DIY Room Accoustics for Home-Theatre

Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

in a rectangular or square room, the center of the room is the worst position for a subwoofer. For most rectangular rooms, the subwoofer should be located at least 25 percent away from the corner walls to best avoid stimulating any of its first three harmonics.
In a rectangular or square room, placing a subwoofer at the centre of the room will avoid stimulating the first length harmonic AND avoid stimulating the first width harmonic, both at the same time. Why are you telling people it is the "worst position for a subwoofer" when it prevent the two largest nulls from occurring in a room?
 
In a rectangular or square room, placing a subwoofer at the centre of the room will avoid stimulating the first length harmonic AND avoid stimulating the first width harmonic, both at the same time. Why are you telling people it is the "worst position for a subwoofer" when it prevent the two largest nulls from occurring in a room?

I will provide a detailed tutorial today about the reason, so that everybody can understand the science behind it :)
 
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Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

Before reading this please ensure that you have enough caffeine (coffee) stocked near you...:) Never read it a fast pace..Re-read it to understand concepts...Take time to understand the science behind acoustics..It is not rocket science..Just basic physics at work..This article is extracted statements from articles after reading books and articles by acoustic experts...
source:
Article by Big Daddy from http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286
www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu
and other books by renowned acoustic experts...

I have simplified it further so that the concept can be understood by newbies like me..Happy reading...

Disclaimer:
I am not responsible or liable for causing headache, due to aching brain (information overload):)

What is sound:
Sound is a wave that travels through matter such as air, water, and steel. Sound does not travel in vacuum. A sound wave will spread out after it leaves its source, decreasing its amplitude or loudness. A single- frequency traveling wave will take the form of a sine wave.
sin.gif


The speed of sound in dry air is approximately 344 meters/second, 1127 feet/second. Sound travels faster in liquids and non-porous solids than it does in air, traveling about 4.4 times faster in water than in air. The speed of sound in air varies with the temperature and humidity such that sound travels slower on cold days, but is nearly independent of pressure.

Sound waves are an example of longitudinal motion. View air getting displaced:
LongitudinalWaves.gif


Formation of Standing Waves:
Sound reflects back and forth between two parallel surfaces. At certain frequencies the incident and the reflected sounds interfere to form standing waves in which those frequencies can be amplified. Hence a standing wave pattern is an interference phenomenon. It is formed as the result of the perfectly timed interference of two waves passing through the same medium. A standing wave pattern is not actually a wave; rather it is the pattern resulting from the presence of two waves of the same frequency with different directions of travel within the same medium.

Read further and you will understand it better :)

Let's start by putting just one sine-wave into the left-hand end of the string, and allowing it to travel towards the reflecting boundary.
[IMG2]http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/flash/string2.swf[/IMG2]
In the animation, there is a attempt to show that when the wave is reflected, there is a phase change - if the displacement of the string is in an 'upwards' direction for the wave travelling left-right, then the reflected wave will be displaced in a downwards direction. This means that sine waves are continuously travelling from left to right, changing phase by 180 degrees on reflection, and travelling back from right to left. The incident and reflected waves interfere with each other by superposition and the following pattern results:
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/flash/string3.swf (open flash animation in new tab in your browser)

The composite waveform is known as a standing wave. It differs from a travelling wave (transverse or longitudinal - in fact every type of wave we have considered so far has been 'travelling') since the pattern oscillates, but appears to be stationary - there is no apparent right-left or left-right movement of energy. Every standing wave has nodes (locations of minimum amplitude) and antinodes (locations of maximum amplitude).

Hey, what are these Nodes and Anti-nodes stuff ???
node.gif

One characteristic of every standing wave pattern is that there are points along the medium that appear to be standing still. These points, sometimes described as points of no displacement, are referred to as nodes.

There are other points along the medium that undergo vibrations between a large positive and large negative displacement. These are the points that undergo the maximum displacement during each vibrational cycle of the standing wave. In a sense, these points are the opposite of nodes, and so they are called antinodes.

A standing wave pattern always consists of an alternating pattern of nodes and antinodes.

The positioning of the nodes and antinodes in a standing wave pattern can be explained by focusing on the interference of the two waves. The nodes are produced at locations where destructive interference occurs. For instance, nodes form at locations where a crest of one wave meets a trough of a second wave; or a half-crest of one wave meets a half-trough of a second wave; or a quarter-crest of one wave meets a quarter-trough of a second wave; etc.

