Does Cost of Amp or speaker means best quality audio?

[Audio_Freek]

I think there are some clearly established rules -

1 - Bigger driver can give more SPL and is essential for LF
2 - More number of drivers means more independent and truthful sound generation generally(as there is lesser distortion, because of dedicated driver for each frequency range).
3 - Cabinet, driver material, crossover material does affect the sound quality. At least it would affect the durability.


For systems below 30k, you will be missing at least first 2 points mentioned above. You wont be getting true LF, would not get multiple(3 or more) good drivers.
50-60k seems to be the real saturation point.

Headphones and IEM can achieve this same level of SQ at much lesser cos, but they have their own limitations.

theredcommando,

With your point of view, the FS should be the best as its atleast covers point 1&2,but in real case scenario rate and performance of BS and FS doesn't have much difference.

Sorry to talk apart form title, In my childhood days i use to think like "The speakers with very heavy magnet,Dust cover and size are the best in world" but once coming to the real world understood the Quality..

The Speakers played in local orchestra will be big,with many drivers but if you look the quality of sound, it will be thrown out.

About 3 - Cabinet, driver material, crossover material does affect the sound quality. At least it would affect the durability.


I have read an article that B&W is spending much on designing its new cabinet to give a different look on its speakers apart form rectangular box. so are they simply wasting moneyBut do agree with your point while running a tweeter and Full range speaker with any wooden box

I have noticed the Paper-cone drivers delivers the voice and strings accurately than fiber cone drivers

Cross-overs are some great stuffs and i cant consider it as misc material placed in speaker.. If you play any BF or FS directly from output, without connecting to the CROSS-OVER ,Am pretty sure your tweeter would just while increasing the volume.


The reasons i could list out these things is" Am not a DIY party, just i have experience in re-coning my own speakers to a large extent and finally gave up understanding the about things.

A GOOD SPEAKER NEEDS
Good cabinet designed with proper material measuring the total drivers performance.

Quality drivers build with proper material and coil etc

Good Cross-covers which does the job of distributing the frequencies for the drivers

 

[jaudere]

Multiple drivers does not necessarily mean better sound. there are many single driver applications out there. I myself use a big fullranger (12") which plays from 50Hz to 9khz without any crossover (but needs tweeter with 1st order high pass filter above that ). The main advantage of full ranger single driver being coherence of sound because the signal is not artificially split by crossover in the critical frequency band.

Consider following situation. Mid and tweeter crossed at about 2KHz (a common XO point). A female singer singing in multiple octaves. When her voice goes above 2Khz, it will be played by tweeter and when it goes in lower octave(lower than 2Khz), it will be played by mid driver. No matter how much you try, there will be slight difference in the timbre of the two speakers which your ears can detect. So the voice keeps on coming out through different drivers as the song progresses

The same instruments/voice , at different frequencies , is played by different drivers and can cause loss of coherence. So multiple drivers may be ok but the main bulk of music , (which will lie between 80Hz to 8Khz) should ideally be played by a full range/wideband single driver.

Additionally, most of the music emanating from single source can give better imaging. That is why,multiple drivers , when mounted co-axially may give better results than when mounted vertically.

 

[musicbee]

You need to realize only one thing...

People buy based on emotion and not logic. They may use logic to justify their purchase but the purchasing decision is always emotional.

Marketing (selling) = Pulling the emotional trigger in people that will make them purchase the product irrespective of whether its worthy or not.

Purchasing = Buying something to satisfy your emotions and then use your mind to justify it (if the need arises).

I am a marketer by profession and I (I'm sure all the good marketers the world over) use this very strategy to sell people stuff they don't need (I'm not stating I sell bad stuff... just stuff people don't need). This is true for every area of life... not just audiophiles. It is demonstrated in the car industry, in clothes, in cosmetics... even ordinary women/housewives who go grocery shopping are caught in this web too.

I really don't see why only the audio industry and audiophiles get bad rep for what's the norm in the marketing industry.

