Audio Lounge - London

There's one more thing that bears mentioning: The hifi scene in India is really only restricted to the ultra high end. There is no concept of "sensible" hifi. Here, I don't just mean price, although price is often the single biggest blocking factor.

I also mean sensible in terms of size, WAF, safety, versatility etc. In many cases, the sheer size, weight, and heat generated is a challenge for even many of the humongous houses in the US, much less the 2000 square feet apartments that most people live in (and that are really 1400 square feet after all the "saleable area" shenanigans). I mean, honestly, who is going to setup and run tube monoblocks in their 10 x 20 living room especially with kids running around? Yes, a few will, but only a very very few.

There most certainly is a micro-niche market for the enthusiasts who want no-holds barred performance and quality - be it Class A or large horns or whatever. However, if you are going to talk about marketability and practicality, these "prestige" products are none of the above. What sells is entry level Class AB hifi built to a price, and more importantly, mid-fi that is pricey but not ridiculously so, large but not so large it won't fit in a standard cabinet, and will not be a safety hazard for your children.

My point is - even in the examples that Bhagwan posted, all had Nautilus class equipment or higher. I mean, okay, I'm not buying onions in the sabzi-mandi, but neither am I buying a Rolex. To be clear, I'm talking about myself personally (I prefer no-nonsense stuff) but also think it holds true for many others.

Bose actually gets it. It gives people what they want or what they think they want. Or at least it gives them an experience in their sound rooms that most people have never had. And most people think that's "as good as it gets" when it comes to quality audio. And how tragic is that? Especially if they knew that far better quality is to be had for far less money?

Personally, I have never felt that multi-channel audio is inferior to stereo. Its like saying stereo is inferior to mono! Multi-channel is only inferior to stereo in a given price point. I've always felt that the same motivation that people have to buy a home theater setup (loudness, clarity, bass, construction quality, prestige, bling factor, etc.) should apply to a stereo setup. The reason why they don't is only because of utter lack of access and choice and even information.

I mean it is not just hifi. You will see this de-exclusivity happening in other niche sectors as well. People will come back to India from their stints abroad, and will wonder why the heck they can't pay green fees and play golf on a course of their choice in India, instead of having to wait for 10 years, get "sponsored", pull strings, and finally get a coveted club membership.

Honestly, this is not targeted at dealers or anyone in particular, and apologies if anyone feels bad. That is most certainly not my intention. It is just frustrating to see how poorly developed this market is.
 
Guys, we Indians have a lot of money.....Check out the stores selling high end watches, jewellery, clothes, restaurants/bars and you will be seeing huge numbers....The very average shopkeeper/trader's children do not blink when buying a beer for Rs.300 at the average pubs/bars and run up bills of Rs. 15,000 - 20,000 on a night out....

So no dearth of money in our country....

I didn't say we don't have money. Having money and being able to afford something relative to western/developed world are two entirely different things. You are mixing up.

Anyway, since you are talking about people having money to splurge, let's put that in perspective.

What you see in Indian stores and think of "high-end" is barely beginning to touch the starting line for high-end. How many "high-end" watches/jewlerry stores in India do you think might be dealing with watches above INR 1 million? I think less than 10. As Indians we think watches costing over a lac are high-end. That's too naive. Real high end watches begin at 10 lacs. And in all of India there may not be even 10-15 stores dealing in them. Where as in just one city London there may be more than 25 shops selling watches well exceeding that range. Same for Shanghai, Beijing, Singapore, Tokyo, Paris, Rome, Berlin or Amsterdam. So your perception about high-end isn't really valid, especially in the context of worldwide consumer market.

You see a bunch of rich blokes go and blow their dads money in pubs and begin to think we are a rich country? Let's think about it more deeply.

In how many cities do you think there would be pubs where kids spend 15k on a night out? Let's say 12? On average, how many such pub would be there per city? Let's say 10 (on average)? How many customers these pubs may handle everyday? Let's say 100? How many of these might be repeat customers and how many of these unique customers? Let's say each such pub serves 10000 unique customers each year. So we have 12x10x10000=12,00,000 such people. What is our population? 1.2 billion. That's 0.01 % of our population. So do you really think 0.01% people you are talking about represent our country?
 
