AV receiver and integrated amp comparison

[rohitmusic]

AVR will be equaly good for audio as integrated good amps?

Just wanted to share my experience.
I was in same dilemma some time back.
I went to a demo shop heard an AVR and an integrated *OF SIMILAR PRICE* IMHO my personal opinion is that *THAT particular* integrated sounded WAY MUCH MUCH better than the AVR. The AVR simply sounded lifeless compared to the integrated and the dynamic sound of the integrated simply removed all my doubts and now I am happily on the integrated path.

Having said that there are some AVRs (read expensive) that *may* compare to a good integrated (much lower priced) but I am yet to hear one personally so cant comment.

After all this exercise it was very obvious to me There has to be some reasons for sterio amplifiers to exist! They were born for a reason.

My 2 cents..

 

[renjith lal]

Hi Naveen,

So for perceived loudness to be double we need 10 times the amplification power and for 3dB we need 2 times amplification power but 3dB increase is not perceived as twice loud to human ear?

I have also read that 3dB increase need twice the power but you said it is not perceived as twice loud to human ear. Can you please give me some more clarity on this.

Thanks in advance.
Renjith

An amp with a 90db S/N ration does not nesscarily sound better than one with a 100db S/N ratio. Similarly most amps have distortion fgured less than 0.01% I dont think we can tell a difference at this level.

While you are right that for perceived loudness to double we need 10x the amplifier power I just made a very general statement when I said "All things remaining equal - price, weight, power etc". Note the "etc" at the end of that statement. Wht I meant was that a $2500 integrated amplifier like a Krell 400xi or Creek Destiny or even something as available as the Maratnz PM15S2 or Denon PMA-100 should sound better than a $2500 AVR like the Arcam AVR 400 or NAD 777.



Not nesscarily.



Manoj 68db does sound twice as loud as 65db - not to the human ear. 3db difference in loudness is barely perceived as a louder sound. Yes it does require twice the power but it is not perceived as twice as loud by the human ear.

Yes the best way to know which amp sounds better is by listening to it. The questioner however, I assumed, wanted a generic answer.

 

[doors666]

in tests, most people perceived 6db increase as doubling of volume.

 

[BLASTO]

Hey guys,
I would advice to keep the 'loudness' factor out of this wonderful discussions.


Any XYZ stereo or integrated amps will give you the loudness a much as you can bear or as much as your neighbour will allow you..

So quantity is immaterial here. All that matters is quality.

And believe me, It is much more hard to get the dynamics right at 'low' volumes rather than higher volumes. So you should be looking for a systems which sounds in all its glory in low volumes.

There is another thread on that topic. Please refer that too.

 

[Sunderpalanivel]

I understand, an Integrated stereo AMP costing same money as an ARV would sound much better. However, would adding a stereo power AMP to the AVR equate to Stereo Integrated AMP in terms of quality ?

 

[BLASTO]

I understand, an Integrated stereo AMP costing same money as an ARV would sound much better. However, would adding a stereo power AMP to the AVR equate to Stereo Integrated AMP in terms of quality ?

No.

In my experiments so far, mixing and matching pre and power of different companies only makes things worse. There could be exceptions but generally until you get a thorough home demo, you would not want to go in that route.

 

[Viki]

I dont know much about dB's and damping factors. However, I can share my experience: I tried every type of AVR, incl the Pre/Pro combo I still use, to get the sound I wanted - Nada. On the other hand, my 10 year old second hand integrated amp brought me there the first time I played it, and it cost less than the PrePro (although second hand).

QED.

 

[kumarab]

No comments on the AVR vs Int amp issue..touchy topic.

On the volume doubling/SPL issue..there's a lot of confusion. Here is how it goes:

1) A 3dB increase demands double power from the amp
2) For a doubling of SPL, you need close to 10dB gain. That is somewhere between 8-9 times amp power.

 

[navin advani]

in tests, most people perceived 6db increase as doubling of volume.

I have also read that 3dB increase need twice the power but you said it is not perceived as twice loud to human ear. Can you please give me some more clarity on this.

My knowledge is kinda dated (just like me) maybe these links will explain it better.
Subjective Effect of Change in Sound Pressure Level

scroll down to the part that is labelled "The Psychoacoustic Loudness" on this link Table chart sound pressure levels SPL level sound pressure and sound intensity ratio calculation comparison loudness decibel dB scale ratio factor unit examples - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

or the part labelled "Sound level change and loudness ratio" here Loudness volume sound level change factor of perceived loudness formula calculate power level noise levels volume logarithm dependence three four fold loudness sound - by what factor does level decrease dependence comparison decibel levels 3 dBSPL 6

However, would adding a stereo power AMP to the AVR equate to Stereo Integrated AMP in terms of quality ?

Much of the processing would be done by the AVR but given that the AVR's power supply would be relieved of the POWER burden there would be significant difference in the bass end (better damping, definition etc..).