Then at the other end of the spectrum are people who want to create something that's pure genius or never done before. Enzo Ferrari wanted to build the best car ever. Soichiro Honda wanted to build the best bike ever. Alon Wolf (from the limited high end speakers I've heard) is trying to build the best speaker ever. I do think considering what goes into production of the Magico Q7 it should be expensive though I'm not sure it should be the $165,000 they are asking for it.

Anyways sorry for going OT. But to answer your question people don't buy expensive stuff because they need it or because it sounds the best. All purchase decisions are emotional... so they buy everything (including expensive speakers) because it fulfills an emotional need for them.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I really don't see why only the audio industry and audiophiles get bad rep for what's the norm in the marketing industry.

Because if you convince people, by psychological trickery, that something is of a certain quality and worth a certain price when it isn't --- it's called, for starters, lying.

It's quite likely that you have a good example, from the software industry, staring you in the face right now. And however not-too-bad-now it might be, they still sold us the versions that were downright awful and charged us for the "upgrades" that were supposed to "improve" it.

There's a certain cable company I wouldn't go anywhere near too. There's nothing wrong with the marketing of genuine quality, and its absence, or mishandling (think eg, Logitech, Squeezebox) is just as bad as the opposite

Edit. Guess what I read next: this is not software or cables, it is life and death

 

[corElement]

You need to realize only one thing...

People buy based on emotion and not logic. They may use logic to justify their purchase but the purchasing decision is always emotional.

Yep, emotion will rule over anything.

BTW, I would like to point out somethings

1.Bigger drivers can push higher spl quite true given their size. However just because they're big does not mean they all push a lot of SPL.

Take the yamaha ns1000 for example. It has a 10" woofer and yet has extremely lean bass. This is because it was configured in such a way is performs according to how the designer wanted it to perform. Not just because of it's size.

2. More drivers does not mean better at ALL. It is an entirely dynamic scenario varying from model to model, designer to designer, driver to driver, application to application. One cannot generalize like that.

3 - Cabinet, driver material, crossover material does affect the sound quality. At least it would affect the durability - It affects a lot LOT LOT MORE than durability. A speaker can be -100% it's potential if it's crossed over without being given proper thought.

 

[musicbee]

Because if you convince people, by psychological trickery, that something is of a certain quality and worth a certain price when it isn't --- it's called, for starters, lying.

It's quite likely that you have a good example, from the software industry, staring you in the face right now. And however not-too-bad-now it might be, they still sold us the versions that were downright awful and charged us for the "upgrades" that were supposed to "improve" it.

There's a certain cable company I wouldn't go anywhere near too. There's nothing wrong with the marketing of genuine quality, and its absence, or mishandling (think eg, Logitech, Squeezebox) is just as bad as the opposite

Edit. Guess what I read next: this is not software or cables, it is life and death

But that's marketing for you. And my question is are the audio companies getting a bad rep only because this is an AV forum or do all of us really give a bad rep to everyone that deserves it outside of this forum. I think not... most of us have gotten used to it and carry on as if nothing is wrong.

I have studied under some of the best marketing gurus in the world and also sat under the teachings of some of the best copywriters in the world... some of these guys charge $5000 to $10,000 an hour just to write a sales letter... still worth it because that sales letter/pitch will go on to sell millions.

And you would be shocked/surprised at how the marketing/copywriting industry works. The bottom line is profit. Let me clarify though that the first rule of copywriting is the product sells itself. Have a good product and it will sell on its own... all the hype, the sales pitch is only to make it visible to the end user... from there on the individual's own "emotions" will take over and close the sale.

The audio industry is no better/no worse. Even companies like Coca Cola, McDonald's, KFC, our own Reliance, AirTel, Tata (and so many more are worse offenders).

 

[musicbee]

Yep, emotion will rule over anything.

BTW, I would like to point out somethings

1.Bigger drivers can push higher spl quite true given their size. However just because they're big does not mean they all push a lot of SPL.