Even if the Dartzeel is sold for 1.5 Lakhs the sales may increase according to the number of audiophiles in a country thats it. It will never reach a common people because of lack of Interest rather then lack of Exposure.
Products like Dartzeel or even a Bryston or Theil is not affordable to an average person living in America or Europe.

Cheers

Sir,
I 100 % agree with all that you have said.
Audio - Low Fi or Mid Fi or what ever, will only grow if there is an interest in it...
If a product does not interest you - what does the price have anything to do with it ?
Caviar [Beluga] is expensive [so I think at least]
Even if it got cheap [i.e. the price became 1/10th of its current] & still would not eat it - I just do not like its taste when had with hard boiled egg & cream & vodka.
So, if audio is not a priority for some person, what ever the price it - he will not be interested in it..

All of us can do this - ask amongst our friends & relatives - how many like or have any idea about 2 channel hi fi audio ? I do not have a single friend or family member that likes audio - lots are music lovers - but none follow it like I do.
In fact I visit music concerts alone - do not have any friend or family that either understands it nor are they interested in it.
So, if they do not listen to live - where will they get a 'perspective' of what a system can / should sound like ?
:cool:
 
That is most certainly not my intention. It is just frustrating to see how poorly developed this market is.

Sir,
I agree with you;
The market in India - is just way too under developed.
Basic / Most people have no idea of what is going on.
Mobile Phones Sell & people buy headphones to listen to their music in mp3 format on those phones - that is about it;
 
I am not so sure - if people in Punjab & Chandigarh can or cannot 'afford'
I am not sure on the facts, but I believe that maximum number of 'luxury' cars in India are sold in the above stated places;
Therefore Money does exist - I think the problem lies in 'awareness' & 2 channel audio being on their 'priority list'

p.s. Kindly excuse my example - it cannot be substantiated by me - cars of high value being sold in Punjab etc.

Sir, I pointed this out in the previous post, and give it a go again. Hope I succeed.

Having money is not same as being able to afford.

A lot of Indians, and not only Ludhiana brothers, can afford cars costing INR 2-3-6-8 million. But they cannot afford 2 million on a two channel music system.

Please rise above the realms of theory and see the real world. That's how it works in real world and that's how real world uses the word "afford". Think about it, please.
 
Guys, we Indians have a lot of money.....Check out the stores selling high end watches, jewellery, clothes, restaurants/bars and you will be seeing huge numbers....The very average shopkeeper/trader's children do not blink when buying a beer for Rs.300 at the average pubs/bars and run up bills of Rs. 15,000 - 20,000 on a night out....

So no dearth of money in our country....

I would tend to agree with 'panditji's statement.
India has the money.

Sir, sorry to put cold water on your enthu. Here is something for you to read.

800px-Gdpercapita.PNG


As you can see in we are an extremely poor country. Only marginally better than the poorest of poor Africans.


I like how you like to substantiate what you say. I hope you can share some data with us to substantiate what you said about India having money.
 
I know India is a poor country & that is known by all;
No 2 ways about that...
Number of millionaires may rise 53% to 84,000 in India by 2017: report - NDTVProfit.com
However, India has a huge disparity between the financial health of Indian Citizens.
Countries with most millionaires: India ranked at 15 - Rediff.com Business
Some reports state that India is # 15th in the world.

However, all this is circumspect;
What is important is rather simple...
If Indian had the money, would they spend on Hi Fi - 2 channel audio - that is what this thread is all about - I think.
My personal opinion is NO.
Even if India [citizens] had the money to spend - the awareness levels - just do not exist;
People have not 'evolved' to that level to understand / appreciate / acknowledge what audio is all about.
We had a huge tradition of music in our culture, but people these days listen to hindi bollywood songs from current movies on their phone in mp3 format - just to enjoy the tunes - not for the clarity / fidelity of it;
 
From your first link: "The report states that 95 per cent of Indias population has wealth below $10,000. In comparison, only a small proportion of the population (just 0.3 per cent) has a net worth over $100,000." clarifies my point. The potential target for such high end products can only be a small portion of this 0.3%.

