Altec 614 Internal Damping

kratu

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I've recently got a Altec 614 cabinet built and looking for suggestions on the internal damping material. From what I gather, this part of the speaker build process is arbitrary and subjective based on preferences. And folks people tend to experiment with both the material and the amount of damping. Someone uses felt.

What I'm recommended is to just start with no damping and then gradually add material (first at the bottom, then back and sides). And see which one seems to work fine. I'm actually stuck at choosing the right material and density. Any recommendations or advice would help.
 
+1. 3-sides plus one cross-batt is usually good advice for any cab from 2 ft tall on up. You'll probably have to experiment with both internal lining and with fabric stapled over the vent.

The early ones are pretty spartan with just side pads in there and the later ones are more heavily lined.



later_614_604_gutshot.jpgearly_614_util_cab.jpg


I think (opinion, here) any big reflex box is too reflective/echo-ey when only 3-sides are lined and that there needs to be more. If you built it to the plan, depending on how it's built (what panel is removable) and how many times you can go in and out of there, I'd put material under the driver from brace to brace and make sure to span the entire width and depth. Just to cover that big main (height) standing wave -- it knocks down group delay a little and smoothens response, too--as well as keeping some HF out of the port emissions. If you have big 604's in there, there really isn'troom right under the driver to the brace, so the material should probably move to under the brace if it's thick-thick. Maybe a bad sketch helps communicate it.

brace2brace.jpg
 
My initial query was regarding which material to use. Whether glasswool/rockwool or something else. (someone suggested trying natural sheep wool). I initially tried acoustic foam but looks like it doesn't work that well. Next in the line is glasswool (yet to arrive). I'll also try Rockwool going further.

I will experiment with the positioning (where to add). I will start with the bottom, then back and sides. What I also want to know is how to evaluate if something is working? (especially without any objective measurement). Is it with the way the bass sounds? (timing, tightness). Or imaging, edginess? Does it also affect the mid-range frequencies?
 
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Yeah that foam is mostly worthless, sorry you found-out the hard-way. Fiberglass works. Cotton upholstery batting is great if you can get it and make it thick enough (multiple layers, etc).
 
Several ways at damping, depending. Big topic. Could write pages and pages. click_test_momentary_sw_is_best.jpg

Here's one start. See if this makes sense. Be back with more later.

Edit: Should've mentioned that this assumes the HF of the duplex is protected or disconnected--never do the battery test on a tweeter.
 
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Installment next, some detail:

Don't have 601C data to use, so I just grabbed a Delta12LFA (resonant ~50 instead of ~40 for 601C) so this is quantitatively *incorrect* but qualitatively valid/useful for this thread.

Okay, think empty, one batt of fiberglass, and two batts of fiberglass. (pretend the port isn't covered--limitation of my quick-hack tool).
General effects on response. fg.jpg

Now--again limitation of tool, no fiberglass etc. but think Only restricting port with layers of fabric like grille cloth (say 4-ish layers).
throt.jpg
** Technically, reducing port area is not what the fabric does but it's the easy way to show the effect on both tuning and response shape. The shape is an important indicator of damping as well.

Both of these affect tuning and damping, although you can make sound night and day different for <2Hz tuning change with lining. A third tool is to cover the rear of the driver with fabric. This is more laborious, but it's an important tool sometimes to be able to damp both the driver and the port with fabric given an existing enclosure.

over_driver.jpg

*** Old-schoolers argue technicalities like whether it's loose like this image or not--technically, this is "wrong" because it's loose (adds inertance element instead of pure resistive as a tight fabric would).

All these are interdependent and a function of your priorities and goals--it's audio, man--different people go religious about diferent things.

Be back...
 
Installment next:

The words lining/damping/stuffing/filling are applied interchangeably on the boards sometimes but the goals/effects are different even if they're part of the same activities. For reflex boxes, ignore stuffing and ignore filling as it commonly means polyester (Dacron) pillow stuffing used to fill pipes/TL's, etc. Sometimes it is done, anyway, but the effects are small/subtle and basically inapplicable to big old Altec cabs until it gets quite dense. Damping, technically, is the "systems" bit where, engineers try to match resonant bandwidths and quality factors of a driver and a volume+port to each other for whatever their goals are, often to make the net load appear more resistive than reactive to the amp. The thing is, the word is applied to voicing and interchanged with lining and so on--because the same activities address both, so people can get confused easily.

The semantics are a nebulous mess but it's the end-result on sound that one cares about. That's voicing, too. That's spectral content. Tuning might be the same, damping might be the very close, but what we hear (and can see in spectra) or measure in impulses is different. This veers into subjectivist / objectivist territory fast but here's a way to proceed and see for yourself. You will have to think about this quite a bit in advance, but, once planned, it'll be maybe 20 minutes of work. Think about how to "stage" the resistive/absorbent materials where you want them and plan that out.

