Collective Hearing Impairment

[sachinchavan 15865]

Perhaps the most pertinent point. Distortion is the key word ie in a system with low/insignificant Distortion , you dont even realize the dB going loud but when it starts distorting your ability to stand that music drops drastically. I have this problem with Most PA systems !

@arj, it was precisely my point in discriminating between physical damage and mental discomfort. Let me put it as a pair of following questions:

a) Distorted sound, say at 70 dB - would it cause physical damage or just mental discomfort?

b) Clear, undistorted sound at 90 dB - would it cause not cause physical damage even though it would be comfortable to listen to?

I'm not sure how a mental/psychological irritation comes into view here. So, skipping that part.

@kratu, I hope the above clarifies what I meant.

 

[square_wave]

Which Instruments Put Your Hearing Most at Risk? | The Hearing & Balance Center | Blog

(843) 459-8965 | Working in construction or at a night club can put your ears at risk, but did you ever think about the dangerous environment for musicians?

hearingsc.com

Most musical instruments produce an average sound level at around 80 - 85 db and above unless someone is playing the instrument softly. Hearing loss among musicians is quite common because of their close proximity to instruments. So, for an audience sitting 20 feet away in a high quality unamplified concert ( with some judicious use of amplified sound for the electric guitar, vocals etc), it is normal to encounter an average loudness around 75 to 80 db with peaks of even more. If sound is not distorted, this should not cause any issue for the audience. Most people who listen to audiophile gear tend to mimic this volume level. This is quite normal and should not cause problems.

If you reduce this to 50 - 60 db, you will not hear what the original instrument sounds like. With a very revealing sound system, you can do intensive listening sessions though. You need a very good ( custom designed) system where you don't lose much detail at low volume levels. 1st order crossovers, single driver full range, high sensitivity etc..rule in this space.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

In a different thread, a gentleman claimed that he usually listens at 130dB and anything below 100dB is boring for him. (Not sure whether he was speaking about dBA or C). That was his comfort level. For a normal human being that is unthinkable.

My point is that we might feel "comfortable" at higher sound levels but that doesn't necessarily mean it is safe. Objectively speaking, from scientific data, the safe level is around 85dB. (Also factoring the duration and the amplitude of sound frequencies).

I agree that distortion can cause discomfort at even lower levels and a resolving system in a well-treated space can reduce that discomfort at even higher levels. I have been to Jazz concert with front seat and did have a good time. These days, I take precautions and have setup an alert that notifies me if the ambient noise hits 90dB.

Are you talking about me? If so let me correct you, I normally listen at about 110db, 130db for the loud sessions. It's been a while but I think it was dbc. Yes below 100db is boring. Have fun!

 

[kratu]

I'm also wondering if there is a connection between this topic and the Loudness War; the phenomenon of increased sound levels in music pushed by sound engineers to stand out. Could it have now spilled over to the listeners?

Yes and also less importance is given when it comes to health related to ears. I have been avoiding weddings,church, parties. Some cases we cant avoid and i use cotton to block my ears and spend just few minutes just for attendance sake. For now i only drop and pick up my wife and daugter from church. The services are way to loud even for people who don't have loud-noise damage.Frustrating to see ignorant adults,parents with their infants,kids in church exposing them to so much danger.Some even sit with their babies next to the big speakers.I always plan all my outings and being very cautious not to expose my ears to loud noise and have cotton balls stacked in my car,wallet. My ears have also become very sensitive. Must be mild hyperacusis. Anyways it was a huge wake up call for me to start protecting my ears and seems to be going good. Now in a much better place compared to when it all started.

That has been my observation as well. It is unfortunate that we live in an increasingly loud environments. Excessive sound can cause hearing damage and the sound pollution can also have a detrimental affect mental health. I wonder if there is a connection with the "Loudness War" in music and the increase in loudness levels.

That higher sensitivity to loud sounds could be of great help in preventing further damage. I personally keep a pair of 3M foam ear plugs handy. There is also a type of ear plug with a funnel like hollow filter to reduce the sound levels while still retaining clarity. It helps in certain situations and can be put on. You never know when there is an accidental explosion of sound. A trucker could blast his horn right next to you in a traffic signal.