You see, the wealth that we are talking about, is not with people with passion in hifi. The people who would actually like to own high-end sound reproduction systems are mostly common men on this forum. A very very small portion of those billionaires among whom the wealth of India is concenterated would be the target of the products we are talking about.

Briefly speaking, the Indians who can afford it are not into the hobby. Those who are in hobby, are dying for high-end can't afford it. Hence you don't have a market.
 
I do not know if it is due to lack of awareness or not, but Indians in majority are still conservative. As many in the forum said, people have money, but still they are skeptical about spending it on an audio gear. Indians (like any other in the world) love music, but they may not be willing to spend too much just for the clarity/fidelity of hifi audio. The other perspective is that many believe the greatest compositions need not be tied to hearing the same on an hifi audio system. I know a friend who drinks/sleeps/eats all with the music. He is so mad that he will be listening music for at least 14 to 16 hours a day. You believe it or not, he is just using his old and small creative speakers connected to his PC for the last 15 years. When I asked him on upgrading his audio system, he said that it didn't matter at all to him on whether he used an hifi audio or an ordinary audio system for listening soulful music. So like this, there are many reasons. Also, many outside the forum is not even aware of what an amplifier is. They tend to think that those are used only for gigantic loud speakers used in big public functions. We generally talk about people living in cities and who participates in AV forums, but the rest are still not aware if there ever existed hifi audio systems. This is the fact.

Yes, some people do love music, but they give least preference to the audio. They believe that it is more than enough to hear good music on a decent audio system and anything beyond that like clarity, fidelity, etc are considered to be a luxury from their point of view. I don't know if it is good or bad, but it may take some more time for the change to happen. In my childhood, buying a car was considered to be a luxury, but that has changed now. This change is slowly happening for other consumer items as well. How many members in this forum would have got introduced to hifi systems a decade back ? It would have been small and the group is slowly expanding and it will take some time.
 
Ranjeet, I agree with you on many counts but the point of this thread as stated by Mazher as well is that inspite of having money, people generally do not want to spend money on a good audio system.....

Again, there is a huge market for highend/mid level home theatre systems, huge market for high end whiskies/wines, for watches (you will be shocked to know the number of buyers for Rs. 10 lakh + watches), cars etc but no market for good audio equipment even though everyone knows we Indians are also very fond of music....

So when we have the money and passion for music, what could be hindering the sales of good audio equipment? As I stated earlier, IMHO it's the lack of involvement of the brands, dealers, distributors and lack of awareness amongst the consumers which is again the fault of the former....

There is a demand for cars, watches, wines, whiskies because the consumer is aware of high end products and is able to see and feel those products...I recently went to DLF Promenade Mall in Vasant Kunj, Delhi and there was an importer of cheese who was getting consumers to sample different varieties of cheese irrespective of whether they looked like expensive cheese eaters or not....That my friend is bringing awareness in the market whether or not the importer is successful or not.....

Nothing like this in audio where most of the chaps are snobs unwilling to even offer a demo....As we all know most of the high audio products in India cannot be auditioned since those guys do not carry stock....

So my point is that most people in the audio business in India are not doing enough for their business but they keep wailing over lack of sales and how customers buy abroad and not from them....
 
^^^ You are on target ... As I said before, many consider hifi audio as a luxury one and if this mindset needs to be changed, the brands need to promote their products ver well.

You said well when this conservative mindset has been already changed for other items like car, TV, etc., and that wouldn't have happened without the active promotion of those brands .. I think time will come for that change to happen ..
 
Nothing like this in audio where most of the chaps are snobs unwilling to even offer a demo....

Next time try dressing up like a Bappi Lahiri while visiting them, a couple gold chains hanging down your neck. My guarantee it will make a difference :lol:

Joking, I know what you are talking about.
 
Maybe the Indians who can afford it do not know about the availability of good products in the market...... The sales figure of Bose will tell us how many people could have been prospective customers for mid/high end audio products.....

