Expensive AVR vs Cheap AVR+Power amp

[navin advani]

Guys,

I tried searching this forum but got no thread that disussed this.

For the regualr Joe (I consider myself one) who uses a AVR for just 1 room would it more sense to get a cheap AVR plus an additional power amp instead of a more expensive AVR.

For example comparing the $1000-1200 Denon 3312Ci to the $600 Denon 1912 mated to a power amp from B&K (Reference 125.2), Rotel (RB1562) or Emotiva (XPA2) or even an old NAD C270, B&K ST140/202, Carver M1.0t or Adcom 545/555.

What do we loose in getting the lesser reciever be it Yamaha, Harman, NAD, Rotel, Denon, Marantz or Pioneer?

In the example above both AVRs have Airplay, MultEQ XT, HDMI 1.4 etc...

 

[darshanjoshi]

Guys,

I tried searching this forum but got no thread that disussed this.

For the regualr Joe (I consider myself one) who uses a AVR for just 1 room would it more sense to get a cheap AVR plus an additional power amp instead of a more expensive AVR.

For example comparing the $1000-1200 Denon 3312Ci to the $600 Denon 1912 mated to a power amp from B&K (Reference 125.2), Rotel (RB1562) or Emotiva (XPA2) or even an old NAD C270, B&K ST140/202, Carver M1.0t or Adcom 545/555.

What do we loose in getting the lesser reciever be it Yamaha, Harman, NAD, Rotel, Denon, Marantz or Pioneer?

In the example above both AVRs have Airplay, MultEQ XT, HDMI 1.4 etc...

The Biggest Problem with Entry Level AVR (Cheap) is that they dont have Pre-Out for attaching a Power Amp. Even Denon 1912 / Yamaha 671 which are Mid Level AVR does not have a Pre Out. So you cant attach a Power Amp.

Preout's with Denon starts with 3312 which itself is an expensive AVR. Even 2312 does not have Pre Out.

Pioneers 521 / 821 / 921 / 1021 does not have Pre Outs. Only 1121 has Pre Outs which is not available in India and is again Expensive.

Marantz Old Model 5005 AVR had Pre Outs but I think 5006 only has it for 2.1 and not 7.1. Yamaha Old Models like 667 and above also had Pre Outs.

Isnt it funny that AVR with less Power does not have Pre-Outs but High End AVR's has the Preouts?

 

[anm]

it is quite funny.
However, people going for cheaper AVRs are less likely to go for a separate amp, which itself it going to be quiet costly. Not sure how much would it cost to add a 2 channel pre-amp, or even 7.2

Instead, if companies make more processors at various price points, it would make sense.

 

[sound1]

Instead, if companies make more processors at various price points, it would make sense.

This is a very good point. Alternatively, how about HTPC > 5.1 ch sound card > 5ch power amp?

 

[s_sachin]

If this is for music using network capability of avr for source, will the avr dac be good enough for music ?

 

[GeorgeO]

Navin

I think an entry level AVR should do the trick for you, don't bother about the rest of it. These now come with more features than before,and for occasional Vs daily viewing should work fine,IMHO.

 

[spirovious]

Power amp is a choice for serious HT viewer.For average cinema viewer,entry level AVR with good 5.1 speakers can do the magic.

 

[anm]

Naveen - if you have to choose between the two, choose an expensive AVR that you are sure of very high quality. If you choose two compromised components, you would be left wanting for more. Plus an AVR would simplify your life a LOT in terms of rack space, connections etc. IF you feel the need later, than you can add more power to fronts with a stereo power amp, instead of 7 channel amp.

 

[navin advani]

Q

The Biggest Problem with Entry Level AVR (Cheap) is that they dont have Pre-Out for attaching a Power Amp.....I think 5006 only has it for 2.1 and not 7.1...

Excellent observation. I missed this one. I assumed all AVRs would have pre out at least for the front channels.

Mods where is the "I am an Idiot" smiley I could use one here.

Power amp is a choice for serious HT viewer..

Not nesscarily. Maybe I am old school (I count amongst my oldest friends Sushil Anand of Nova, Shyam Bajaj of Norge, and some others who have passed on...) but I find the power supply of even AVRs like the 3312, 6006, Aventage 1010, Pioneer Elite 53 etc... to be pretty flimsy.

In the end if the power supply cannot deliver the power to 7 channels the 7 channels are going to run out of power. I do not look at the published specs as most of these are done using a resistive load not a reactive load.

If you are using the AVR to drive 7 5" 2 way satellite type speakers yes it will suffice but if any of your speakers are larger (floor standing) you would be better of providing these larger speaker an amplifier that can drive them well. Why in fact some small bookshelf speakers (the original WATT - the one before the Puppy came out - comes to mind easiest) have their impedances vary from as high as 32 ohms (ok this was a Fs peak but you get my drift) to 1.5 ohms (yes the original WATT's impedance dropped below 2 ohms and it tested many a reputed power amp).

My AV system will have towers for the front. Hence my intention was to use a seperate 2 channel power amp for these towers thereby freeing up the AVR's "flimsy power supply" to manage the centers and small surrounds.