Make 3 snippets of sample tracks--one with heavy percussion, one with large soundbodies (cello or piano, say), and one with a voice of someone you know Well--like a spouse or family member. Get a bunch of lining material ready and some duct tape to hold it temporarily. You can use eyelets and string or netting or...let your own mind/creativity work with what you have available.

eyelet_string_filling_support_eg.jpg

A reflex box with removable front is perfect, if that's the case, BTW, for what I do. Ensure that the connections to the driver/xo/amp etc are tight and CANNOT come loose because you'll do this "live" while moving things (and those drivers are Heavy). Lay the cabinet on its back on the floor and get ready to iterate and replace the front, just allowing gravity to hold it down. You don't have to have the completely air-tight seal for this activity--it helps, but it's a pain, too. I use rope caulk sometimes (pain to remove after squashed-into grain) or (dried) bead of RTV silicone if prototyping (also pain to remove) as a gasket. The kinds of changes you're making here don't depend on that gasket sealing -- this is macro/rough & large changes rapidly while running live. If you think you might like something and want to seal it quickly, you can use packing tape (mylar) but it doesn't impact the big changes.

If you've never done the experiments before--yes--start empty. Compare the 3 tracks...3 or 5 seconds of each. Make a change, repeat. Which makes the drums sound best? Which makes the big soundbody sound best? Follow your ears. Your job is to find the best compromise for the combination of the 3 types of material.

If you get something close to acceptable, close it up, shut it off, and come-back another day with fresh ears. I've done that, off-and-on, for weeks and months on different boxes, only to have to remove things and add a brace or something to fix a different cabinet problem or a reflection.

testing.jpg

Even if you can't measure, you can use a tone generator app to get a sweep and listen for anomalies as a separate approach.

There's more to say about related activities, but this is probably enough out of me for now. So far, so good? I sincerely applaud the interest in the inquiry and, as you can tell, I think it might be kind of important :) The time you spend on this will serve you for life, I promise you that.

Oh--if you have the rockwool, try one big-old diagonal bottom to top and front to back, whole cabinet width. You're mucking with standing waves in there and there's not only the 3 directions, but there are tangential ones bouncing around (think 5 walls etc) cross-corner and all that. It's a circus in there--and it all comes out through the cone and port and is transmitted through cabinet walls (and entirely separate but also important topic).

Parenthetically, not having 601C data and knowing 414's are closer than 604's to them, what I'm seeing is already damped decently in the 614, it just doesn't go as low as you might want (say in a bigger thing like a 612). If you are elevating it to get tweeters to ear-height anyway, perhaps some "wings" (below) as extra "baffle" is worth a try. Certainly corner placment will help if thats available, or at least wall+floor if you can tilt them backwards so the fire-upward. FWIW.

If you have a phone generator, you can find box tuning by holding your finger lightly on the cone where you sweep it. If my hacked-up 414 data (with 601 resonance) is close, it looks like about 64Hz with an empty cab. Where the cone moves the least is the box tuning freq.
 
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Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate your time. There is enough information for me to experiment for weeks. It is fascinating to know there is so much art and science to this internal damping. And it follows that there is a lot of potential yet to be unpacked.
 
Well, thanks for reading and for the patience. This stuff is secondary to box design, but more important the taller & larger the box gets, and it's important in 2-ways because every resonance is in the passband. If you just don't like the 614 LF extension at first listen and then no amount of experimentation will suffice like say a larger (eg 612) cabinet might, etc. If you go through the exercise once, though, you really wont have to repeat it all again on another new/different design because you will have heard things that allow you to proceed quickly (and know why 3 sides is a good start in general, as @sunilj said in the first place!) It really is an optimization process to squeeze every last bit out of your cab and to _know_ that you have achieved the best compromise. If the cabs are thin/cheap & muffled/muddy anyway, that obscures some things but people who buy Altec duplexes usually build nice cabs using good material so it seemed worth the typing for your project :) Some of it can be subtle, but once you hear it you can't unhear it and you'll hear it in everyone's speakers (same with bracing).

As long as I'm here, it's been useful to share this YT video on standing waves and diffraction with audio people to communicate--it's Schlieren imaging of a 28kHz lab demo (note the Mac amp!). Part 3 is worth watching--once people see that, they "get" standing waves if they hadn't otherwise. FWIW.

Keep us posted if you feel like it.
 
My initial query was regarding which material to use. Whether glasswool/rockwool or something else. (someone suggested trying natural sheep wool). I initially tried acoustic foam but looks like it doesn't work that well. Next in the line is glasswool (yet to arrive). I'll also try Rockwool going further.

I will experiment with the positioning (where to add). I will start with the bottom, then back and sides. What I also want to know is how to evaluate if something is working? (especially without any objective measurement). Is it with the way the bass sounds? (timing, tightness). Or imaging, edginess? Does it also affect the mid-range frequencies?
Hi Kratu :)

Glad to see you got off the start with your planned altec build. I had got some speaker fills off amazon a few years back to stuff my TL's. Cant find in my previous order list for some reason now. But it did make an audible difference in bass tightness. So one could tune by ear. It was some thing like the below, please search for speaker "polyfill" in amazon india and go for the densest. All the best :)

 
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