 

[Ajay Kamath]

I didn't understand this debate very well.

In my opinion :

Stereo Music Listening - Stereo Amplifier
Movies, Surround Sound, Gaming, Video Switching, Audio & Video Processing - AV Receiver

 

[nandac]

I understand, an Integrated stereo AMP costing same money as an ARV would sound much better. However, would adding a stereo power AMP to the AVR equate to Stereo Integrated AMP in terms of quality ?

not necessarily. it is as much about market dynamics as well - the cost segment, cost of similar rival products etc.

 

[thisisvv]

No.

In my experiments so far, mixing and matching pre and power of different companies only makes things worse. There could be exceptions but generally until you get a thorough home demo, you would not want to go in that route.

In my experience... you want to keep your Pre and Pro of same company...

V

 

[navin advani]

I didn't understand this debate very well.

Most people here dont have room for 2 systems. So expect one do both jobs.

 

[navin advani]

I know that AVR has to do lot of otehr functions so expensive AVR will be equaly good for audio as integrated good amps?

Stereo Music Listening - Stereo Amplifier
Movies, Surround Sound, Gaming, Video Switching, Audio & Video Processing - AV Receiver

Ajaybhai, if you had room for only one set of speakers but liked music as much as movies what would be your solution?

BTW a similar discussion is gong on here
http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/26634-nad-vs-yamaha-vs-harman-kardon-vs-2.html

 

[forever.pramod]

AV Receivers generally use ICs whereas Int.Amps use transistors. This makes the difference . Signal transmission will be pure and undistorted because of usage of transistors in integrates.

Thanks for the info. From childhood, I used to hear that Transistor amplifiers gives better quality than that uses ICs, Those days, I was using cassette decks

 

[asliarun]

Ajaybhai, if you had room for only one set of speakers but liked music as much as movies what would be your solution?

BTW a similar discussion is gong on here
http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/26634-nad-vs-yamaha-vs-harman-kardon-vs-2.html

In my case, I was noticing that my wife was not using the stereo setup simply because too many buttons had to be pressed (the DAC had to be switched on, the power amp, etc.). Thus, even though I only had two TL type floorstanders (Carnegie Acoustics CST1), I wanted the convenience and HDMI/TV integration of an AVR, but wanted the grunt and power amp section of a stereo amp.

With my budget constraints (and the fact that I have placement constraints and a kid anyway), I ended up with a Marantz slimline AVR that I am using as a preamp (it has preouts), and a slightly modded Dayens Ecstasy 2B stereo amp that I am using as a power amp. The Dayens is a very interesting amp. Minimalistic, no-nonsense, affordable, but also built with fairly high quality internal components (all Mundorf caps, Alps Blue pot, etc.).

This is only an entry level setup, but I do like the pairing enough to listen to music and movies/TV. Yes, I do feel the sound quality can be further improved but I am also happy enough with the sound.

Navin, in your other thread, you never got around to posting your impressions about your setup. With two Yamaha AS-2000 and the rest of your components, you must have one beast of a setup! Please do share details and pictures!

On a side note, I am following a very interesting thread on another forum about using Crown XLS as a power amp. This really is a beast of an amp, especially for its size, and even more especially, for the ridiculously low price. I used to feel very negative about Class D and PWM amps, but with more and more positive reviews about high end Class D like Hypex nCore (and uCD), and now Crown XLS, this looks like a very interesting alternative. And because of their design, their extremely high power levels and ability to drive low impedance speakers is really attractive.

 

[jagdish_p]

In my case, I was noticing that my wife was not using the stereo setup simply because too many buttons had to be pressed (the DAC had to be switched on, the power amp, etc.). Thus, even though I only had two TL type floorstanders (Carnegie Acoustics CST1), I wanted the convenience and HDMI/TV integration of an AVR, but wanted the grunt and power amp section of a stereo amp.

How about using a Logitech universal remote where you can programme the remote based on the task to switch on the relevant components only and also select and adjust volume.

PS: I did this but my wife still refuses to use this

 

[manniraj]

How about using a Logitech universal remote where you can programme the remote based on the task to switch on the relevant components only and also select and adjust volume.

PS: I did this but my wife still refuses to use this

I also did the settings on a logitech remote and she uses it only for TV/Dish/Bluray but for the music anyway the remote does not work as my music-pc/DAC/B1/ACA does not have remotes

 

[asliarun]

Yeah.. Same here. My Audio GD DAC didn't have a remote. Plus, I had this complicated HDMI switch setup, and ythen I realized that an avr frontend is also an HDMI switch along with being a (slightly sub par) preamp and optionally, a DAC.

Personally, I still feel that a DAC added to thee mix would do wonders. Have been exploring some NOS DACs but this is a very tricky subject at the sub $1k budget level.