Are CD Player still relevant?

[mpw]

Hi mpw, I totally agree if the case being made is "purpose built device vs general purpose computer". No arguments that a purpose built device offers far more convenience and ease of use. My point was more towards CD as a format specifically, and the usefulness of CD players compared to modern options.

There are plenty of purpose built audio playback devices that use a hard drive or SSD drive as a storage mechanism too - with an inbuilt DAC or without. One doesn't necessarily have to understand bits and bytes, nor does one have to hand assemble one's computer. You can find the same level of convenience in all these devices too.

The DAC argument again is about how discrete you want to get in terms of your equipment chain. And yes of course, it is trickier to setup a pre-pro instead of an integrated, but that has its benefits too, and many people do it too. And these devices will do a lot more fro you - if you give them a chance!

For what it is worth, CD sales have been declining at record levels (pun unintended), except for Japan(!), and the writing is on the wall that CDs will become increasingly harder to find, just as CD players will become increasingly unserviceable. That is just the course of technology. Like tape decks and VCRs. The cost efficiencies of distributing digital audio over the internet is just too powerful for CDs to compete.

So no, CD players are in the dying end of the technology curve, will soon become obsolete, and are thus not relevant for someone building a new system. If one already has done the investment, that is a different matter. The audiophile world adopts technology at a different pace anyway, and at any rate, it is like having a well running but old car. No point selling it but no point buying it either.

arun,

i hope you guessed i belong to no camp though i use a good CDP and i have illustrated why it works for me.

My point is not about the efficiency of storage which dheerajin has alluded to. In the audio field efficiency is not everything and it may not produce the best sound possible.

as bhagwan and prem have referred to - getting the sound you like from a PC is not so easy ( does that rhyme ?? :lol: ) and that makes me queasy !!

regards
mpw

 

[dheerajin]

My point is not about the efficiency of storage which dheerajin has alluded to. In the audio field efficiency is not everything and it may not produce the best sound possible.

as bhagwan and prem have referred to - getting the sound you like from a PC is not so easy ( does that rhyme ?? :lol: ) and that makes me queasy !!

regards
mpw

MPW,

CDP= Transport+ DAC, here efficiency of transport is being considered and
a good dedicated music PC can be compared to transports inside CDP worth 2-3 Lakhs and if you can add hi-end DAC, then nothing like that for best sound.
Tweaking a music PC for best results is only one time activity and all is done for that PC to act as a good transport and for the best sound possible you need good DAC.

25K INR PC + 1lac DAC= 4 lac worth of CDP IMO. Others may differ in this opinion , but ranjeetrain has also put forth this point in his earlier post.

so from the start efficency of the transport is being discussed in this thread,
and DAC is responsible for the sound signature.

 

[Ambio]

... That doesn't mean the difference isnt there - it just means that it is not important to the way I experience movies (even though I am someone who enjoys watching them).

Exactly! if you cant tell then why bother? There are subjective and objective methods to validate picture quality and they always correlates.

BTW, I don't have a Blu-Ray player .

 

[mpw]

MPW,

CDP= Transport+ DAC, here efficiency of transport is being considered and
a good dedicated music PC can be compared to transports inside CDP worth 2-3 Lakhs and if you can add hi-end DAC, then nothing like that for best sound.
Tweaking a music PC for best results is only one time activity and all is done for that PC to act as a good transport and for the best sound possible you need good DAC.

25K INR PC + 1lac DAC= 4 lac worth of CDP IMO. Others may differ in this opinion , but ranjeetrain has also put forth this point in his earlier post.

so from the start efficency of the transport is being discussed in this thread,
and DAC is responsible for the sound signature.

last point first..

the question posed is simple - are CD player still relevant ??

where is the efficiency of transport being asked here ?

ofcourse you and ranjeetrain and all other are entitled to their opinion as i am entitled to mine.

Rightness is not being discussed here.

to my layman logic 25k pc + 1 lac dac = 4 lac CDP sounds like a scam :lol:

tweaking a PC maybe a one time activity but you end up using the equalizers etc.. more than you would as each genre and each recording level may be different from album to album.

what do you have to say to those who use a good CDP as a transport ? are they silly to use it when a cheap 25k pc can do the trick ?

now there is talk of separate power supplies.... for PC.... when is all this going to end ? when will we focus on the music ?

to my mind the old HH adage of fill it shut it forget it applies to a good CDP and not to PC audio ( atleast for the moment )

I do not dis-regard PC audio but i am of the opinion that a good PC audio costs good money much in excess of the 25k you refer to and thats my point of difference.

