Can AVR solve PAL->NTSC issue?

[ashwinurao]

Hi,

Sorry if this issue has been beaten to death here, but I have one basic question. I did read the numerous threads on PAL, NTSC and have understood quite a lot.

I got Sony Bravia EX700 TV from US which has only NTSC tuner.

Right now I am using an external TV tuner and feeding it composite in from tata sky and taking VGA output to my TV which has VGA input. Ideally I should use a PAL->NTSC convertor like this one - PAL to NTSC Video Converter | PAL to NTSC Video Conversion | Pal Video converter | pal to ntsc TV converter | convert ntsc to pal | convert pal to ntsc | Pal TV converter .

Now I am planning to get a HTiB and was wondering :

At the SD level PAL is 50Hz and NTSC is 60Hz. So in US the TV signals are 480/60i and here it is 576/50i. So we need these convertors to convert these signals to the proper refresh rate and resolution.

Now if I connect my TataSky composite output signal which is 576/50i to any AVR with video upscaling feature it should ideally upscale this to 1080/60p. Now the output from AVR will go to my LED TV through HDMI. Since my TV supports 1080/60p it should ideally display this without any issues, right? So, does this mean that I dont need an intermediate PAL->NTSC convertor equipment(or the TV tuner)?

Thanks.

 

[venkatcr]

An AVR's scaling is within the same video format - that is NTSC or PAL. It cannot convert from one format to another.

Most STBs can output either PAL or NTSC and this can be set. This may be your easiest option. Check the manual of the Tata Sky STB.

Cheers

 

[argho]

An AVR's scaling is within the same video format - that is NTSC or PAL. It cannot convert from one format to another.

Most STBs can output either PAL or NTSC and this can be set. This may be your easiest option. Check the manual of the Tata Sky STB.

Cheers

Can't be done on TataSky. While the STB box is capable, the TataSky menu hides the option. Not aware of anyone who has been able to crack this issue, despite several months of surfing to find a solution.

 

[ashwinurao]

An AVR's scaling is within the same video format - that is NTSC or PAL. It cannot convert from one format to another.

Most STBs can output either PAL or NTSC and this can be set. This may be your easiest option. Check the manual of the Tata Sky STB.

Cheers

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. I thought PAL/NTSC only matter when the signal format is SD and it doesn't come into picture for HD. If the AVR converts 576/50i to 1080/60p doesn't it mean that it should have taken care of the refresh rate adjustment? Or are you saying that the AVR will convert 576/50i -> 1080/50p (50p exists for 1080?) and 480/60i to 1080/60p ?

Thanks.

 

[venkatcr]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. I thought PAL/NTSC only matter when the signal format is SD and it doesn't come into picture for HD. If the AVR converts 576/50i to 1080/60p doesn't it mean that it should have taken care of the refresh rate adjustment? Or are you saying that the AVR will convert 576/50i -> 1080/50p (50p exists for 1080?) and 480/60i to 1080/60p ?

You are getting confused with many terminologies here. Let us go step by step.

At first, we have to understand whether the signal is analogue or digital. If it is analogue, NTSC and PAL come into effect. When you send an analogue signal from ANY source through composite or component, the signal has to follow either the NTSC or PAL video format. In both these formats, what is important is the number of scan lines as originally done on a CRT. Even in modern digital TVs, the same methodology is used for adherence to standards across all transmission, receivers, TVs, etc.

SD and HD are nothing but terms that refer to the resolution you can see in a digital TV. When you say 704x480, you are talking about 704 pixels for each of the 480 lines that are scanned by the TV. This is usually referred to as 480i for interlacing of signals using alternate scanned lines from the top of the screen to the bottom. Till now you are yet in the analogue domain.

When you remove the 'i' and replace it with the 'p' for progressive, you move into pure digital domain. Again, digital because CRT cannot accept or display progressively scanned images. Only digital TVs can do that.

An AVR, when you connect a source through an analogue input, will sense whether the signal is NTSC ot PAL. Irrespective of how you connect the AVR to the display including HDMI, it will maintain the same video format. When it scales, it just increases the number of pixels for each scan line.

Only when you input a pure digital signal to the AVR will it treat it as digital and the signal will be outside the realm of NTSC or PAL. As I said before, AVRs are video format neutral. They will simply accept any standard, and pass on the same standard to the display.

As on 31 December, 2009, the US has switched to digital transmission. So TVs sold after that may not be strictly NTSC.

Cheers

 

[sanjay0864]

Hi,

Sorry if this issue has been beaten to death here, but I have one basic question. I did read the numerous threads on PAL, NTSC and have understood quite a lot.

I got Sony Bravia EX700 TV from US which has only NTSC tuner.