Antinodes, on the other hand, are produced at locations where constructive interference occurs. For instance, if a crest of one wave meets a crest of a second wave, a point of large positive displacement results. Similarly, if a trough of one wave meets a trough of a second wave, a point of large negative displacement results. Antinodes are always vibrating back and forth between these points of large positive and large negative displacement; this is because during a complete cycle of vibration, a crest will meet a crest; and then one-half cycle later, a trough will meet a trough. Because antinodes are vibrating back and forth between a large positive and large negative displacement, a diagram of a standing wave is sometimes depicted by drawing the shape of the medium at an instant in time and at an instant one-half vibrational cycle later.
u10l4c5.gif


HeY...I am confused ???? :sad:
Read further :)..and you will understand it better..and re-read it again :)

A node is a point along a standing wave where the wave has minimal amplitude. The opposite of a node is an antinode, a point where the amplitude of the standing wave is a maximum. These occur midway between the nodes.

Nodes and antinodes should not be confused with crests and troughs. When the motion of a traveling wave is discussed, it is customary to refer to a point of large maximum displacement as a crest and a point of large negative displacement as a trough. These represent points of the disturbance that travel from one location to another through the medium. An antinode on the other hand is a point on the medium that is staying in the same location. Furthermore, an antinode vibrates back and forth between a large upward and a large downward displacement. And finally, nodes and antinodes are not actually part of a wave. Recall that a standing wave is not actually a wave but rather a pattern that results from the interference of two or more waves. Since a standing wave is not technically a wave, an antinode is not technically a point on a wave. The nodes and antinodes are merely unique points on the medium that make up the wave pattern.
Nodes.png


I am a newbie..what is amplitude ??:indifferent14:

Amplitude is the measure of the amount of energy in a sound wave. So the greater the intensity of a sound, the greater the amplitude.

Fundamental frequency and harmonics:

We know that what we hear as a single sound or pitch when someone is speaking is really a fundamental frequency (determined by how many times the vocal folds vibrate in one second, and measured in cycles per second [cps], or Hertz. The frequency which drives the lowest standing wave is the fundamental frequency.
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/flash/string4.swf

if we vibrate the string twice as fast and assume that the speed of the wave, and thus the time taken to travel 'there and back', do NOT change, then by the time the wave gets back to the start the shaker will have completed two complete oscillations...but exactly two. This means that the returning wave still arrives at just the right 'point-in-phase' - and so interferes constructively with the next wave sent out. Another standing wave results:
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/flash/string5.swf

The same rules apply if the string is vibrated 3, 4, 5 etc times as fast, as the fundamental case. Because the standing waves occur at integer (whole-number) multiples of the fundamental frequency, they are sometimes called harmonics.

The harmonics are multiples of the fundamental frequency. So if the fundamental frequency is 100 Hz, the harmonics will be 200 Hz, 300 Hz, 400 Hz, 500 Hz, and so on. If the fundamental frequency were 220 Hz, the harmonics would be 440 Hz, 660 Hz, 880 Hz, and so on.

The animation below shows the first four harmonics of a string simultaneously:
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/flash/string8.swf

Musicians prefer the term overtones and physicists prefer the harmonic term. :) Harmonics and overtones are also called resonant frequencies.

SUBWOOFERS AND THE EFFECT OF STANDING WAVES:
Low frequency wavelengths are much longer (e.g., 56.5ft at 20Hz, 22.6ft at 50Hz, and 11.3ft at 100Hz) than higher frequency wavelengths (e.g., 3.8ft at 300Hz, 1.1ft at 1,000Hz, and 1 inch at 13,000Hz). This is important, especially below 150hz or so. Above 150hz, the waves are small enough that they are not affected by the room size as much. They bounce around every which way. Standing waves only become a significant problem at lower frequencies (below 100 Hz) because we normally set the crossover frequency around 85Hz.

Oh! what is this crossover stuff ??:mad:
Crossovers split the audio signal into separate frequency bands that can be separately routed to loudspeakers optimized for those bands.. In a home theater set up (5.1, the .1 being the sub-woofer) the amp will usually have a crossover setting. Assuming all speakers as set to 'small' then all frequencies below the crossover (usually around 80Hz) are sent to the sub-woofer, and all frequencies above sent to the remaining speakers.

