APC Online UPS neutral voltage issue

vea

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I recently purchased an APC online UPS SRC 2000XLI-CC to power my stereo set up. The UPS has a constant output of 230 V in the line, but it outputs rather high voltages in the neutral. I have measured constant 80 volts using a multi-meter in neutral when the UPS is working from the battery (mains unplugged), or up to 10 volts when the UPS is connected to the mains which corresponds to whatever voltage is present in the mains neutral. I lodged a complaint with APC and the engineer who attended the case has closed it saying this is present in all APC UPSs. He even said APC specifies the induction during battery operation is up to 100 volts. 100 volts in the neutral! I thought an online UPS would provide me with a clean line, let alone 100 volts! The engineer suggested an isolation transformer, which might solve the problem. Again, he is not sure if it will solve the problem and it is not from APC and I have to pay for it. Did anyone else here have faced the problem? I understand a few members here are using the same online UPS and I request them to check their UPS output. If its a normal thing with online UPS then what solutions do I have to save my investment?

A brief history about the unit I have at the moment. Although I have bought few UPSs from APC for home and office use in the past and it has all been very good experiences, this time APC really messed it up. I paid Rs.33075 incl. tax to a dealer in Cochin for it. Took the ups home and upon opening the sealed box, I found the UPS to be in a very bad cosmetic condition. The entire surface was scratched, the screw heads were worn and the feet showing signs of usage. I complained to the dealer who promised to get me a new unit. An APC engineer inspected the UPS, and he too was convinced the machine didnt look new which he reported. I was given a replacement 2 weeks later, delivered in my absence. The delivery report said the unit was replaced due to an internal fault! This again was delivered without a box and had signs of wear. I talked to the engineer who inspected the unit and he promised that it is a new one, and they retained the box only because they wanted to send the taken back unit in it. I believed, or at least convinced myself that I believed, and hooked up my system to the UPS a few days later. I felt a hum through the speakers, not very loud, but louder than before and definitely louder than connecting it directly to the mains. This made me check the output voltage from the UPS.
 
Have you connected any surge suppressor to your UPS out ? Some inexpensive surge suppressors sometimes cause a high voltage in neutral or ground even on a good, clean power supply.

What are you planning to use the UPS for ?
For music, I prefer good surge suppressor and a servo setup or a direct to power line connection (if your region has good clean power supply).
 
Thinking on the lines. But what about the neutral voltage? I am being fooled here for a second time?
 
Have you connected any surge suppressor to your UPS out ? Some inexpensive surge suppressors sometimes cause a high voltage in neutral or ground even on a good, clean power supply.

What are you planning to use the UPS for ?
For music, I prefer good surge suppressor and a servo setup or a direct to power line connection (if your region has good clean power supply).

I havent connected any surge suppressors. Infact these voltage readings are without any load connected to the UPS.

I bought it to feed my stereo set up which includes Ayon CD2, Rethm Gaanam amp and Rethm Saadhana speakers which also require power.
 
I havent connected any surge suppressors. Infact these voltage readings are without any load connected to the UPS.

I bought it to feed my stereo set up which includes Ayon CD2, Rethm Gaanam amp and Rethm Saadhana speakers which also require power.

Since we are talking only audio here, why do you need a UPS?

I would have opted for a UPS for a movie projector which needs to cool down or something similar. For music- a servo with power conditioner should have worked. Try to sell off your UPS and get a servo and conditioner from Audire.
 
I recently purchased an APC online UPS SRC 2000XLI-CC to power my stereo set up. The UPS has a constant output of 230 V in the line, but it outputs rather high voltages in the neutral. I have measured constant 80 volts using a multi-meter in neutral when the UPS is working from the battery (mains unplugged), or up to 10 volts when the UPS is connected to the mains which corresponds to whatever voltage is present in the mains neutral. I lodged a complaint with APC and the engineer who attended the case has closed it saying this is present in all APC UPSs. He even said APC specifies the induction during battery operation is up to 100 volts. 100 volts in the neutral! I thought an online UPS would provide me with a clean line, let alone 100 volts! The engineer suggested an isolation transformer, which might solve the problem. Again, he is not sure if it will solve the problem and it is not from APC and I have to pay for it. Did anyone else here have faced the problem? I understand a few members here are using the same online UPS and I request them to check their UPS output. If its a normal thing with online UPS then what solutions do I have to save my investment?