Also we are all generally born with a love for music but the love for whiskies, cigars, wines, cars, expensive suits, jewellery, high end TVs etc is created by marketing/advertising/peer pressure ... selling a good audio system should be much easier than selling expensive whiskies and wines atleast.....
 
I think they do have an advertising budget. At least at the manufacturer or distributor level. Magazines like AV Max, What HiFi have enough ads I believe.

If we are talking about Dealer level ads and dealer level efforts, it may not be feasible. If they promote the lines they carry by advertising that will add to their operating cost even further. So the prices they are offering, they may not be able to offer (or else it will cut into their profit).

There also might be a feeling among distributor/dealers that if they enter mainstream advertising channels, they will run out of their annual budget in a month. Mainstream advertising is not really feasible for small volume sales. Tobago products are not really comparable to HiFi. Half the India smokes/chews tobago. Tobago companies have huge marketing budget. Not so with HiFi companies. They have low sales volume and hence rather smalish budget, and they would rather spend it on a more focused target set of customers (such as readers of Hifi magazines/banner ads in HiFi sites like HiFiVision). Btw, this is a major marketing principal and is even taught at Harvard.

So, if we take into account D/D's side, it's a catch 22 situation. No big marketing budget because not enough sales volume. Sales not rising because not enough awareness creation.
 
Next time try dressing up like a Bappi Lahiri while visiting them, a couple gold chains hanging down your neck. My guarantee it will make a difference :lol:

Joking, I know what you are talking about.

When I bought my ex-demo, half-price Cyrus amp at a London dealer, I commented that this was a pretty small sale for them. The sales guy dismissed this idea immediately, saying, "Every sale matters to us." That's the sort of shop a buyer goes back to.
 
That's the attitude which every successful business should have and I am sure they do...

Ranjeet, I also import very attractive, innovative advertising posters which are quite expensive vis a vis the traditional LED products...but I also have to market, advertise and brand myself and make the corporates aware that such a product exists as and when they have budgets. My manufacturer in China does nothing and takes every penny in advance from me....

So the onus lies on me and other thousands or lakhs of small business owners to educate the potential customers and spread awareness of the advantages...I go to all my clients offices and nobody ever comes and visits me in my office....My clients can also order from the thousands of vendors in India or directly from China but they give me work because of better pricing (lower margins) and quality....

I see no reason why hifi dealers/brands/distributors should have it any easy than myself and the lakhs of other small businessmen...


When I bought my ex-demo, half-price Cyrus amp at a London dealer, I commented that this was a pretty small sale for them. The sales guy dismissed this idea immediately, saying, "Every sale matters to us." That's the sort of shop a buyer goes back to.
 
Rahul, I hope I am not sounding like I am defending the dealers, because I am not. I wouldn't have needed to create a group buy thread if everything was well with the dealers here :)

It's true, dealers can do a lot more. They can be a lot more creative. Some are doing so. It's a small world. I am sure you know about them too. Some are relying on word-of-mouth publicity. But others are still in dropshipping mode, or happy serving to, as someone rightly said earlier on this forum, the P3 people.

I am sure many dealers would be reading this thread. Hope some of them can take cues from here, for the betterment of the industry.
 
Music is a hobby. It needs to be sold by people who appreciate music. In India unfortunately very few dealers are into music. Most are just traders. In the west most hifi dealers i have been to are very passionate about music. In the west you have so many specialised shops. Be it golf, outdoor adventure or art, you will find these shops are manned by people who are completely into it. Thats what i think makes a huge difference. Recently I was in the US and wanted to gift my brother in law an all terrain bicycle. I just went to a specialised shop. Told them about my requirements and they took great pains in explaining what each cycle in their shop stood for. That according to me is what makes the difference. Its the hi fi dealers who need to educate their buyers as to what good sound is. If the dealers themselves have no knowledge, as is the case in India, there is nothing much that can happen
 
Ranjeet, we are simply having a discussion...please do not worry what anyone is thinking and keep writing whatever you think is right....

I was only writing to say that there is no need to feel sorry for the dealers as they are faced with the same problems that everybody else faces.....
 
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