 

[Hari Iyer]

I have seen a video from stereophile aurhor JA that the most deaf people in the world live in Mongolia. Reason cited was - the environment is having dangerously low ambient noise causing the hair follicle in the ear to die or less reactive. I am not sure how far this is TRUE- but if there is truth in this then someone who blast his stereo has something to cheer about.

@kratu as you expose to very low noise, am wondering if you suffer from any hearing loss.

 

[kratu]

@arj, it was precisely my point in discriminating between physical damage and mental discomfort. Let me put it as a pair of following questions:

a) Distorted sound, say at 70 dB - would it cause physical damage or just mental discomfort?

b) Clear, undistorted sound at 90 dB - would it cause not cause physical damage even though it would be comfortable to listen to?



@kratu, I hope the above clarifies what I meant.

I understand when it is phrased as "discomfort".

From scientific data and my own observation, here is the conclusion. Distorted sound at lower sound levels of 70dB would not cause physical hearing damage but could cause discomfort, especially to some looney audiophiles. Clear, undistorted sound at 90dB can and will cause hearing damage with prolonged listening, but no obvious discomfort, seemingly to normal unaware crowd.


Here is the content from Apple Watch Noise app.

OK: Long-term exposure to sounds below 80dB should not affect your hearing.
Loud: Repeated long-term exposure to sounds above 80dB can lead to permanent hearing damage.
85dB: Around 1.45 hours at this level can cause temporary hearing loss. Weekly limit at this level is 12 hours 30 minutes.
90dB: Around 30 mins at this level can cause temporary hearing loss.
95dB: Just 10 minutes a day at this level can cause temporary hearing loss.
100dB: Even a few minutes a day can cause temporary hearing loss.

 

[kratu]

I have seen a video from stereophile aurhor JA that the most deaf people in the world live in Mongolia. Reason cited was - the environment is having dangerously low ambient noise causing the hair follicle in the ear to die or less reactive. I am not sure how far this is TRUE- but if there is truth in this then someone who blast his stereo has something to cheer about.

@kratu as you expose to very low noise, am wondering if you suffer from any hearing loss.

I'm not sure about Mongolia and the impact of low ambient noise on hearing loss, but I have lived over two decades in two Indiancities that have high sound pollution. I listen to soft, meditative music at 40-45dB but also intense electronic music at 75dB. I personally don't find anything to cheer about someone who listens at 85dB or higher, especially for longer duration. Few minutes is okay.

 

[Love4sound]

I'm also wondering if there is a connection between this topic and the Loudness War; the phenomenon of increased sound levels in music pushed by sound engineers to stand out. Could it have now spilled over to the listeners?

Yeah could be.

That higher sensitivity to loud sounds could be of great help in preventing further damage. I personally keep a pair of 3M foam ear plugs handy. There is also a type of ear plug with a funnel like hollow filter to reduce the sound levels while still retaining clarity. It helps in certain situations and can be put on. You never know when there is an accidental explosion of sound. A trucker could blast his horn right next to you in a traffic signal.

Cotton works well for me and was advised by my ENT. As for a trucker blasting his horn well I never get down from my car in traffic and also only visit malls for any shopping. For now my lifestyle and habits are well planned to never expose to dangerous level of sound. But the funny part is I still continue this hobby which is the root cause and is the bigger threat for the ears. Well I almost reached a point of quitting and selling my gears when tinnitus was in its peak. Thankfully I habituated to the sound and it reduced to a level where I can concentrate on other sounds ignoring the Tinitus

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

From scientific data and my own observation…

Can you please quote the reference for scientific data on this?

I listen to soft, meditative music at 40-45dB

Do you listen on IEM or closed back headphones? I wonder how one can even focus on music played at 40-45 dB on speakers when ambient sound levels in cities is seldom below 50 dB (except in a voice-insulated room)! My apartment is in one of the quietest neighbourhoods in my city but still even at late night the lowest volume I play music at is in the 55-65 dB range to be decipherable.

Thankfully I habituated to the sound and it reduced to a level where I can concentrate on other sounds ignoring the Tinitus

That’s ‘love 4 sound’!

 

[jls001]

I'm not sure how a mental/psychological irritation comes into view here. So, skipping that part.