Right now I am using an external TV tuner and feeding it composite in from tata sky and taking VGA output to my TV which has VGA input. Ideally I should use a PAL->NTSC convertor like this one - PAL to NTSC Video Converter | PAL to NTSC Video Conversion | Pal Video converter | pal to ntsc TV converter | convert ntsc to pal | convert pal to ntsc | Pal TV converter .

Now I am planning to get a HTiB and was wondering :

At the SD level PAL is 50Hz and NTSC is 60Hz. So in US the TV signals are 480/60i and here it is 576/50i. So we need these convertors to convert these signals to the proper refresh rate and resolution.

Now if I connect my TataSky composite output signal which is 576/50i to any AVR with video upscaling feature it should ideally upscale this to 1080/60p. Now the output from AVR will go to my LED TV through HDMI. Since my TV supports 1080/60p it should ideally display this without any issues, right? So, does this mean that I dont need an intermediate PAL->NTSC convertor equipment(or the TV tuner)?

Thanks.

Just connect your TataSky set-top box, via the composite connection directly to a composite video input on your TV and you should be ready to go.

 

[argho]

Just connect your TataSky set-top box, via the composite connection directly to a composite video input on your TV and you should be ready to go.

Does not work at all. I had a NTSC TV from US. Whether composite or component, the PAL signals from STBs in India do not work with US NTSC TVs.

 

[venkatcr]

Does not work at all. I had a NTSC TV from US. Whether composite or component, the PAL signals from STBs in India do not work with US NTSC TVs.

TVs made in the US have tuner ONLY for NTSC. TVs in Indian have tuners for both NTSC and PAL. US TVs will not work in India unless you insert a PAL to NTSC converter in between.

Cheers

 

[sanjay0864]

The tuner has NO role to play when using the composite input. Basically, what you should be stating is that you have a NTSC TV and not a TV with a NTSC tuner. Anyhow, once you upscale the signal, it no longer is NTSC or PAL and therefore you should have no issues, atleast that is what I think, once you upscale the signal via an A/V Reciever or any other way. This is keeping in mind that most HD TVs that I know of, are capable of displaying 1080/30p, 1080/50p, 1080/60p and in most cases, also 1080/24p.

 

[argho]

The tuner has NO role to play when using the composite input. Basically, what you should be stating is that you have a NTSC TV and not a TV with a NTSC tuner. Anyhow, once you upscale the signal, it no longer is NTSC or PAL and therefore you should have no issues, atleast that is what I think, once you upscale the signal via an A/V Reciever or any other way. This is keeping in mind that most HD TVs that I know of, are capable of displaying 1080/30p, 1080/50p, 1080/60p and in most cases, also 1080/24p.

Sanjay,
Are you speaking from experience ? Have you tried this ?

 

[ashwinurao]

Anyhow, once you upscale the signal, it no longer is NTSC or PAL and therefore you should have no issues, atleast that is what I think, once you upscale the signal via an A/V Reciever or any other way. This is keeping in mind that most HD TVs that I know of, are capable of displaying 1080/30p, 1080/50p, 1080/60p and in most cases, also 1080/24p.

Ah, this is not known. All I can see in the Bravia manual is this - HDMI: Video: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, 1080/24p.

So, I doubt if the TV supports 1080/50p and I guess this is what the AVR will transmit?

EDIT:
On the Sony USA website this is given :
Video Signal : 1080/60p (HDMI / COMPONENT), 1080/60i, 1080/24p (HDMI ONLY), 720/60p, 480/60p, 480/60i

But my question still stands : Since the AVR claims that it upscales to 1080/60p, does it only mean that if the input signal is 60Hz or is it irrespective of the input source frequency?

 

[venkatcr]

The tuner has NO role to play when using the composite input. Basically, what you should be stating is that you have a NTSC TV and not a TV with a NTSC tuner. Anyhow, once you upscale the signal, it no longer is NTSC or PAL and therefore you should have no issues, atleast that is what I think, once you upscale the signal via an A/V Reciever or any other way. This is keeping in mind that most HD TVs that I know of, are capable of displaying 1080/30p, 1080/50p, 1080/60p and in most cases, also 1080/24p.

I have clearly explained this. A composite input is an analogue input and will be sent through the tuner of the TV.

Cheers

 

[sanjay0864]

The tuner has NO role to play when using the composite input. Basically, what you should be stating is that you have a NTSC TV and not a TV with a NTSC tuner. Anyhow, once you upscale the signal, it no longer is NTSC or PAL and therefore you should have no issues, atleast that is what I think, once you upscale the signal via an A/V Reciever or any other way. This is keeping in mind that most HD TVs that I know of, are capable of displaying 1080/30p, 1080/50p, 1080/60p and in most cases, also 1080/24p.