A brief history about the unit I have at the moment. Although I have bought few UPSs from APC for home and office use in the past and it has all been very good experiences, this time APC really messed it up. I paid Rs.33075 incl. tax to a dealer in Cochin for it. Took the ups home and upon opening the sealed box, I found the UPS to be in a very bad cosmetic condition. The entire surface was scratched, the screw heads were worn and the feet showing signs of usage. I complained to the dealer who promised to get me a new unit. An APC engineer inspected the UPS, and he too was convinced the machine didnt look new which he reported. I was given a replacement 2 weeks later, delivered in my absence. The delivery report said the unit was replaced due to an internal fault! This again was delivered without a box and had signs of wear. I talked to the engineer who inspected the unit and he promised that it is a new one, and they retained the box only because they wanted to send the taken back unit in it. I believed, or at least convinced myself that I believed, and hooked up my system to the UPS a few days later. I felt a hum through the speakers, not very loud, but louder than before and definitely louder than connecting it directly to the mains. This made me check the output voltage from the UPS.

Having 100 volts at the neutral with respect to earth and the justification from the dealer/company that all the UPS have the problem is an outright abuse on you ... The neutral point should be at the same potential as the earth. Escalate this to the highest level and tell them that either they should replace an issue free system or refund it. Use all the channels (phone, email, etc) to escalate the issue.

If the voltage level at the neutral is at 100 volts, then effective voltage supplied to your hi-fi system will be around (220 - 100)= 120 volts. Feeding less voltage to your hi-fi may also involve pulling more current amps in order to meet the power requirements. Also do not use that APC system with your hi-fi system. It is your hard earned money ... Wish you good luck in getting the issue resolved.
 
Since we are talking only audio here, why do you need a UPS?

I would have opted for a UPS for a movie projector which needs to cool down or something similar. For music- a servo with power conditioner should have worked. Try to sell off your UPS and get a servo and conditioner from Audire.

We have frequent power failures here hence some amount of back up to shut the system off is required. I had given it some thought before purchasing the ups. Back up, voltage correction, isolation from mains and some amount of power conditioning drew me into online ups. Yes, i am seriously thinking of other alternatives, but would like to really know if i have a faulty unit in hand.

Having 100 volts at the neutral with respect to earth and the justification from the dealer/company that all the UPS have the problem is an outright abuse on you ... The neutral point should be at the same potential as the earth. Escalate this to the highest level and tell them that either they should replace an issue free system or refund it. Use all the channels (phone, email, etc) to escalate the issue.

If the voltage level at the neutral is at 100 volts, then effective voltage supplied to your hi-fi system will be around (220 - 100)= 120 volts. Feeding less voltage to your hi-fi may also involve pulling more current amps in order to meet the power requirements. Also do not use that APC system with your hi-fi system. It is your hard earned money ... Wish you good luck in getting the issue resolved.

Thanks for the input. Apart from what you have mentioned, i also worry about serious shock hazard if i connect unearthed equipments. Is it possible? And yes, i will be going after them for sure. I have taken it out and kept aside. After one month and two units, i am yet to get any real use of the ups.
 
We have frequent power failures here hence some amount of back up to shut the system off is required. I had given it some thought before purchasing the ups. Back up, voltage correction, isolation from mains and some amount of power conditioning drew me into online ups. Yes, i am seriously thinking of other alternatives, but would like to really know if i have a faulty unit in hand.



Thanks for the input. Apart from what you have mentioned, i also worry about serious shock hazard if i connect unearthed equipments. Is it possible? And yes, i will be going after them for sure. I have taken it out and kept aside. After one month and two units, i am yet to get any real use of the ups.

Yes, there is a possibility for the shock hazard if an equipments has it's body connected to the neutral.
 
A small update. I had asked APC for the reason why I find voltage in neutral to earth line. They have given an explanation by mail which I quote

"Dear Sir,

APC Smart UPS/Back UPS's Neutral is isolated during battery operation. Our product was designed to meet all the safety requirements to bear the UL mark. Recently UL has reversed their position on continuous neutrals and has made changes to their standards, which require both hot and neutral to be broken during battery operation.