The one sound that irritates me a lot is distorted/clipped bass on PA speakers (mainly due to it being overdriven and/or bad woofer driver). Another irritation is the general tendency to play PA speakers really loud and disturb everything/everyone nearby.

 

[kratu]

Can you please quote the reference for scientific data on this?

There are number of resources online. Here are a few citations. The common thread is that 85dB is the threshold. There are variations on the exposure time that cause hearing damage.

What Noises Cause Hearing Loss? | NCEH | CDC

Noise is a significant source of hearing loss, but you can protect your hearing. An important first step is to understand how noise causes hearing loss.

www.cdc.gov

https://www.creighton.edu/fileadmin/user/AdminFinance/Facilities/EHS/docs/Training/Hearing_protection.pdf

Apple Hearing Study shares new insights on hearing health

Apple is sharing key insights from its Apple Hearing Study to encourage others to better understand and manage their hearing health.

www.apple.com

https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0026/72638/managing-noise-hearing-loss-at-work-cop-2021.pdf

https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2020-12/CEHH%20Issue%2020%20-%20Noise-induced%20hearing%20loss.pdf

Do you listen on IEM or closed back headphones? I wonder how one can even focus on music played at 40-45 dB on speakers when ambient sound levels in cities is seldom below 50 dB (except in a voice-insulated room)! My apartment is in one of the quietest neighbourhoods in my city but still even at late night the lowest volume I play music at is in the 55-65 dB range to be decipherable.

I was speaking about listening levels from my speakers. I don't know about measuring IEM or headphones. I'm located in a small town and the ambient sound levels are at 35dB during late evenings/night. The room is acoustically treated (but not isolated) to make it discernible in low volumes.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

I'm located in a small town and the ambient sound levels are at 35dB during late evenings/night

Most would feel a differential of 10 dB between the music and the ambient isn’t sufficient to hear nuances in the music. Also dependent on the gear - to make the musical details discernible at 10dB differential with the ambient a highly resolving gear would be essential, I imagine.

 

[square_wave]

Most would feel a differential of 10 dB between the music and the ambient isn’t sufficient to hear nuances in the music. Also dependent on the gear - to make the musical details discernible at 10dB differential with the ambient a highly resolving gear would be essential, I imagine.

The ambient noise levels in my home is about 27 db. In Bangalore it was about 45 to 55. This makes a huge difference!

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

The ambient noise levels in my home is about 27 db. In Bangalore it was about 45 to 55. This makes a huge difference!

And what dB levels do you play your music at? The OP has ambient noise level of 35 at his location and plays certain music at 45dB. Dynamic range of recorded music can be as high as 32 dB. Now, if your listening dB is 45, then some sounds on the music will play even at 30 dB, which is lower than the the ambient level of 35dB. Irrespective of what gear one uses, it will not be easy to discern those sounds (though one can hear them) over the ambient (even though it is quiet, relatively speaking). Unless one is listening passively in the background of course where one doesn’t need to discern.

Interestingly, EDM has the lowest dynamic range - just about 6 dB.

Source (and also an interesting read on the subject of DNR, loudness and noise):

What Is Dynamic Range, and Why Does it Matter? - Yamaha Music - Blog

In this article, we explore the concept of dynamic range and explain why it is so important to the enjoyment of listening to recorded music.

hub.yamaha.com

 

[square_wave]

And what dB levels do you play your music at? The OP has ambient noise level of 35 at his location and plays certain music at 45dB. Dynamic range of recorded music can be as high as 32 dB. Now, if your listening dB is 45, then some sounds on the music will play even at 30 dB, which is lower than the the ambient level of 35dB. Irrespective of what gear one uses, it will not be easy to discern those sounds (though one can hear them) over the ambient (even though it is quiet, relatively speaking). Unless one is listening passively in the background of course where one doesn’t need to discern.

Interestingly, EDM has the lowest dynamic range - just about 6 dB.

Source (and also an interesting read on the subject of DNR, loudness and noise):

What Is Dynamic Range, and Why Does it Matter? - Yamaha Music - Blog

In this article, we explore the concept of dynamic range and explain why it is so important to the enjoyment of listening to recorded music.

hub.yamaha.com

I play at an average 65 to 72 db. Peaks can higher. This is my optimum level where I feel acoustic instruments and vocals sound like the real thing. If I go higher, it feels like the instruments ( acoustic ones) are amplified which sounds a bit artificial. In a really well treated room, if you play higher you don't really experience that problem although it is louder than life size instruments. It is more entertaining. I don't like playing at average levels of above 80db though unless it for a short bit of time to get a kick out of something.