YMMV..

regards
mpw

 

[prem]

Hi Ambio

I assumed it was you

The point is different people hear differently. Which is why there are so many manufacturers and so many different view points.

Now you heard a difference between Sound Labs and Harbeth and decided to go for Sound Labs which is more expensive than the Harbeths you owned. But someone else might not hear a difference. He on the other hand might hear a difference between a USD 700 and a USD 12000 cd player and feel the difference is justified. Both, according to me are right in their choices.

In our hobby, with so many subjectives, i feel its best to live and let live.

 

[vnmathur57]

A CD player is very convenient. One should buy the best he can afford, though availability of CDs is a problem. In case of computer audio, one has to be soooo much knowledgeable about hardware, software, Internet, sites, DACs, various file forms, etc etc. I generally make a ceremony of my `Happy Hours- take the best bottle I can afford, polish the glass to a sparkle, arrange my easy chair & side table, get my favorite meat, fork, napkins etc, - and I love it. That is like a vinyl or CD session. You can relax/unwind for some time without bothering about the technicalities. But it does not mean that this is the best way. Enjoying music is like enjoying food personal preferences are most important.

 

[jai1611]

25K INR PC + 1lac DAC= 4 lac worth of CDP IMO. Others may differ in this opinion , but ranjeetrain has also put forth this point in his earlier post.

While I agree that you can better sound out of a PC + DAC at the same price compared to CD players, I think your numbers are a bit off. You would need to spend closer to 2l or higher on DAC or DAC + USB interface/Sound Card to try and match a 4l CD player. 1l today is about US$1600. The ones that come to mind at that price point are the Mytek or maybe the Nad. Neither of them would really compare to a 4l CD player - US$6.5k at international prices.

Also, 25k for the PC is hardware alone, add a bit more for software (even if just Windows).

 

[Ambio]

Hi Ambio

I assumed it was you

......In our hobby, with so many subjectives, i feel its best to live and let live.

Not me...


This is not food or wine where the subjective opinion is just that -subjective. You may like one better than the other. In most cases, you could positively identify them even though you do not like it.

If someone is having trouble to distinguish ESL and driver type speakers than they should just stick to mini-combos.

 

[prem]

Every once in a while i have sessions at my place where a few forum members land up. In one of these sessions, Santy made a very interesting comment. He mentioned that he liked to listen to music at volume levels which mimiced unamplified levels. What he meant was, if somebody were to play a guitar in my house, how loud would it be? He wanted to hear music from my system at those vol levels.

I normally prefer listening to music at higher levels. I was however intrigued by Santy's suggestion. So next day i got my daughter to play violin. Then i played some violin piece through my system and tried to keep the same vol level. I thought the tone was fine but resolution, low level details, body, harmonics and dynamics were lacking. If i raised the vol, lot of problems got solved. So i figured out i probably need to further reduce the noise floor level.

Subsequent, i have added some more room treatment to reduce room noise. Secondly i have sent my amp for some upgrades. The power transformer which is EI based and not toroidal since DC offsets had to be managed, was generating radiations. So in discussion with Viren have decided to go for a copper shield around the transformer which would be grounded. This hopefully will minimise the radiation. Secondly, have decided to move the input rca sockets to the front on the right side so that the cable from the socket carrying the low level signal does not have to pass through the power section in the back. Basic idea was to reduce chances of power interference.

The point i am trying to make is its not everytime one needs to spend money to improve the sound. If one can identify the problem thats bothering them, there could be simple ways to address them

 

[mpw]

That means you do not understand the basic construction(components) of CDP or PC.
Ignorance is bliss..enjoy the music:lol:

I do not use equalizer at all and know no one who uses that.

i do know of some who do and thst why i mentioned. Just because you dont use it doesnt mean others dont.

btw,thank you sir for your kind wishes..

i will go back to my music ... it seems to be the best thing to do rather than get into senseless debates which neither can convince.