One result of breaking the input Neutral and Hot connections when operating on battery is that you may be able to measure voltage between Neutral and Ground at the output receptacles when the UPS is on battery. This is phantom voltage which cannot damage equipment.

The connected equipment will not be harmed due to phantom voltage which reads between Neutral and Ground when UPS is on battery mode.

For more information, pls view the APC K-base document in the below link:
K-Base Answer ID: FA156549
FAQ

I hope that this clarifies your concern. Pls let me know if there is any query. Thanks! "


Thought of sharing with others here and could be useful information for members looking to buy APC products for their AV use.
 
Yes phantom, its new but interesting

Hello Vea,

While scrolling through, this topic interested me. I think I know this problem which is common in the call centre buildings having lot of UPS. UPS produce lot of harmonics(for the time being take this as distortion of sine waveforms!) on the line. In a three phase system if all the phases have distortion / harmonics it produces harmonic currents/distrotion in the neutral.

Usually neutral should have no current and so with respect to earth the neutral should not show any voltage. If the above mentioned currents are present then the neutral will show voltage with respect to earth. I think this is what is happening in your case.

Following might be the possibilites:

1. APC delivered might be a faulty one. Anyway as you have mentioend that it looks like a used one I think you need to anyway fight and get a new one. Write to the top persons in the APC organisation chances are that they will respond if not only your mail might be a waste. SO definitely take up the case with them.

2. Your power supply itself might have distortion. It might be due to either your power supply neutral is not grounded properly. If you are staying in a apartment chances are that it might not be properly gounded. Just check the neutral voltage wrt to earth at any point. If it is, then your problem is solved.

otherwise if the neutral is properly gounded then the line might be having distortion on the line. Just take any digital multimeter/oscilloscope which displays harmonics and check the waveform. If it is not sine wave then there might have been a big or no of UPS operation on the same 220 V line as yours ie you are in the vicinity of a big office most probably a IT office.

Pleas check the above.
 
Thanks for your inputs. I did check my input neutral which shows up to 8 volts. I have decided to ground the socket separately which will be done in a couple of weeks. I live in an independent house in a residential area, and there are no offices for a couple of kilometers around.

Whatever voltage is present in the input neutral is simply passed through the output when the mains are available. When mains are not available i get 80 volts. Only the output voltage in the Line remains a constant 230 V. i expected an online UPS of this caliber to filter out some irregularities in the mains line. But in fact it just adds to it. I plan to go to consumer court, let them prove the Phantom in the court!
 
Dear Sir

If you connected the neutral output terminal to Earth there should be

no problem, in inverter mode the output if floating from Earth

This is normally referred to Earth input terminal to UPS via a link

APC state this link is noy being put now

I think it could be because in US 100V system there is no Neutral

the Second terminal to line is Earth only

I recommend a short between neutral output terminal and power earth

If you have 8V this is just about OK
 
i will try that, infact i was thinking in these lines. But I am not sure how the ELCB is going to behave if I short neutral to earth.
 
VEA,

What is the voltage you are getting between Neutral and Line terminals from the UPS?

Did you measured Neutral to Earth, Line to Earth, Neutral to Line voltages without UPS , directly on you wall socket? If not, can you do these measurements?

It would be much better to analyze the situation if you measure the above said voltages on wall socket and also from the output of UPS both.

Is your Earth connection terminated correctly?

Kanwar
 
Hey Kanwar,

I was measuring the readings at the new place I moved in recently. Line to Neutral is 230 to 235. Neutral to Earth and Line to Earth is absolutely zero. No reading ! What does it mean ? The Earth is not connected?
 
Hey Kanwar,

I was measuring the readings at the new place I moved in recently. Line to Neutral is 230 to 235. Neutral to Earth and Line to Earth is absolutely zero. No reading ! What does it mean ? The Earth is not connected?


Line to earth MUST show full scale atleast, else you know there is no earth :D

Ideally there is 10-50VAC difference is always there in neutral and earth due to potential differences in various leakage currents involved in the path from locality transformer to the wall socket.:)

But in dedicated installation site neutral is always connected to earth and is setup with best possible way.
 
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