In general, at most frequencies, the decay of sound waves is rapid, but when a sounds wavelength is precisely twice the size of a room dimension (e.g., length), the waves from both directions reinforce each other at the wall boundaries and cancel each other in the midpoint of these two boundaries, creating a resonant condition. Like most other resonant conditions, standing waves produce a fundamental tone (the lowest-frequency resonance the space will support) and a series of harmonics.

Standing waves in a room are called room modes or room resonance modes.

Type of Room Modes:
The sound waves interact with the room boundaries (walls, floor, and ceiling) and create standing waves or room modes. The standing waves are different between floor and ceiling, side walls, and end walls, unless any of these dimensions are the same (the worst kind of room is a perfect cube). There are three basic types of modes: axial, tangential, and oblique.

To gain some understanding of the room modes and standing waves, it will be very helpful to consider a one-dimensional acoustic space like a long narrow pipe. If both ends of the pipe are closed, then it becomes similar to a one-dimensional room.
Pipe.jpg


Now position a sub-woofer at one end of the pipe and connect it to a frequency generator. At the other end of the long pipe, put an SPL meter to measure the sound pressure. Start by feeding very low frequency signals to the subwoofer, you will notice no reading on the SPL meter. However, as you increase the frequency of the sound waves fed to the sub-woofer, you will reach a point where the reading on the SPL meter jumps to a high point. This is the first mode and is called the fundamental resonant frequency or the first harmonic frequency of the one-dimensional room (pipe).

Continue raising the frequency of the signals and the meter drops back to normal for a while, but finally peaks again. This next frequency is evidence of the second resonance mode and is called the second harmonic frequency. The frequency of this second resonance will be exactly twice that of the first resonance. If we increase the frequency of the signal some more, we will find the third resonance mode which will have exactly three times the frequency of the first fundamental resonance mode. This harmonic series can continue as we increase the frequency.

In a closed pipe, which has been stimulated into its first resonance condition, we will find that the sound is very loud at either end of the pipe and very quiet at the halfway point, the middle. These loud areas are called sound pressure zones. If the sub-woofer is placed in either of these pressure zones, it can pump up the resonant condition. However, if it is not placed in a pressure zone, it cannot pump up the resonant mode.

The second harmonic of a closed pipe has three pressure zones, one at either end and one in the middle. If we place the sub-woofer in any three of these pressure zones, we will stimulate the second harmonic. However, if we place the subwoofer in the middle pressure zone, we cannot stimulate the first resonance but we can still stimulate the second one. Let us now plot the sound pressure as a function of distance, and remember that one wave moves from left to right and the other moves from right to left and polarity changes each time we cross a null.

Harmonics.jpg


Important Facts About Subwoofers, Listeners, and Standing Waves

Sub-woofers are sound pressure generators. They will reinforce the room modes when they are located in high pressure regions of the standing waves.

If the sub-woofer is placed in the null areas, the corresponding modes will disappear.

The pressure zones are spread out and not pinpoint-sized. For all practical purposes, the sub-woofer should be located at least 25 percent away from the end of the pipe to best avoid stimulating any of its first three harmonics. There is no location towards the middle of the pipe that suits a sub-woofer position, as the pressure zones there are overlapping.

Calculating the Resonance Modes of a Home Theater Room and Sub-woofer Placement:

Axial Modes are the strongest and the most important, and the easiest to compute. A room can be approximated by three intersecting pipes. These pipes would lie along the three room axes: front to back, side to side, and floor to ceiling. For most rectangular home theater rooms, it may be sufficient to calculate only the axial modes of the room.

Since a room can enforce a wave twice as long as it is, the first fundamental frequency can be calculated by using the formula: Standing Wave Frequency = Speed of Sound / 2*Distance Between Boundaries.
If we multiply this frequency by 2, we will get the second harmonic frequency and so on. Usually it is necessary only to look at the first three or four modes because the crossover frequency for most home theater rooms are set around 80Hz-100Hz.

Let us now calculate the axial modes for a 15ft W x 20ft L x 8ft H room.

Width:
The first resonance frequency: 1130ftps / 2x15ft = 37.7Hz. (1130 ft/s is speed of sound in air)
The second resonance frequency: 37.7 x 2 = 75.4HZ.
The third resonance frequency: 37.7 x 3 = 113.1HZ, ignore, because it is above the roll-off frequency of 85Hz.
The sub-woofer has to be placed at least 25 percent away from the wall (15x0.25=3.75ft) because of the first harmonic, but that is the point of minimum of the second harmonic. Therefore, the sub-woofer can be placed anywhere between 3.75ft (minimum of the second harmonic) and 7.5ft (minimum of the first harmonic) away from either wall.