Sanjay,
Are you speaking from experience ? Have you tried this ?

No, I don't speak from personal experience. But, my statement that "a tuner has NO role to play, when using the composite input" is technically correct. Thus it is possible to have a TV with a NTSC tuner but with a PAL/NTSC/SECAM modulator. An example of this would be the Pioneer plasma TVs sold in the US. Based on the fact that a direct composite connection from the TataSky set-top box does not work, it is a fair guess that you have a NTSC TV. Which means that it has a NTSC tuner and a NTSC only modulator. If your TV accepts 1080/60p signals and your AV reciever accepts a PAL modulated (composite) signal and scales it to 1080/60p, then technically I see no reason why your TV should not be able to display the picture. Again, this is based, not on personal experience, but only on technical reasoning.

Disclaimer: Although I am quite confident of the above statements, I cannot guarantee them.

 

[venkatcr]

A modulator is a RF modulator that converts a DVD composite or component signal into a signal that is identical to the signal that a TV receives through it's antenna. A TV tuner is the unit that receives the signal from an antenna, and decodes the audio and video signals. It is this unit that recognises the video format. The modulator's output is sent to the tuner for decoding.

Cheers

 

[sanjay0864]

I have clearly explained this. A composite input is an analogue input and will be sent through the tuner of the TV.

Cheers

Actually that is not entirely correct. A 'tuner' is only used for receiving and deciphering broadcast RF signals. The signal may be 'over the air' for broadcast tv, or carried via a cable for cable tv. Most people confuse a 'tuner' with a 'modulator'. All tuners have a built in modulator, but a modulator can be totally independent. It is the modulator which is either PAL, NTSC or SECAM. Thus, when you input a signal via the composite (modulated) input, the signal has to go through the modulator. In case the modulator is NTSC only, then it will be able to process NTSC signals only. The only difference between a Monitor and a TV, is that a TV has a built in tuner. But, both the Monitor and TV have a demodulator, which may or may not be limited to a single 'modulation standard', ie. PAL, NTSC or SECAM. Computer monitors with composite inputs generally have a muti system modulator. It is true though, that only an analog signal must go through the modulator. But the signal does not neccesarily have to go through the tuner.

Disclaimer: Although I am quite confident of my statements above. But, in case i am incorrect, please excuse me for the same.

 

[venkatcr]

I must add that after the tuner, there are two more de-modulators at work. One is the amplitude demodulator that converts the RF signal into a composite video that is further processed for display. A separate frequency de-modulator takes the audio signal for amplification.

As far as I know you cannot feed an analogue signal to the modulators after the tuner directly.

Cheers

 

[sanjay0864]

When you remove the 'i' and replace it with the 'p' for progressive, you move into pure digital domain. Again, digital because CRT cannot accept or display progressively scanned images. Only digital TVs can do that.

I hate to be the dissenting voice, but are you sure about this? I have had several CRT TVs, that have for over a decade now, displayed a 480p & 576p signal output from a DVD player. Looking at the specifications of a CRT, that I currently have and still use, it lists the following compatible signals, 480i/480p 60Hz, 576i/567p 50Hz, 1080i 60Hz.

 

[venkatcr]

I hate to be the dissenting voice, but are you sure about this? I have had several CRT TVs, that have for over a decade now, displayed a 480p & 576p signal output from a DVD player. Looking at the specifications of a CRT, that I currently have and still use, it lists the following compatible signals, 480i/480p 60Hz, 576i/567p 50Hz, 1080i 60Hz.

Both NTSC and PAL follow interlaced scanning. Actually the concept of interlaced scanning was invented to solve the limitation that TV cameras had in the old days coupled to limitation that TV transmitters had.

Unless your CRT is a HD ready CRT as specifically mentioned by the manufacturer and has component (YPbPr inputs), it can, most probably, only display interlaced images. This is irrespective of what is displayed as the resolution and scanning method on the top right.

When you are using a DVD player, you will be able to transmit a progressive scanned image only if you are using a component video connection labelled 'YPbPr', or DVI, or HDMI. If you are using composite, S-Video, or YCbCr connections, you will only receive interlaced signals.

The reason I mentioned that CRTs cannot display progressive signals is that HD ready CRTs are rare and are a dying breed.

Cheers

 

[sanjay0864]

That is true, progressive analog signals can only be carried via a Component connection.

 

[muralia]

Hi ,

I heard that Dish TV TruHD STB has a setting in which the HDMI output can be configured as 1080i/50Hz or 1080i/60Hz. If that is the case, I believe it should work with NTSC TV as well. NTSC TV supports 60Hz ( 30fps).

I also have NTSC TV and looking for such STB