Do good cables really enhance SQ?

[kg_murali]

Hi Guys,

What about the PCB copper tracks inside the Amp and the type of solder used ? what about the leads of the power devices ? All oxygen free ??

One more question, do these cable manufacturers have a foundry and draw the wires themselves or ....

Regards

Murali KG

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thad,

Very aptly put.

While i don't believe in cable wars. I do believe that you need cable that is thick/sturdy enough with proper shielding and good terminations. Beyond that, there is no real benefit going higher up/paying more.

Absolutely agreed: my speaker cables are not expensive, but they are thick (in fact, double, from dabbling in bi-wiring).

End of the day, good is anything one's ear is pleased by. It's a state constantly in evolution. Always affected by our brain chemistry and mood.

Some days I wonder what's wrong with my hifi; other days I love it and think it'll do me for a lifetime.

guys, before we start yet anbother Cable discussion..pls do remember
http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge/23897-10-biggest-lies-audio.html

(those who have forgotten or not participated..it is well worth the effort)
and if you finished that, try this

Very good point: ten biggest lies and we didn't get beyond number one, about cables! --- but I'm sure there will be many more threads!

Something non-cable about cables. The other day I was browsing some high end stuff, and one of the things I noticed about expensive cables was things like real-wood boxes, leather bags, etc. How much does that add to the cost? Whatever is our budget point of choice, we go out, buy cables, connect stuff up --- and chuck the packaging

 

[musicbee]

Oh what a thread! Subscribed

I'm subscribing too!

@Amit - Good cables will not improve what's not there i.e. playing mp3 on the best rig is still going to sound like mp3. But using bad cables will degrade SQ and I know that from personal experience.

 

[captrajesh]

guys, before we start yet anbother Cable discussion..pls do remember
http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge/23897-10-biggest-lies-audio.html

(those who have forgotten or not participated..it is well worth the effort)
and if you finished that, try this

There were such discussions before and there would be such discussions in the years to come. What would be the outcome would be anybody's guess. Unless these are backed by real world (read physical) experience, it is futile to get into this kind of slugfest. That's what held me from posting on this thread since I saw it yesterday but I had to share what my experience was, as late as yesterday.

I wanted to post about the Power chords thread referred above but Arj beat me to it. I want to particularly highlight the posts below to buttress what I experienced with the Supra power chords: -
http://www.hifivision.com/audio-video-cables/17044-power-cords-2.html#post233822

http://www.hifivision.com/audio-video-cables/17044-power-cords-4.html#post234813

http://www.hifivision.com/audio-video-cables/17044-power-cords-4.html#post307591

http://www.hifivision.com/audio-video-cables/17044-power-cords-15.html#post319672

I had posted about my experience with I/C and speaker cables here

I was using the following power cables:

1. CDP - Cardas Golden Reference
2. DAC - Yamamura Milleneum 5000
3. Preamp - Custom built shielded cables from Jochen
4. Poweramp - Custom built shielded cables from Jochen

I had acquired Supra power chords for preamp and power amp some time back but couldn't put them to use because of lack of US type plugs. I had done complete revamp of electrical fittings in my house a week ago which included 8 Nos MK brand plugs connected directly to the mains through a dedicated 1.5 sq. mm Finolex cable.

I have removed the custom cables from Jochen and replaced them with Supras on Saturday which I was dying to listen ever since I got the new MK plug cluster. Switched on the system one by one. The CD that was in the tray was Pandit Ravishankar (don't remember the title)

The difference was palpable. Amazing clarity and improved sound stage. After 10 odd minutes I remembered that I had to see how my speakers would compare the tracks I had listened on the Rethm Maargas the day before at their demo room in Cochin. The bass response has improved majorly along with increased sound stage but the down side is, mid range which used to sound so magical earlier has muddied up a bit. Instrument separation and three dimentional sound stage that was the forte of my preamp is not so palpable anymore. I was listening to Santana of which I had listened two tracks at Rethm. The results were the same on the entire CD. Pink Floyd DSOTM was the next CD to be played. As long as the kick drum does not kick in (pun intended) the music sounds superb. The moment LF content gets played, mid range goes for a toss. I need to now fine tune the speaker placement I guess. I bring them 3 feet from the rear wall usually and feet and half from the side walls. Need to do some experiments to fine tune the system now.

 

[arj]

I need to now fine tune the speaker placement I guess. I bring them 3 feet from the rear wall usually and feet and half from the side walls. Need to do some experiments to fine tune the system now.