Length:
The first resonance frequency: 1130ftps / 2x20ft = 28.3Hz.
The second resonance frequency: 28.3 x 2 = 56.6HZ.
The third resonance frequency: 28.3 x 3 = 84.9HZ.
Since all three harmonics are below the roll-off frequency of 85Hz, we should place the subwoofer in a position that avoids the maximum and minimum of the three waves at least 25% (20 x0.25=5ft) from either end walls.

Height:

The first resonance frequency: 1130ftps / 2x8ft = 70.6Hz.
The second resonance frequency: 70.6 x 2 = 141.2HZ, ignore, because it is above the roll-off frequency of 85Hz.
The third resonance frequency: 70.6 x 3 = 211.8HZ, ignore, because it is above the roll-off frequency of 85Hz.
The vertical position for a subwoofer is anywhere in the middle half of the room, keeping it at least 25% (two) feet away from either the floor or ceiling.

So, a 15ft W x 20ft L x 8ft H room will have the smoothest bass if the subwoofer is located 2ft from the floor or 2ft from the ceiling (6ft from the floor), between 3.75ft and 7.5ft from the side walls, and five feet from the end walls. This is done to avoid the coupling of the subwoofer to room modes.

Dr. Floyd Toole, formerly of National Research Council of Canada and currently a Vice President and researcher at Harmon International has developed a simple Excel Program to calculate axial room modal frequencies.
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/Calculators/Room Mode Calculator.xls

Just change the room width, length and height in the excel sheet and you will get the updated room modes..

The following analysis is based on the work of Dr. Floyd Toole.
One Sub-woofer
Let us consider the width modes. One sub-woofer close to a wall is in the high pressure region of all the width modes and energizes all of them.
OneSub1.jpg


What happens if the sub-woofer is moved to the location of the first pressure minimum (green minimum)? That particular mode is not energized and will disappear. What then happens if it is moved to the next null (magenta minimum)? That mode will disappears, but the other one returns. Sub-woofer location determines which of the room resonances is activated, and which ones are not activated.

Optimum Position for One Sub-woofer:
If the sub-woofer is placed in the wrong position in the room, we hear room booms instead of music. Bad speaker positions are those that allow the speaker to stimulate room resonance (modes).

OneSub2.jpg


In a square or rectangular room, the center of the room is the worst location for the listening chair or for the subwoofer

Rule of 25:

The low frequency sound waves generated by sub-woofers interact with room boundaries and create standing waves (pressure zones). These pressure zones are spread out and not pinpoint-sized. For all practical purposes, the sub-woofer should be located at least 25 percent away from the room boundaries to best avoid stimulating any of its first three harmonics. There is no location towards the middle of the room that suits a sub woofer position, as the pressure zones there are overlapping.
This solution is suggested by Todd Welti at Harman International:
You shrink the whole room by 25% and put the subwoofers at the corners of that virtual room. Of course you get incredible performance, but that is not practical for most people. But if you use two or four subwoofers in the corners or the wall midpoints, you can get pretty good performance.

Room Modes (Additional Reference)
http://gikacoustics.com/what-are-room-modes/
 
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Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

If the sub-woofer is placed in the null areas, the corresponding modes will disappear.

In a square or rectangular room, the center of the room is the worst location for the listening chair or for the subwoofer
You're contradicting yourself. Not uncommon when you cut-n-paste from a Google search.

The two largest null areas (length and width) meet at the centre of the room (midpoint of room width and midpoint of room length). According to the statement above, placing a subwoofer in that null area (centre of the room) means that its corresponding modes (length AND width) will disappear.

Just so everyone understands: placing a subwoofer in a modal null will make the mode (that's causing the null) disappear.

When John Anthony placed his sub at the midpoint of his room width, his first width mode disappeared. He doesn't have to deal with the peaks & dips caused by that standing wave because he made it disappear.

Shelly, I'll ask again: Why are you telling people the centre of the room is the "worst position for a subwoofer" when it prevents the two largest nulls from occurring in a room?
 
Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

Would have been easier if you had simply provided the link to where you plagarized your "detailed tutorial" from.

So others can see: A Guide to Subwoofers (Part II): Standing Waves & Room Modes - Blu-ray Forum


You never read forum posts carefully...Please Read the beginning of the post before making comments..
You ego got pricked because you have been proved wrong again and again.....Please try to understand the science behind it..

