Dali Ikon vs Ikon mk2

Bass is enhanced when speakers are close to walls.
Dali Ikon 6 is about 14" deep and about 8" wide.

Assume you can place the speakers along the short wall of the room.
You will have to leave a minimum of about 12" from the side and back walls.
The further away you can get from the walls more natural will be the base.
Higher frequencies can be tackled by sofa or curtains.

If you are placing along the long wall of the room, consider BS speakers.

Whether you need an active room correction element in the chain is up to you.
A poor man's room correction is tone + volume control.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
If you are placing along the long wall of the room, consider BS speakers.

I have f/s on the long wall, I'd like to know how/ why I would benefit from moving walls or changing speakers.

A little explanation will aid understanding.

Thanks

ciao
gr
 
Last edited:
Bass reflex speakers (back ported) need to be away from rear wall to minimize boom.

In a 11 x 14 room, placing speakers along the long wall makes the seating position very close to the speakers. Dali recommends min 8" from rear wall for FS and 2" for BS.

Assume that the front of the speakers are at 2' from the wall and seating position (ears) is about 2' from opposite wall. this leaves about 5' of space between speaker plane and listening plane; leaving little or no wiggle room for any placement adjustment. Even at moderate power input to speakers, the sound pressure levels can cause listening fatigue.

From Dali specs, Ikon 6 is at 89dB SPL and Ikon 2 is at 86db SPL. A 3dB difference in sensitivity can cause listening fatigue very soon. In addition, BS speakers are lighter and can be moved more easily.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Bass reflex speakers (back ported) need to be away from rear wall to minimize boom.

In a 11 x 14 room, placing speakers along the long wall makes the seating position very close to the speakers. Dali recommends min 8" from rear wall for FS and 2" for BS.

Assume that the front of the speakers are at 2' from the wall and seating position (ears) is about 2' from opposite wall. this leaves about 5' of space between speaker plane and listening plane; leaving little or no wiggle room for any placement adjustment. Even at moderate power input to speakers, the sound pressure levels can cause listening fatigue.

From Dali specs, Ikon 6 is at 89dB SPL and Ikon 2 is at 86db SPL. A 3dB difference in sensitivity can cause listening fatigue very soon. In addition, BS speakers are lighter and can be moved more easily.

Cheers,
Raghu

It has nothing to do with back or front ported. Bass is unidirectional, higher frequencies are more laser like. (and therefore your brain uses different tricks to locate these sounds - amplitude and phase respectively)

Okay we assume we have the entire room or audio, that's okay.

Now you want yous speakers not more than 5 feet apart. Hmm.

What about strong and early reflections., including from the back wall ?

To me it won't work. But maybe will try and report. My early arrangements (details and figures on hfv) were on the short wall. It did not work out.

I don't understand how that loudspeaker spec causes fatigue. Could you please explain.

In a small tight (and typically multiuse) space, I am beginning to think it is more or less comprehensively game over (for hifi audio) and that headphones are the way to go in that use case.

ciao
gr
 
@sound_cycle

Frequencies below 150-250 Hz are omni-directional (if that's the right word). It is difficult for the human brain to place where it is coming from. This has nothing to do with boom. Boom is related to the speaker's LF response. If the roll off is at lower frequency say below 60-70 Hz place them away from walls as walls reinforce base. If the roll off is at higher frequency, the wall aids in base.

I never said that speakers should be placed not more than 5ft apart. In a 11x14 room, placement along the long wall makes the distance between speaker plane and listening plane about 5-6 ft if one follows manufacturer's recommendation. Reflections are more of an issue in India than in western countries; why? They build with wood, gypsum plaster and rough finish; we build with brick, cement plaster and smooth finish.

About listening fatigue; Dali recommends starting range of power to Ikon 6 as 25W and Ikon 2 as 30W. Let's assume that Dali put these numbers in because they feel this is when their products comes alive. Starting at 16W Ikon 6 is capable of producing ~100dB and Ikon 2 about ~97dB. This is at 1m. Lop off 10dB at listening plane (at 2-3 m). It is still at 87-90dB SPL. Ideal listening range is 75-85dB SPL. Louder than normal conversation; quieter than power tools.