Capt, you seem to be on the right track. higher bass can impact the midrange due to the harmonics. the best way i could find of removing it was with a Diagonal placement ie speakers fire in diagonally from one corner to the other. better not to keep it symmentrical when you do so so that the corner does not come between the speakers.

But whatever you do do only after you have listened to it at least once for close to 30 min to 1 hour minimum (tough to do)

have made many mistakes in the past by quick A/Bs

 

[Vijay_s]

Cable made only difference to my pocket, may be, I do not have a golden ear

 

[vishug]

im confused...i was going to buy monster cables...but now should I spend on it or not?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Can anyone help me find this link? Edit: Found! ... see post #36

There is a guy, American I think, who designs and builds high end equipment. He firmly believes that cables do not make a difference, and has had an open challenge out to cable manufacturers to prove to him that they can and do. His take was that if he could genuinely add more stuff every time he sells something, then more profit in his pocket and all to the good. Nobody, for a long time, accepted the challenge. Eventually, he received a set of [Kimber, IIRC] cables and put them to the test. This is a long story, and it needs his telling, so that people know the background, the test method and ground rules and all. On that basis, although I roughly remember the outcome, lets find the site, rather than have me pass on a shadow of a shadow of the result!

...i was going to buy monster cables...but now should I spend on it or not?

Even if you believe in cables, you might want to find out what some of the consumer sites out there think of certain companies and how they do business. If I wanted to buy expensive cable, I'd probably go for Kimber ... but, as I don't [much, and not for speakers], I'm not that familiar with a range of makers and the last person to give a recommendation.

 

[gobble]

All other beliefs and debates about the merits of cables notwithstanding ...

A cable is like a HiFi mangalsutra . Now as a Groom would you buy your Wife-to-be any el-cheapo imitation stuff? Or buy the most expensive one you could afford? Your wifey could punish you for the rest of your life secretly in various ways, without you realizing it or what your fault was... Likewise your Hifi could punish you with poorer SQ without you realizing where the fault lay. Both are a nag!! hyeah:

So my dear friends, do not be a Scrrooge when it comes to this little task. Attention to detail may reap rewards that can make heaven on earth. Or lack of it will doom you to eternal hell for the rest of your stay on this planet

-G0bble

 

[nandac]

Your wifey could punish you for the rest of your life secretly in various ways, without you realizing it or what your fault was... Likewise your Hifi could punish you with poorer SQ without you realizing where the fault lay. Both are a nag!! hyeah:

you said it man

those who say cables don't make any difference :

1. have probably never spent on quality cables
2. don't have a discernable ear
3. have bad equipment
4. landed a defective quality cable which put them off

if sq difference can be heard between a sony and a naim, why can't such differences exist between cheap cables and quality cables?

companies like chord or kimber or nordost, don't exist on a lie.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

A cable is like a HiFi mangalsutra ...

:lol:

I may have no time for the leather bags and the wooden boxes, but I love those pieces of solid oak on the ends of cables! But no point in buying: I wouldn't be able to see them through the dust my cables collect anyway. And the dust certainly enhances the sound. It's not "burn-in" that enhances speaker cables: it's dust! clean them at your peril

 

[jenson]

A cable is like a HiFi mangalsutra .
-G0bble

lol

dudes, take it from a dud like me, decent cables makes hell lot of difference. now is that to say expensive cables sound better? not really, i recently compared a 10k worth IC with one costing INR 600/- i really liked what the INR 600 worth bandridge had to offer, is that to say the 10k worth IC waas bad? not atall, just that it wasnt suited for my room and liking.

so is that to say do cables add flavor? i would presume, they do. irrrespective of their claims to be neutral. i would like think of cables as a delivery mechanisms with specific intent behind the design.

also, one other thing which probably helped me see this difference is, signal was really short...as in - CDP -> AMP -> Speaker. plus this amp doesnt have bass or treble controls, so, sound was as flat as it could possibly be. plus, songs with lot of dynamics were played... like Pink Floyd's dsotm and division bell, Page and Plants - No Quarter, pat metheny's the way up & Sade

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

i would like think of cables as a delivery mechanisms with specific intent behind the design.

That's just what they want you to think .

However, some of them are, at least, sincere.

 

[jenson]

That's just what they want you to think .