During earlier post you told that glass wool was not carcinogenic and you were proved wrong with the US Health agency and WHO reports...
http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhancers-room-acoustics/46168-diy-room-accoustics-home-theatre-5.html

This forum I hope is for newbies like me to discuss and understand acoustics better rather than displaying "inflated ego"....

Please Read articles carefully before making comments...Calm down and read the whole stuff including opinions from world renowned experts...:)..we are not here to fight it out..just helping each other..:)

In a rectangular or square room, placing a subwoofer at the center of the room will avoid stimulating the first length harmonic AND avoid stimulating the first width harmonic, both at the same time. Why are you telling people it is the "worst position for a subwoofer" when it prevent the two largest nulls from occurring in a room?
__________________
Sanjay

In the first resonant mode, the room will be a half-wavelength across, with nodes at the walls and an anti-node in the centre, where the amplitude is highest.

The second harmonic of a closed pipe has three pressure zones, one at either end and one in the middle. If we place the sub-woofer in any three of these pressure zones, we will stimulate the second harmonic.

For all practical purposes, the sub-woofer should be located at least 25 percent away from the end of the pipe/wall to best avoid stimulating any of its first three harmonics. There is no location towards the middle of the pipe/wall that suits a sub-woofer position, as the pressure zones there are overlapping.
OneSub2.jpg


This is physics at work and not opinion of shelley or Sanjay or John...Each room is different and the same sound is experienced by different persons differently...So what sounds good for me may not suit your taste...

Moreover, if you feel that glass wool is the best material...go for it...or if you feel that placing sub-woofer in the middle of room is ideal...go for it..You have your own opinions and I have mine, for specific reasons, maybe due to health aspects, or maybe due to obsession for the science behind it..I am a software professional not an acoustic expert..:)..Good Luck :)
 
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Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

You ego got pricked because you have been proved wrong again and again.....Please try to understand the science behind it..

This forum I hope is for newbies like me to discuss and understand acoustics better rather than displaying "inflated ego"....
Wow, resorting to personal comments about me rather than discussing the topic itself.
During earlier post you told that glass wool was not carcinogenic and you were proved wrong with the US Health agency and WHO reports...
http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhancers-room-acoustics/46168-diy-room-accoustics-home-theatre-5.html
That's not true at all, and folks can go back in the thread and read for themselves what happened. I said that mice weren't tested by inhaling but it turns out they did inhale. I had no problem admitting I was wrong about that.

By comparison, were you able to admit you were wrong when you said "You are not removing bass by bass traps..."?

BTW, the very WHO report you cited couldn't finding cancer in humans due to fiberglass exposure, even amongst workers in a fiberglass factory. No proof that it is a carcinogen, even after an entire job-life of exposure.

Further, the International Agency on Cancer Research (IACR) removed fiberglass from its possibly carcinogenic to humans list in 2001.

By comparison, you have yet to show any proof that it is a carcinogen to humans. If you can find such proof, let the IARC know.
For all practical purposes, the sub-woofer should be located at least 25 percent away from the end of the pipe/wall to best avoid stimulating any of its first three harmonics. There is no location towards the middle of the pipe/wall that suits a sub-woofer position, as the pressure zones there are overlapping.
OneSub2.jpg

This is what modes look like in a room:

LL


Placing a subwoofer at the 25% point puts it at one of the nulls of the 2nd mode, which will cancel that mode. Likewise, placing that same sub at the midpoint (50%) will put it in the null of the 1st mode, which will cancel that mode.

So folks have a choice of which mode to cancel. Since the 1st mode is at half the frequency than the 2nd mode, bass traps would have to be unreasonably thick to cancel the low frequency of the 1st mode. Easier to use trapping to address the 2nd mode, since the absorption can be relatively thinner at the higher frequency. So better to cancel the 1st mode using subwoofer placement.

Besides, the 1st mode is much larger than the 2nd mode. If you can only cancel one of them, get rid of the bigger problem. Midpoint placement gets rid of a bigger null than quarter-point placement.
This is physics at work and not opinion of shelley or Sanjay or John...Each room is different and the same sound is experienced by different persons differently...So what sounds good for me may not suit your taste...

