only in movies. This is not to be confused with regular bass present in the other channels. The frequency range of the .1 channel is from 3 Hz to 120 Hz.

Frequency range of the LFE the .1 channel in movies usually lies be 3 hz and 120 Hz. This should be set at 120 Hz or the highest possible setting available so that all the frequency range in the LFE is reproduced. Say, if this is set at 80 Hz, then the frequencies between 120 Hz and 80 Hz if present in the LFE will not be reproduced.

This is basically sending the .1 movie channel to the main speakers. I would not do this. This will stress out both the speakers and the AVR if external amps are not used. A clear distinction need to be made between 'Full Range' and LFE. Full Range refers to the Frequency Range present in songs and movies. This is typically between 20 hz and 20 Khz. LFE is the dedicated .1 signal present only in movies. The frequency range of the .1 channel is from 3 Hz to 120 Hz

Here, an attempt is made to send the full frequency range plus the .1 channel of the movies to the speakers . Frequencies below 80Hz and the .1 channel is best handled by the subwoofer.

Again, something wrong with the settings somewhere. Chunks of bass won't go missing if speakers are set to small and crossover are set to the desired frequency and LFE is set to LFE.

Perfectly fine to set your denon to your taste. Just wanted to let you know what the settings do.

Completely understand what you are trying to say and thats how exactly i understood the system initially.
But hear me out fully.
Initially when denon arrived it had this setting to specify speakers as large and small.
The very next day after the update this 'small' , ' large' option vanished and now its only crossover.

I had mentioned in my post about the bass missing in 2channel music.

And ofcourse there is some bass missing in 5.1 input too. May be denon needs to reiterate how this behaves or we have to work this out for understanding.

TRied many settings and could not get that bass without the LFE+ main setting.
While watching movies its not so much evident but, yes its missing! Would love to explore more setting to get this without doing this.

The is how i percieve how these settings work.
In 2 channel mode all the frequencies are fed to only 2 channels and the system tries to extract LFE separately with its own set of rules (rules=crossover).

When only LFE is sent to sub woofer without mains and when the crossover of front channels is not set to full range, the system plays the subwoofer with its own rules and may be it forgot to (a bug or??) route those frequencies that the mains are missing because of the crossover setting to the front channel.

So setting front channels to full range and reducing the distribution to -20(this is almost negligible and wont hurt speaker or amp) Routes those frequencies to the subwoofer.

Since in a 5.1 channel source (or atmos) Lfe is separately designed (separate track) and sent to subwoofer this problem is not evident but, when say a car with rumbling engine moves from left to right in a movie, the full range speakers will have those lo's (LFE) move along the left to right channel and if the front channel is not set to full range then this low rumble will be totally missing since its not routed to subwoofer (.1 channel) (caz its not playing LFE +main and only LFE. Those rumble from the main channel is not sent to subwoofer and the main speakers also dont want to play those frequencies caz of the crossover setting)

This is how the settings have been working atleast for me or this is how I have understood it.

I have already made post about crackling sound from front channel speakers and the above theory explains why this has been happening. This crackling sound is negated when distribution is set to -6db. To be on safe side i have been using it at -10db. But this distribution opens up only when front channels (or other channels also) are set to full range.
If i set front channels to say even 40hz (below it is full range) a huge chunk of those rumble is gone and there is no distribution option.
5.1 channel is not impacted much and not much noticeable but in 2 channel its very evident.

I have beed trying to set all channels to full range and distribution to -20db on all channels to see a noticeable change today fully. But guess i have not hit the content that would explore these potential yet.

Since denon 4800 has a 4 channel directional subwoofer option, may be instead of standard subwoofer if we set to directional subwoofer these LFe may be routed or...???

 

[sandeepmohan]

Anyway thats what I have arrived for now...may be more light might change the perspective.

Most of what you've said makes sense.
I am surprised you had not explored this before.
Its unclear what speakers you own. Using an example of a floor stand that can play down to 50hz, you'd want to set the cut of at 60hz. Not 80hz or 100hz. Cause you can get usable bass out of them. Its also to avoid a lull in bass or a bass gap as some may call it, between the main speakers and sub woofer. This is less critical for the other channels. Nobody really cares about bass from an effects channel such as height and surround.

Channel gain is also important. Sometimes these auto calibration systems push more gain to one channel than the other. Its not an error of the system. All its doing is compensating for what the calibration mic could not pick up due to various factors such as sitting off center. The room needs to be dead quiet when this process is going on.

The good thing about these systems are that is will get it right by about 90% (Provided your room is not acting funny). The rest we can feed in by hand, which I think is alright.

 

[ssf]

Since denon 4800 has a 4 channel directional subwoofer option, may be instead of standard subwoofer if we set to directional subwoofer these LFe may be routed or...???

I have read in some other forum's where people have tried directional bass with 4 subs and they did not find a big difference. Will post if I come across anything interesting.