The problem with listening at lower levels ( below 60db) is that the instruments starts sounding smaller than the real thing with lower than life dynamics. A tabla will sound like a smaller tabla. Trumpets will sound muffled and smaller than the real thing.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I sit outside the church as an outcast, the sound levels are unbearable.

At the Gym, I get dance music at shrieking proportions. I keep turning it low much to the chagrin of the trainer. Weddings, Parties; any outdoor venues are hyper loud.

At few audiophiles' residences, I request the sound to be reduced. Their sound levels start to cause some discomfort. One of them prefers playing loud, loud and louder; he admitted that he has minor hearing loss and tinnitus in the left ear.

Am I an oddball or have I become sensitive in the ears? Or is it that humans as species have evolved to be more tolerant?

My Apple Watch taps at my wrist to give me a sane advice. It notifies that I’m in a loud environment (touching 90-95dB). 10 minutes of that exposure would cause temporary hearing loss., a major pathway to permanent hearing impariment. I’ve got it covered with a nice pair of 3M ear plugs. This has become an essential accessory.

My listening levels are around 50-60dB usually, and sometimes 70-75dB; nothing more.

Why do I bring this? When I see people sitting calmly next to blaring sound boxes, I wonder if there is a collective human impairment. I hope to get some thoughts around this. As audiophiles, ears are one of our most important senses.

“Millions of teenagers and young people are at risk of hearing loss due to the unsafe use of personal audio devices and exposure to damaging sound levels at venues such as nightclubs, bars, concerts and sporting events,” said Dr Bente Mikkelsen, WHO Director for the Department for Noncommunicable Diseases.
https://www.who.int/news/item/02-03...ndard-to-tackle-rising-threat-of-hearing-loss

We have a severe hearing loss which runs in my maternal family. I listen at insane levels, mostly 85 db+. But it is distortion that registers as being loud to the human brain. With absolutely no distortion in my system, even at very high levels, there is absolutely no warning how loud it is, until my wife comes banging on the door

 

[Love4sound]

With absolutely no distortion in my system, even at very high levels, there is absolutely no warning how loud it is,

Hahah exactly in my case as well and only when I had Tinitus i realised I am listening at very high levels.

 

[square_wave]

Extended listening above (average) 80db is asking for trouble in the long run.

 

[Analogous]

@arj, it was precisely my point in discriminating between physical damage and mental discomfort. Let me put it as a pair of following questions:

a) Distorted sound, say at 70 dB - would it cause physical damage or just mental discomfort?

b) Clear, undistorted sound at 90 dB - would it cause not cause physical damage even though it would be comfortable to listen to?



@kratu, I hope the above clarifies what I meant.

When the noise (music?) pauses or s

@arj, it was precisely my point in discriminating between physical damage and mental discomfort. Let me put it as a pair of following questions:

a) Distorted sound, say at 70 dB - would it cause physical damage or just mental discomfort?

b) Clear, undistorted sound at 90 dB - would it cause not cause physical damage even though it would be comfortable to listen to?



@kratu, I hope the above clarifies what I meant.

When the noise (music?) pauses or stops and we experience a sense of …. relief, and dread that it will start again ? That is a good indicatior I think.

 

[kratu]

We have a severe hearing loss which runs in my maternal family. I listen at insane levels, mostly 85 db+. But it is distortion that registers as being loud to the human brain. With absolutely no distortion in my system, even at very high levels, there is absolutely no warning how loud it is, until my wife comes banging on the door

Unfortunately, that's true. We don't realise this until it is too late. Without distortion, a normal individual could go above and beyond safe level. Devices like Apple Watch would be of great help in warning us.

It needs to be noted that at an ear level, it is registered as sound pressure. That's what it is, distortion or otherwise it affects the same. We quantify this sound pressure as decibels. A tight slap on the ear causes severe damage; that is highest possible decibel wave coming direct and without distortion.