Moreover, if you feel that glass wool is the best material...go for it...or if you feel that placing sub-woofer in the middle of room is ideal...go for it..You have your own opinions and I have mine, for specific reasons, after reading and consulting acoustic experts..I am a software professional not an acoustic expert..:)
You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
 
Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

Since the 1st mode is at half the frequency than the 2nd mode, bass traps would have to be unreasonably thick to cancel the low frequency of the 1st mode.

Try to understand what happens when different room modes overlap, rather than viewing it independently...Read carefully..rather than rushing through articles...:)..
OneSub2.jpg


Watch the image carefully and view the sub-woofer placings...(between 25% and 50%)

A 15ft W x 20ft L x 8ft H room will have the smoothest bass if the subwoofer is located 2ft from the floor or 2ft from the ceiling (6ft from the floor), between 3.75ft and 7.5ft from the side walls, and five feet from the end walls. This is done to avoid the coupling of the subwoofer to room modes.

Go for best sub-woofer room placement first, and then bass traps...We will get smooth bass...
The First Resonance Frequency for a 15ft W x 20ft L x 8ft H room is at 37.7Hz (width) and 28.3Hz for Length. How much sound at these frequencies will be there in a movie ????


All these graphs and statements and facts are not my opinion and they are from world renowned acoustic experts..So literally what you are telling is that all those experts are wrong and you are correct..:)
 
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Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

The First Resonance Frequency for a 15ft W x 20ft L x 8ft H room is at 37.7Hz (width) and 28.3Hz for Length.
Both of those resonances can be cancelled by placing a subwoofer at the centre of the room. As the article says "If the sub-woofer is placed in the null areas, the corresponding modes will disappear."

Making the 2 largest modes in a room disappear is impressive, considering it required no cost, just moving the subwoofer. Yet you call it the worst location for a subwoofer.
All these graphs and statements and facts are not my opinion and they are from world renowned acoustic experts..So literally what you are telling is that all those experts are wrong and you are correct..:)
You still don't understand. The article is talking about where to place a subwoofer so it doesn't interact with room modes. I'm talking about placing subs where they interact (actively cancel) room modes, thereby removing some of the peaks & dips in the room. There's no reason to limit a subwoofer to merely producing bass when it can also be used to smoothen out the frequency response.
 
Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

BTW, the very WHO report you cited couldn't finding cancer in humans due to fiberglass exposure, even amongst workers in a fiberglass factory. No proof that it is a carcinogen

Regarding glass wool, you are again confusing readers...Glass wool has been proved carcinogenic in mice by various modes (including inhalation)..Clinical trials and studies are carried out mostly in mice and other animals and inference gained out of it. You cannot test on humans...Cigarette smoke is a carcinogen...Does not mean that all people who smoke can get cancer...But probability of getting cancer is higher...Same is the case with glass wool..It depends on whether you are willing to take the risk or not..:)

Here is the report again..Glass Wool Reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen (PDF File)

Read it carefully :)
Reference:Report on Carcinogens, Twelfth Edition(2011)

Glass Wool fibers significantly increased the incidences of lung cancer (carcinoma) and total lung tumors (carcinoma and adenoma)

National Toxicology Program, Department of Health and Human Services, United States
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/twelfth/profiles/GlassWoolFibers.pdf


Both of those resonances can be cancelled by placing a subwoofer at the centre of the room. As the article says "If the sub-woofer is placed in the null areas, the corresponding modes will disappear."

You are still talking only about 1st resonant mode.. Try to understand what happens when modes overlap. In a practical situation, in a home theater room there will be multiple room modes at work and we need to find the best position where we can even out most of the modes rather than discussing only about first resonant mode..

"If the sub-woofer is placed in the null areas, the corresponding modes will disappear."

Yes, placing sub-woofer at 50% will cancel out 1st resonant mode....But what about other modes and overlapping modes ??? In a practical situation there will be multiples room modes and their interactions to be considered...

Yes, I'm also talking about placing subs where they interact (actively cancel) room modes, thereby removing some of the peaks & dips in the room :)

Applying a bit of maths you will understand that the ideal position (taking into consideration all room modes) will be between 25% and 50% and not exact middle of the room...
 
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Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

Yes, I'm also talking about placing subs where they interact (actively cancel) room modes, thereby removing some of the peaks & dips in the room

Applying a bit of maths you will understand that the ideal position (taking into consideration all room modes) will be between 25% and 50% and not exact middle...
Since placing a subwoofer at a null cancels that mode, the only null between the 25% and 50% locations will be the 4th order mode. For the 15ft W x 20ft L room you used as an example, the 4th order modes will be at 150Hz and 113Hz, respectively.