I don't feel it is game over in tight spaces; yes there are compromises and limitations but that should not stop one from pursuing the dream of a good music setup.
Some of the compromises are BS vs FS which may bring down the choice of brands that sound good to your ears. Limitations are on wiggle room for placement and the volume level one can play the music at.

We just have to find a way to make it work in our individual situation knowing that it will never be the prefect solution. As I said earlier, tone/volume control is always at our reach without any extra cost. Passive room correction (curtains, deflectors) at some extra cost; active room correction (like the one you have) at some extra cost; they can and will help to a large extant.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Last edited:
my comments inline in BLUE

@sound_cycle

Frequencies below 150-250 Hz are omni-directional (if that's the right word). It is difficult for the human brain to place where it is coming from. This has nothing to do with boom.

Yes of course, where is the confusion in that, see this post for details. It is not restricted to 150 hz by the way

Boom is related to the speaker's LF response. If the roll off is at lower frequency say below 60-70 Hz place them away from walls as walls reinforce base. If the roll off is at higher frequency, the wall aids in base.

Absolutely Wrong.

Has nothing to do with your speakers and everything to do with the dimensions of your room. Look here for better understanding


I never said that speakers should be placed not more than 5ft apart. In a 11x14 room, placement along the long wall makes the distance between speaker plane and listening plane about 5-6 ft if one follows manufacturer's recommendation.

You did specifically say that "this leaves about 5' of space between speaker plane and listening plane". Now for an equilateral triangle arrangement (a very good starting point by the way) if you are listening from five feet away, you can have only five feet between your speakers, or thereabouts. Also curious where is that manufacturer's recommendation that says 5 feet separation is "good"

Reflections are more of an issue in India than in western countries; why? They build with wood, gypsum plaster and rough finish; we build with brick, cement plaster and smooth finish.

and don't forget to mention the flooring and missing carpeting

About listening fatigue; Dali recommends starting range of power to Ikon 6 as 25W and Ikon 2 as 30W. Let's assume that Dali put these numbers in because they feel this is when their products comes alive. Starting at 16W Ikon 6 is capable of producing ~100dB and Ikon 2 about ~97dB. This is at 1m. Lop off 10dB at listening plane (at 2-3 m). It is still at 87-90dB SPL. Ideal listening range is 75-85dB SPL. Louder than normal conversation; quieter than power tools.

Your point being ?

I don't feel it is game over in tight spaces; yes there are compromises and limitations but that should not stop one from pursuing the dream of a good music setup.

A small nearly cuboid room (like the dimensions we have been talking of 11x14) is too big a challenge, it will take considerable understanding, effort, trickery, measurement and expense to meet that challenge.

The proportion of budget apportioned to defeating the room is going to be quite high, and if not done, the spend on equipment was just CC swiping joy, with nothing else being realized. Period.

All that applies if the goal is neutral sound with good stereo, a/k/a HiFi listening.

(I can see the headphone wallahs smile, nod knowingly, and enjoy their music)


Some of the compromises are BS vs FS which may bring down the choice of brands that sound good to your ears. Limitations are on wiggle room for placement and the volume level one can play the music at.

Bookshelfs are NOT a compromise solution, nor are floor standers somehow "better". In many cases you are only paying for the cabinetry, or so I have read. See this thread (there is tons of useful gyaan on hfv, I have to say it again)

I am interested in b/s for better imaging. This was clearly recommended to me when I asked on hfv, and that is what I went to Chennai to audition.

That clever plan somehow went wrong when I heard the Zensor 5s :p. sok np, the chase starts again

Oh, let me hasten to add, all this staging and imagery stuff is not a magical property of a speaker (alone).


We just have to find a way to make it work in our individual situation knowing that it will never be the prefect solution. As I said earlier, tone/volume control is always at our reach without any extra cost.