 

[Saiganesh]

I have read in some other forum's where people have tried directional bass with 4 subs and they did not find a big difference. Will post if I come across anything interesting.

I have tried it too and was not happy. May be it needs more workout to make it work.

The reason i mentioned about directional bass is, may be for the directional bass to work, denon has worked around the settings to cut the bass to get into subwoofer in standard mode, caz the directional effect would fade away if its passed to standard bass subwoofer (since its a single channel mono)

 

[Saiganesh]

Most of what you've said makes sense.
I am surprised you had not explored this before.
Its unclear what speakers you own. Using an example of a floor stand that can play down to 50hz, you'd want to set the cut of at 60hz. Not 80hz or 100hz. Cause you can get usable bass out of them. Its also to avoid a lull in bass or a bass gap as some may call it, between the main speakers and sub woofer. This is less critical for the other channels. Nobody really cares about bass from an effects channel such as height and surround.

Channel gain is also important. Sometimes these auto calibration systems push more gain to one channel than the other. Its not an error of the system. All its doing is compensating for what the calibration mic could not pick up due to various factors such as sitting off center. The room needs to be dead quiet when this process is going on.

The good thing about these systems are that is will get it right by about 90% (Provided your room is not acting funny). The rest we can feed in by hand, which I think is alright.

I am using polk r700 towers and r400 centre. The weakest link is the tweeter in r400 which has blown 3 times within 6months.
My monitor audio rx2 (centre) which is 6ohms 125watts (and a lot puny in size compared to polk r400 -8ohms 200watts) has been serving me well for more than a decade without any issue. And the monitor audio is still serving me in the current setup in the absence of r400.

This is to pass on the info to fellow members here, help them make informed decision and profx has been acting weird within the warranty period to replace it!!

 

[raj0909]

I'm surprised to hear that 4800H even with Audyssey didn't help you. Couple of ideas to try -
1. Did you run full calibration using the app? If you did, can you please post the a. Speaker Detection Results, and b. Room Correction Results?
2. Turn off Midrage Compensation
3. Go to Audyssey Settings and turn off Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume and LFC. IMHO, they work well only on low volume.
4. Have you tried moving speakers around in the room? IMHO sometimes I've seen surprising results.
5. Modern receivers rely heavily on subwoofers. What sub do you have and have you tried "subwoofer crawl"?
6. Finally, have you tried Flat curve instead of the default Reference curve?

 

[sopra4343]

Completely understand what you are trying to say and thats how exactly i understood the system initially.
But hear me out fully.
Initially when denon arrived it had this setting to specify speakers as large and small.
The very next day after the update this 'small' , ' large' option vanished and now its only crossover.

I had mentioned in my post about the bass missing in 2channel music.

And ofcourse there is some bass missing in 5.1 input too. May be denon needs to reiterate how this behaves or we have to work this out for understanding.

TRied many settings and could not get that bass without the LFE+ main setting.
While watching movies its not so much evident but, yes its missing! Would love to explore more setting to get this without doing this.

The is how i percieve how these settings work.
In 2 channel mode all the frequencies are fed to only 2 channels and the system tries to extract LFE separately with its own set of rules (rules=crossover).

When only LFE is sent to sub woofer without mains and when the crossover of front channels is not set to full range, the system plays the subwoofer with its own rules and may be it forgot to (a bug or??) route those frequencies that the mains are missing because of the crossover setting to the front channel.

So setting front channels to full range and reducing the distribution to -20(this is almost negligible and wont hurt speaker or amp) Routes those frequencies to the subwoofer.

Since in a 5.1 channel source (or atmos) Lfe is separately designed (separate track) and sent to subwoofer this problem is not evident but, when say a car with rumbling engine moves from left to right in a movie, the full range speakers will have those lo's (LFE) move along the left to right channel and if the front channel is not set to full range then this low rumble will be totally missing since its not routed to subwoofer (.1 channel) (caz its not playing LFE +main and only LFE. Those rumble from the main channel is not sent to subwoofer and the main speakers also dont want to play those frequencies caz of the crossover setting)

This is how the settings have been working atleast for me or this is how I have understood it.

I have already made post about crackling sound from front channel speakers and the above theory explains why this has been happening. This crackling sound is negated when distribution is set to -6db. To be on safe side i have been using it at -10db. But this distribution opens up only when front channels (or other channels also) are set to full range.
If i set front channels to say even 40hz (below it is full range) a huge chunk of those rumble is gone and there is no distribution option.
5.1 channel is not impacted much and not much noticeable but in 2 channel its very evident.

I have beed trying to set all channels to full range and distribution to -20db on all channels to see a noticeable change today fully. But guess i have not hit the content that would explore these potential yet.

Since denon 4800 has a 4 channel directional subwoofer option of school laser tag events Orange County, may be instead of standard subwoofer if we set to directional subwoofer these LFe may be routed or...???

Yes i see This is to share the information with fellow members so they can make an informed decision, as ProFX has been acting unreasonably during the warranty period and refusing to replace it.