Those frequencies are above the typical crossover point, so the subwoofer won't be much help addressing those modes. Since there are no lesser order nulls between the 25% and 50% locations, which particular modes will you be "actively cancelling"?
 
The only null between the 25% and 50% locations will be the 4th order mode

Sorry sanjay, you are confused...I never discussed about 4th order mode, because it is not relevant for sub-woofer positioning?? Only positions for 3 harmonics or room modes and optimal placement for smoother bass..

OneSub2.jpg


Please view the graphs and try to understand it...X axis displays length of the room and Y axis the amplitude or loudness of the standing wave..Amplitude is maximum at the sides of the wall...all three lines or room modes at maximum..

Watch the sub-woofer positions carefully..

What happens if the sub-woofer is moved to the location of the first pressure minimum (green minimum in the graph)? That particular mode is not energized and will disappear. What then happens if it is moved to the next null (magenta minimum)? That mode will disappear, but the other one (green) returns. What happens when it is placed between, as shown in the graph above....???

Another image displaying 4 room modes...

how-to-fix-subwoofer-boominess-tn.jpg


Try to understand what happens when 3 room modes overlap, rather than discussing only about the first room mode, as in real life situations we have multiple room modes at play, after taking into consideration the room dimensions...

Place the subwoofer in a position that avoids the maximum and minimum of the three waves for smoother bass..
 
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What happens if the sub-woofer is moved to the location of the first pressure minimum (green minimum in the graph)? That particular mode is not energized and will disappear. What then happens if it is moved to the next null (magenta minimum)? That mode will disappear, but the other one (green) returns. What happens when it is placed between, as shown in the graph above....???
When you don't place the sub at any null, then none of the modes disappear.
 
Re: DIY Room Acoustics for Home-Theatre

Rule of 25:

The low frequency sound waves generated by sub-woofers interact with room boundaries and create standing waves (pressure zones). These pressure zones are spread out and not pinpoint-sized. For all practical purposes, the sub-woofer should be located at least 25 percent away from the room boundaries to best avoid stimulating any of its first three harmonics. There is no location towards the middle of the room that suits a sub woofer position, as the pressure zones there are overlapping.

Shelley,
What you are saying above is in direct contradiction with what follows next.
This solution is suggested by Todd Welti at Harman International:
You shrink the whole room by 25% and put the subwoofers at the corners of that virtual room. Of course you get incredible performance, but that is not practical for most people. But if you use two or four subwoofers in the corners or the wall midpoints, you can get pretty good performance.

A page earlier, you had different views about placement.
For maximum output, some experts suggest that you put a single subwoofer in a corner for maximum output and place a second one in a less reflective area to smooth out the response.

Dr. Toole suggests that in a rectangular room you should put one subwoofer close to the front wall in the middle, and another subwoofer at the back of the room in the same relative position. THX recommends placing them in the middle of the left and right walls.


Which one you think is a science fact?
 
@manoj

Todd Welti at Harman International has just provided a theoretical scenario comparing sub-woofer placement between 25% and 50% for best performance and shrinking a room to 25% (virtual)...
What was the contradiction ???

A page earlier, you had different views about placement.

For maximum output, some experts suggest that you put a single subwoofer in a corner for maximum output and place a second one in a less reflective area to smooth out the response. Dr. Toole suggests that in a rectangular room you should put one subwoofer close to the front wall in the middle, and another subwoofer at the back of the room in the same relative position. THX recommends placing them in the middle of the left and right walls.

You have not quoted the beginning of my comment which was as follows: (Have you missed reading that ????)

Post 94 in the following page...
http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhanc...om-accoustics-home-theatre-10.html#post528529
"In most circumstances two subwoofers will perform better than one. While you might assume this is for added SPL, the greatest benefit will actually be smoother bass response. Two subwoofers are easier to place and result in a flatter frequency response and creation of a much larger sweet spot for everyone in the room to hear smoother and more consistent bass."

For maximum output, some experts suggest that you put a single subwoofer in a corner for maximum output and place a second one in a less reflective area to smooth out the response.

Dr. Toole suggests that in a rectangular room you should put one subwoofer close to the front wall in the middle, and another subwoofer at the back of the room in the same relative position. THX recommends placing them in the middle of the left and right walls.

The experts are referring to 2 sub-woofers placed in a room..A better option for smoother bass for everyone in a room and not for a single person or position..