Take the yamaha ns1000 for example. It has a 10" woofer and yet has extremely lean bass. This is because it was configured in such a way is performs according to how the designer wanted it to perform. Not just because of it's size.

2. More drivers does not mean better at ALL. It is an entirely dynamic scenario varying from model to model, designer to designer, driver to driver, application to application. One cannot generalize like that.

3 - Cabinet, driver material, crossover material does affect the sound quality. At least it would affect the durability - It affects a lot LOT LOT MORE than durability. A speaker can be -100% it's potential if it's crossed over without being given proper thought.

Cor,

I really wish I had your knowledge (technical knowledge) when it comes to audio equipment. Truth be told most of it goes over my head. I've learned the best way to decide is to go with my "ears" as I'm going to have to live with it... so as long as it suits my budget and I'm happy with the sound I buy this stuff.

 

[corElement]

Cor,

I really wish I had your knowledge (technical knowledge) when it comes to audio equipment. Truth be told most of it goes over my head. I've learned the best way to decide is to go with my "ears" as I'm going to have to live with it... so as long as it suits my budget and I'm happy with the sound I buy this stuff.

Lol the part below "yep" wasnt for you, it was for the previous post

but yes hearning is above all. Two branded speakers can have the same specs and same drivers but they can sound entirely different. I feel the technical things are best referred to when one finds a deficiency in something or when one wants to change something.

 

[Audio_Freek]

Lol the part below "yep" wasnt for you, it was for the previous post

but yes hearning is above all. Two branded speakers can have the same specs and same drivers but they can sound entirely different. I feel the technical things are best referred to when one finds a deficiency in something or when one wants to change something.

Cor,

Fantastic word you have used "Two branded speakers can have the same specs and same drivers but they can sound entirely different", this speaks thousand words

So the quality doesn't rely on the Cost or Brand, and only about the accurate design or termed as Physics& maths hyeah:and quality element used(Drivers,cross over)

Some of FM's could experienced "Low priced BS sounds better than the costly FS"

"Speakers are like girls" they may dress-up same and make-up equally.. but the originality can be reveled only its owned or married.. just kidding.. Most beautiful can also from Hut (quality speaker from small or unknown brand) also ugly girl shall be a millionaire (crap speakers from best brands in world with high price tag)

 

[Audio_Freek]

Have a good product and it will sell on its own... all the hype, the sales pitch is only to make it visible to the end user... from there on the individual's own "emotions" will take over and close the sale
.

MB,

As you are a copywriter, your post smells with professionalism.I loved these words "Have a good product and it will sell on its own... all the hype, the sales pitch is only to make it visible to the end user"

100% with you...The Internet made us very easy in selecting the best brand and equipment in market though some brands comes with wordings as " No 1 Audio system in the world"

Else we might have been cheated with "Big Cabinet\driver models" on their brand promotion

Internet act as "NET" for catching our fav fishes in the Audio gear sea..:clapping:

 

[theredcommando]

Well, emotional aspect and all is true and I agree with that 100%. Every post has been emphasizing that, specifically, OP has requested for some song or note which can highlight the difference between entry and costly equipment.
I was trying to point out some differences between costly and entry level speakers(apart from psychological aspect).

Those were general rules(there are deviations), of course validity depends on the design, and thats implied. Multiple drivers may not always mean good quality(but it has potential, that obviously does not mean local made FS would be better than Genelec BS). But having two drivers (say 5.25") for mid and low would improve the detailing without losing timbrel balance. FS would in general(and for normal user) would give best SQ overall(SPL, details, FR etc), though, for nearfield listening and imaging, its not ideal.
Value For Money is altogether a different matter. BS and FS would have similar VFM score, but if cost is no bar(and there is ample space etc), then I am quite sure that most audiophile would go for FS. Assuming that companies are investing and focusing enough on FS, in reality, there are not many potential buyers for FS.

PS - I am not comparing BS with FS as such when I say multiple drivers are better. But good BS with a subwoofer is still a 3 channel. This would definitely give better results than only BS.