However, some of them are, at least, sincere.

lol, what i can say, im easy

btw, with specific intent, i meant, some (may) have better bass..others maybe drier/muddled...whatever..i leave it to you experts for dissection

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

some (may) have better bass..others maybe drier/muddled...whatever.

This is where belief deserts me! I know we are talking strictly analogue here, so it is not like a data-is-data-digital thing, but my unscientific uninformed untechnical assumption is that a cable design could be enhanced for electrical factors such as better conductivity, better rejection of interference, etc. Is it even possible to divide that into frequency bands? Engineers, please?

There is one law of audio that we all know, and should all never forget: louder, unless already too loud, always sounds better. I wonder, then, if even a small variation in resistance on a cable might give a volume increase of which we are not conscious, but is still registered by our brains as a slight change in tonality?. I'm wildly theorising here ... and, even I know that interested people do do measurements, so the answer is probably out there.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Can anyone help me find this link?

GOTCHA! :clapping:

Having searched my entire browser history to no avail (as old as my OS installation, so finite, but big). Eventially I hit on the right thing to ask Google

I really recommend this to all, regardless of point of view:

1. AVA Hifi - An open letter to "Good Sounding" Cable Manufacturers

2. Update on the "Wire Challenge" & The Great Wire Challenge Concluded

(and this time I'll bookmark it!)

 

[jaudere]

I have no experience with interconnects/power cords but I have experinced that the cables do make a change in sound. Sometimes I liked the change, some times I did not. I did not use costly cables but compared multistranded to single stranded, both copper.
Onetype of cable on right speaker and the other on loeft and played music that had same content on both channels and then roatated the balance knob to left and to right repeatedly.
SO I belive that
1)speaker cables do make a change in sound. However godd cable does not mean expensive cable.

2) The change in sound does not necessarily mean improvement in sound. It is a change. some may/some may not like it.

3) The change affects different genres and recordings differently. Some genres may become 'bettter', some may become'Worse' according to individual tastes.

4) Finally I came to conclusion that everyone needs some change is sound by changing cable/changing speaker placement/buying eqiopment withbetter synergy/room treatment/ plugging the bass ports etc. So Finally I went for 31 band dual channel graphic equalizers recently which is much easier and cheaper than others to fine tune and get the sound of my liking (though this is not meant for audio purists).

 

[sound1]

A cable is like a HiFi mangalsutra . Now as a Groom would you buy your Wife-to-be any el-cheapo imitation stuff? Or buy the most expensive one you could afford? Your wifey could punish you for the rest of your life secretly in various ways, without you realizing it or what your fault was... Likewise your Hifi could punish you with poorer SQ without you realizing where the fault lay. Both are a nag!! hyeah:
-G0bble

Seriously man, THIS is your personal best. I know you know it

PS: Sanskrit poet Kaalidasa would be running for his money if he was alive today.
He was very well known for his 'Upama' in his poems (Upama = comparisons, not the concrete we eat in the resturants)

 

[Rockfella]

"Concrete we eat in the restaurants" :lol::lol:

Seriously man, THIS is your personal best. I know you know it

PS: Sanskrit poet Kaalidasa would be running for his money if he was alive today.
He was very well known for his 'Upama' in his poems (Upama = comparisons, not the concrete we eat in the resturants)

 

[sound1]

This is where belief deserts me! I know we are talking strictly analogue here, so it is not like a data-is-data-digital thing, but my unscientific uninformed untechnical assumption is that a cable design could be enhanced for electrical factors such as better conductivity, better rejection of interference, etc. Is it even possible to divide that into frequency bands? Engineers, please?

There is one law of audio that we all know, and should all never forget: louder, unless already too loud, always sounds better. I wonder, then, if even a small variation in resistance on a cable might give a volume increase of which we are not conscious, but is still registered by our brains as a slight change in tonality?. I'm wildly theorising here ... and, even I know that interested people do do measurements, so the answer is probably out there.

I am WILDLY speculating here and could be totally wrong, but here is what I think:

Every cable has some resistance and capacitance and it acts as an RC circuit. It is a low pass filter or high pass filter depending on whether the capacitance is in parallel or series with the resistance, in addition to associated phase shift and distortion. For details on frequency and phase response, see here: RC circuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

As you can see, it has the potential to affect the impulse response thereby making the sound muddy and smeared.
<hyperbole> But hey, it takes a really badass cable to totally screw up the sound, like a Rs. 100 IC from SP road or a 100m 18 gauge speaker cable <\hyperbole>