I was talking about a single sub-woofer placement in a closed rectangular room and its harmonics :)..

I believe in physical laws and all these inferences are scientific and not based on intuitions and the views are those of acoustic experts, not mine...:)
 
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Shelley,

Yes, I understand those views are of experts and not yours. I am just trying to understand which one is to follow.

The "shrinking room by 25%" by Todd Welti is the same thing that Sanjay suggested earlier - putting two subs at quarter points from each wall. Now, question remains what to do when you have two subs. You can either place those at mid-points of opposite walls. If you put these on front and back wall mid point, it will take care of length modes but of the first order. Now, just imagine, if these two subs are at the midwall of front and back, playing the exact same signal, where do you think it will image?

For that matter - as THX recommends, if the two subs are at midpoint of left and right wall, playing same signal, where will it image?

Exactly - it will image in the center of the room. Same thing then can be achieved by putting a single sub in the center of the room (if we can put a single sub in the center of the room)

Not trying to rub it in or something - but trying to simplify things.

I think on page 10 - Sanjay linked an image from Floyd Tools paper of two subs placement and its effect. First it shows two subs in corner and then getting rid of the width modes by placing those in quarter locations. That picture is so self explanatory. Same thing can be done across length and that's where the virtual shrinking by 25% comes into picture. Again the limitation comes in the fact we can't put subs on floor on those positions. But you can certainly put those in the ceiling, if you have enough height and support to hold these subs.
 
As THX recommends, if the two subs are at midpoint of left and right wall, playing same signal, where will it image?
Exactly - it will image in the center of the room.
Same thing then can be achieved by putting a single sub in the center of the room (if we can put a single sub in the center of the room)

Really Amazing...Great conclusion...:) is it quantum physics ??? :) LOL

Yes, I understand those views are of experts and not yours. I am just trying to understand which one is to follow.
Follow your friend Sanjay and his views :)

Not trying to rub it in or something - but trying to simplify things. .

Understood, that you are not trying to rub it in or something...:)

@manoj @sanjay
Place a single sub in the center and be happy :)..Enjoy Life :)

I have 2 sub-woofers :) :)
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The best way to convince a person that he is wrong is to let him have his own way. Josh Billings
 
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@manoj @sanjay
Place a single sub in the center and be happy :)..Enjoy Life :)

I have 2 sub-woofers :) :)
I use 2 subs, have for well over a decade. Manoj has been using a pair of subs for years as well.
Dr. Toole suggests that in a rectangular room you should put one subwoofer close to the front wall in the middle, and another subwoofer at the back of the room in the same relative position. THX recommends placing them in the middle of the left and right walls.
Toole and THX recommend middle of walls rather than somewhere between 25% and 50%.
 
I use 2 subs, have for well over a decade. Manoj has been using a pair of subs for years as well. Toole and THX recommend middle of walls rather than somewhere between 25% and 50%.

WoW...Really......Buy 2 more subs and make it 4.and place all 4 in middle of wall...and be happy :lol:
Toole and THX recommendation is for placing 2 sub-woofers and not 1 sub-woofer as was discussed in earlier posts. You are repeating the same thing again and again because you did not understand the acoustic principles of placing a single sub-woofer in a rectangular room...you and your friend are complicating things and confusing yourselves by comparing a single sub-woofer setup with 2 sub-woofer setup..

The principles governing a single sub-woofer setup and multiple sub-woofer setup in a room are different..Please try to understand atleast that fact...

Two Subwoofers Against the Opposite Walls Across the Width of the Room

Two subwoofer against opposite walls will cancel the odd-numbered modes (1, 3), leaving only one active mode. In the diagram below, blue and green modes will be eliminated, leaving behind only the magenta mode.
TwoSub1.jpg


A single subwoofer against a wall will energize all the room modes. However, if we place another subwoofer with the same polarity against the opposite wall, the first and third modes will have opposite polarities at the subwoofer locations and the subwoofers will behave in a destructive manner, cancelling the odd-numbered modes. This will leave only the second (magenta) mode across the width of the room.


Two Subwoofer Move to the Null Position of the Second (Magenta) Mode

If we move the subwoofers to the null locations for the second mode, they will still be in opposite polarity regions for the odd-numbered (blue and green) modes, and as a result width modes are significantly reduced, if not eliminated. What this means is that everyone across the width of the room will hear the same bass sound.
TwoSub2.jpg


Source: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286

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If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
France, Anatole
 
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