You mean to imply that the tone control will do anything about combating your <non-ideal> room. I respectfully but strongly disagree. That is a teaspoon of water to a raging fire, and if at that

Passive room correction (curtains, deflectors) at some extra cost; active room correction (like the one you have) at some extra cost; they can and will help to a large extant.

You are correct, one should use all of these tricks and tools to get (closer) to the goal - "decent" imaging, and uncolored sound being mine.
 
Last edited:
@sound_cycle

You seemed to have figured out everything. Let's leave it at that.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
@sound_cycle

You seemed to have figured out everything. Let's leave it at that.

Cheers,
Raghu

Huh ! What do you mean by that ?

Are you calling me out on any factual inaccuracy, then I am glad to be corrected.

If you are offended by factual statements, well my apologies, but audio is a unforgiving <*ch>

And JIC you misconstrued something I have not made any claim "to have it all figured out" and have no shame in stating clearly for the record that I am *very* far away from that, not that it is/ was a goal. The goal is to learn. I have found a lot of useful stuff on hfv.

ciao
gr
 
Last edited:
MODERATORS NOTE:

Kindly stick to original poster's discussion of Dali speakers comparison.
Thanks,
Sid
 
@sidvee

Point noted. Let's not hijack the OP's thread and purpose.
Sorry for the unnecessary digression.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
MkII have a more flat frequency responce. Originals are more pleasing to ears. They come across as more musical.

Sorry if it's OT but I don't understand this too big argument. IKON 6 works well in a room as small as 10x12. No boom, no overhang. All that with basic room treatment worth less than rs. 5000.

DALI IKON design has two things going for them. They are front ported. That makes them placement friendly. They work well even 15-18 inch away from front wall. No Boom/overhang. The ribbon/silk dome hybrid tweeter is a wide dispersion module. Unlike conventional speakers they are not required to be toed in. As a result apparent soundstage width is wider compared to most other conventional speakers for the same space available.

In a typical Indian bedroom sized room better placement is on the long wall. Images lock much more easily and instrument placement is beautiful. On the short wall they need basic room treatment.

For HT setups, they should be placed on the short wall. They provide a grand theatrical experience if placed 10' apart with 12-15 feet listening distance with a sub placed behind the listening position.
 
Good analysis Ranjeet.

The point I was trying to make was that wiggle room may be limited in a small space.
If one likes the sound of a particular speaker, they will almost always find a way to make it work in the space available (large or small).

But then the discussion digressed and I am partly to blame for it.
Hope Swaroop is able to acquire one of the Dali lines or any other good pair and make it work in his listening space.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Hi All,

Thanks for all the suggestions and info on comparison between these speakers. I almost made up my mind on mk2 but the deal was not concluded as the seller went out of station for few days. But this is where a twist came up. I found a good deal on a pair of vintage speakers which i did not expect to find.

So now there is a chance i may discard the HT setup and go stereo with the said speakers. Nothing finalised yet as discussion is still going on. I shall keep you all posted on what the outcome is and maybe share my experience if I happen to get the said speakers. :)

Thanks
Satya
 
will you drive them with the AP amp ?

what about the AP floorstanders then ?

This set-up is for new house recently bought in my hometown.

The AP set-up is in chennai where I work. It would be untouched :) In fact I will add a dac to complete the chain (hopefully soon).
 
Hi All,

My deal got sidetracked when i came across sale of Klipshorn for just 1lakh. It got dragged for few weeks but another buyer was very interested and it ended up slightly like an auction and price rose by 50%. So i could not get them and now back to square one.

I went through the used speakers that would suit my purpose and ended up with about 10 things in my list! Very confused right now. And only one way to address that, starting to audition as many of them as I can and decide.

After Klipshorn, I felt a bit disheartened for couple of days to proceed with any other speaker!

Thanks
Satya
 
Ah the prey is still eluding the predator.
Sathya, what is your current budget? BS/FS? Any preferred brands?

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Purchase the Audiolab 6000A Integrated Amplifier at a special offer price.
Back
Top