 

[corElement]

But having two drivers (say 5.25") for mid and low would improve the detailing without losing timbrel balance.

Not if the crossover design was stupid! /troll hyeah:hyeah:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

But that's marketing for you. And my question is are the audio companies getting a bad rep only because this is an AV forum or do all of us really give a bad rep to everyone that deserves it outside of this forum. I think not... most of us have gotten used to it and carry on as if nothing is wrong.

Absolutely. From food products to high-tech, we should be aware of marketing, and try to separate out the bullshit. As you say, the professionals are so good at their trade, that some of this stuff is going to get past us however hard we try to stop it.

Any commercial activity is about profit. Without profit, it is going to die. Even the artist has to support his family. Take my "favourite" software company: I wouldn't mind so much if they had earned their monopoly position by the quality of their product, but they didn't: they "earned" it by aggressive marketing and aggressive business practices.

I have studied under some of the best marketing gurus in the world and also sat under the teachings of some of the best copywriters in the world...

Must remember to be careful when reading your posts :lol:

 

[S.P.KRISHNA]

Price goes high with demand. Demand goes high with cosumtion. Consumtion goes high with quality / its intrisinic value. If quality is not there no one will prefer it. The same truth will apply to AV stuff, may be 10% exception. In this scenario it is a misconception that costly items are not worth to their price. No one will prefer any thing that do not meet the quality or their expectations, exceptions are of a small percentage.

Regards

 

[pdhanwada]

Price goes high with demand. Demand goes high with cosumtion. Consumtion goes high with quality / its intrisinic value. If quality is not there no one will prefer it. The same truth will apply to AV stuff, may be 10% exception. In this scenario it is a misconception that costly items are not worth to their price. No one will prefer any thing that do not meet the quality or their expectations, exceptions are of a small percentage.

Regards

The stuff we discuss over here in forum is used by less than 5 % people. So this need not hold true.

For example pick up Ferrari for Millions of dollars, Demand is low but price is still high

 

[S.P.KRISHNA]

The stuff we discuss over here in forum is used by less than 5 % people. So this need not hold true.

For example pick up Ferrari for Millions of dollars, Demand is low but price is still high

I agree that audiophiles are about 5 % who spend on the audio gear and the manufacturers consider this 5% as their market and design their products and their cost as per their demand.

 

[alpha1]

Price goes high with demand. Demand goes high with cosumtion. Consumtion goes high with quality / its intrisinic value. If quality is not there no one will prefer it. The same truth will apply to AV stuff, may be 10% exception. In this scenario it is a misconception that costly items are not worth to their price. No one will prefer any thing that do not meet the quality or their expectations, exceptions are of a small percentage.

Regards

This doesn't hold true for luxury items:
Veblen good - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The higher the price, the more is the demand for these!
(Doesn't matter what is the quality or technical value etc of such item)

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The higher the price, the more is the demand for these!

When faced with a choice between two items, I'm am psychologically predisposed to the more expensive one. The cheaper one will leave me wondering what I am missing. Musicbee will probably be able to define this behaviour in marketing terms. I know it is a specific sales technique to focus on a lower cost item, leaving the customer to become more and more interested in the higher cost one. Not only am I susceptible to this --- but I've even done it myself from the other side of the counter!

There is another aspect to buying, though: the aspect of false economy. Words that stick in my head from some lifestyle/economy/whatever site (might have lifehacker) are, It is always cheaper to buy once. This has probably happened to all of us: we are faced with something that we really want, that is slightly beyond our budget. We force ourselves to "sensible" and to buy something cheaper, which only partly satisfies our need (and that need can include ownership experience as well as practical specifications). In a year or so, we are back at the shop buying that more expensive item. We have bought twice, not once, and, if we are talking hifi, cars, etc, the first purchase was a considerable waste of our money.

Probably, if hifi buyers were to obey the rule to buy once, there would be less upgraditis and more satisfaction. Perhaps, though, a little less fun