Simplicity of operation and good sound is what makes a good CDP relevant - to me

Confusion / chaotic specifications and mumbo jumbo / non-standardization is what makes PC Audio irrelevant ( at the moment ) - to me

I hope the OP is answered in large part that the inferences derived in audio is largely driven by what is relevant to the person who spends the money on audiogear.

have fun !!

mpw

 

[captrajesh]

Some would rather use their ears to judge sound but when it comes to buying gold or 1kg onion or 1 liter petrol they would rely on measurements rather than their senses. Dr.Bowes described this as a new form of neurosis known as audiophilia. He discovered that long before I was even born!

Forget apple to apple comparison this is not even fruit to any other fruit comparison. Do you sincerely believe stereotyping all of them as one bunch is a correct thing to do!

I think this thread is a strong contender for the Cotton Candy Award, for maximum flavour and zero nutrition.

LOL

If technical information is not true, then it is not technical information. As a DIYer and an enthusiastic experimenter, I'm sure you use a lot of technical information prior to the listening stage?

Of course it is true but is of only academic interest to me. But my opinion would be based only on my listening.

In our hobby, with so many subjectives, i feel its best to live and let live.

True that Prem. Read my signature.

 

[bhagwan]

start efficiency of the transport is being discussed in this thread,
and DAC is responsible for the sound signature.

Exactly;

Let us keep the DAC as a 'constant'

Now, if we feed the DAC with a Digital Signal from a CD Transport & from a Computer the sound will change.

Let us for 2 minutes digress a bit, I feed the SAME DAC [Meitner MA-1] with a signal from the Hibernating Machine [Computer with J Play] & use AES from a RME Card or Use a USB Cable the sound changes.
To add to that - if I change the USB Cable from A Charlin to Absolu Creations to Transparent Audio - again the sound changes. Then again - I change the CAT 6 / 7 Cable between the 2 Computers [ J Play ] & the sound changes [I did not want to bring it up here - just ignore this statement - please] - the point I am trying to make is - all small things that are changed - show up - acoustically on a set up.

While, if a CD Transport is fed to the same DAC [Meitner MA-1] the 'variables' are dramatically reduced - cause we do not have options.

[p.s. I request all not to start off on the double blind test - please]....

Computers as Music Transports are Excellent in theory. But they need to be worked on & tweaked a lot & they are a never ending excercise. Therefore for a person that wants a 'simple' solution a OPPO 105 as a Transport into a Good DAC is an Excellent Solution - budget level i.e. [under 5 lacs] !

:indifferent14:

Sure the Quality of the Transport can go North & even the DAC can be worked on & improved - all depends on how deep ones pocket is...

 

[Ambio]

Hi Ambio

I could also turn back and say if you cant hear a difference between a USD 700 cd player and a USD 12000 cd player, you might as well stick to mini combos

Dear Prem, that means you should stop chasing CD players and concentrate on speakers where the difference is pronounced and passes DBT. Although, the description of the sound is subjective, i.e. some may like it and some don't but under DBT they are detectable. The truth is whether it is CDP or PC, the possible slight difference could not be detectable reliably under DBT or according to industry standards for subjective evaluation.

Expensive CDP are more reliable and less influenced by extraneous variable. It got a better PSU, more reliable mechanism and parts.

 

[jls001]

Where's the OP? Have we scared him away with too much talk?

BTW, computer audio is not a "one-time tweak and forget it" affair. There are endless upgrade paths, both opearating system and playback applications, and computer hardware, each bringing real and perceived benefits. If you think turntable enthusiasts are tweak freaks, you should see some computer audio enthusiasts I know.

And it's not cheap either. You can easily spend 50-60K on buying good computer hardware and assembling it, or getting it assembled by a good technician. Add cost of legit softwares and you're already touching a lakh. Now add the cost of a good DAC (from a dazzling array of choices in a continuously evolving field, meaning it is extremely difficult to know what is best even within one's budget, and live with the real danger that it will be superseded in performance in the very near future by something that may even cost lesser). If you want to go the path of a good sound card instead of USB (which fortunately has evolved from its early beginnings to an acceptable level), add another 30K.

Being an evolving field, it needs active involvement from the user to stay abreast of developments, and even further involvement to follow those upgrade paths.

No, I'm not dissing computer audio. I've heard some very fine computer audio setups. And I've invested lots of time and money in building mine. I just wanted to clarify on the part about convenience and ease of setup.

 

[bhagwan]

Simplicity of operation and good sound is what makes a good CDP relevant - to me

Confusion / chaotic specifications and mumbo jumbo / non-standardization is what makes PC Audio irrelevant ( at the moment ) - to me

mpw

Excellent;

I could not agree any more.

Both points are pertinent.

Therefore to me 'CD Players are Still Relevant' !
As the Thread States - is 100 % Correct;

p.s. Yet, I do not own one - sad...

 

[jls001]

Dear Prem, that means you should stop chasing CD players

He's stopped chasing CD players. He doesn't have one he don't have a music PC either. He's evolved to a "vinyl only" setup

and concentrate on speakers where the difference is pronounced

He's into that too he'd just upgraded to a pair of spanking new speakers.

...passes DBT

Don't know about this part.

 

[Ambio]

Where's the OP? Have we scared him away with too much talk?

.....

Maybe OP is now interested in Wyred DAC and not CDP.

 

[dheerajin]

Where's the OP? Have we scared him away with too much talk?

BTW, computer audio is not a "one-time tweak and forget it" affair. There are endless upgrade paths, both opearating system and playback applications, and computer hardware, each bringing real and perceived benefits. If you think turntable enthusiasts are tweak freaks, you should see some computer audio enthusiasts I know.

And it's not cheap either. You can easily spend 50-60K on buying good computer hardware and assembling it, or getting it assembled by a good technician. Add cost of legit softwares and you're already touching a lakh. Now add the cost of a good DAC (from a dazzling array of choices in a continuously evolving field, meaning it is extremely difficult to know what is best even within one's budget, and live with the real danger that it will be superseded in performance in the very near future by something that may even cost lesser). If you want to go the path of a good sound card instead of USB (which fortunately has evolved from its early beginnings to an acceptable level), add another 30K.

Being an evolving field, it needs active involvement from the user to stay abreast of developments, and even further involvement to follow those upgrade paths.

No, I'm not dissing computer audio. I've heard some very fine computer audio setups. And I've invested lots of time and money in building mine. I just wanted to clarify on the part about convenience and ease of setup.

Jls001,
You are talking about upgrade path and it is applicable to all components of audio world.
I am talking about tweaking of dedicated music PC not upgrade.
From last one year i have not touched my PC setting and dont wish to do it in future and do not want to upgrade its hardware or software and i am much content now.
So for guys like me its one time tweaking....for rest...sky is the limit

 

[Nikhil]

This has been an interesting read so far.

In answer to the OP: my answer is that the CD Player is still very much relevant.
A PC transport + DAC is an alternative but is not trivial to implement in my experience.

In the Indian scenario, Indian music is available mostly in CD format. So if you are a listener of Indian Classical, Bollywood, etc the CD is the preferred format. Hi res digital audio is almost non-existent as far as I know. It also goes that English Audio CDs are widely available so again this validates the CD player.

If you listen primarily to Western music then a PC Transport + DAC is a viable option simply based on the huge amount of material available in digital formats. With online content providers, you have access to very high quality material. A DAC with PC transport is usually more expensive than a CD player but you get explosive convenience with regard to media storage and access. Another advantage of PC audio is the capability of using parametric filters which is an interesting option which when properly done does wonders to a system.

The key takeaway is that the PC Transport + DAC is not the silver bullet that it's made out to be. Setting up Computer Audio requires a lot of care to be setup right. Each addition to the chain adds as much as it takes away. This is a frustrating area of computer audio. ex USB gives you convenience but adds jitter to the setup.

Despite what is being said all around, it takes a serious system to actually reach the limits of 16/44.1 audio. If I might put a Rupee value to it: I would say the price of admission to the club is in the region of Rs 6 - 8 lakhs with gear from commercial brands. If you are into DIY this would lower the price. So based on where you are on your audiophile journey, the CD is still a viable option until you reach the boundary limits of the format.

 

[Ambio]

If one is happy with his CDP or PC, so be it. But please do not speak conclusively of his emotional decision. It is not everyone with a fat wallet and their interest in Hifi is purely for good sound. Think about their precious money and time wasted getting the priorities wrong.

You are influencing others to give away their hard earned money chasing a something that isn't the answer. Those money could go into a better speakers, to buy original CDs which can help the musicians.

It will start with X is better than Y. If still not good enough, then try cable A with X...... I only hope that whenever you make a new purchase, the difference must be positive to you and also others. It should be plainly different and preferably an improvement.

That's all I have to say. Unless someone could find fault with the 700 vs 12000 system DBT.