If this is for music using network capability of avr for source, will the avr dac be good enough for music ?

Sachin, most AVRs have a decent DAC. Yes Network capability is essential nowadays as is Airplay and a microphone based TA/EQ system that can correct for 7 speakers and 2 subwoofers.

In the days of 2 channel audio it was easy. With 8-12 channels of sound and many different speakers (most rear speakers are far smaller than front speakers and center channels) and subwoofers the listening experience can be enhanced (at least for movies and 5.1 DVD audio like live concerts) using Time Alignment and some EQ (these have been around in car audio for 5-6 years now).

I think an entry level AVR should do the trick for you, don't bother about the rest of it. These now come with more features than before,and for occasional Vs daily viewing should work fine,IMHO.

GerogeO, many thanks. However like Dashan Joshi said above the entry level AVRs do not have a pre out!

I do not need multizone features but many features like HDMI 1.4, Airplay, Network capability and a multi speaker TA/EQ system would be essential to have. Yes a DSP based TA/EQ system is not as good as the ear but atleast it ives you a good starting point after which one would need to tweak by ear to get the right sound. I assume the entry level AVRs at least offer you manual override to the DSP settings. Do they?

 

[anm]

This is a very good point. Alternatively, how about HTPC > 5.1 ch sound card > 5ch power amp?

htpc are good for people who can cope with a comp, OS, updates, drivers, virus etc. Not for ppl in general who just want to turn a switch and start listening to music.

 

[navin advani]

htpc are good for people who can cope with a comp, OS, updates, drivers, virus etc. Not for ppl in general who just want to turn a switch and start listening to music.

I agree. Someone I know stuck a PC into his car for his lossless audio, GPS, etc... despite a lot of effort and even good results he finally gave up and has moved to a old fashioned HU.

 

[anm]

check out NAD avrs. They are not high in features, but are good power wise. What I expect in an AVR is HD Audio decoding, decent number of hdmi inputs, possibly 2 outputs, pre-outs, FM, bass/ EQ management and lots of power. HDMI - 3D support, ARC. That's it.

All other networking/ internet radio/ streaming etc can be handled better by a media player (htpc). Since these are very fast moving and upgrade heavy features, it is better to keep them out of the expensive AVR.

 

[venkatcr]

Re: Q

Hence my intention was to use a seperate 2 channel power amp for these towers thereby freeing up the AVR's "flimsy power supply" to manage the centers and small surrounds.

Be aware that even if you use a separate amplifier for the front two channels, internally, the AVR will NOT send the unused power to the other channels. If a AVR says 50 watts per channel, you will get only 50 watts on each channel, whether you use one or all of them.

Cheers

 

[darshanjoshi]

Re: Q

Be aware that even if you use a separate amplifier for the front two channels, internally, the AVR will NOT send the unused power to the other channels. If a AVR says 50 watts per channel, you will get only 50 watts on each channel, whether you use one or all of them.

Cheers

I have read a lot of reviews where people claim they are using 2 Power Amp for the Fronts so that the load on the AVR becomes less and they can use AVR for Center and Surrounds. How does the load on Amp becomes less if less channels are used ?

eg. Denon AVR-2311CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

Here 7 Channels Power Per Channel is lesser compared to when 5 Channels are used.

Please enlighten us with some more details. Thanks.

 

[audiodelic]

As far as i know there is a particular size transformer in an avr so when you use 2 channels say stereo all the power from the transformer goes to these two channels. When you use 7 channels then the power is divided so the load changes and power to each channel becomes less.

Im sure venkat can explain better.

 

[navin advani]

Naveen - if you have to choose between the two, choose an expensive AVR that you are sure of very high quality. If you choose two compromised components, you would be left wanting for more. Plus an AVR would simplify your life a LOT in terms of rack space, connections etc. IF you feel the need later, than you can add more power to fronts with a stereo power amp, instead of 7 channel amp.

ANM our posts must have crossed since I usually post inbetween phone calls, email, etc...

Ok lets look at the basics.

Which is the cheapest sounding AVR (I like my sound sorta laid back so the warmest one would be what I'd look at) that has the following:

1. Front channel (2.2, 5.2, 7.2 etc...) pre out (thanks again Dharshan)
2. Airplay (Does Airplay use Bluetooth?)
3. Network capability (does this mean I can connect the AVR to the Internet and play music of some Cloud?)
4. EzSet-EQ/YPAO/MCACC/MultEQ XT or similar DSP based (with manual override) TA/EQ system for 2 independant subwoofers.

Pioneer VSX-2021? Marantz 5006 ? Yamaha Aventage 810? Onkyo 709? Integra 40.3?

 

[navin advani]

check out NAD avrs. They are not high in features, but are good power wise. What I expect in an AVR is HD Audio decoding, decent number of hdmi inputs, possibly 2 outputs, pre-outs, FM, bass/ EQ management and lots of power. HDMI - 3D support, ARC. That's it.

My original budget included $1000-1200 models like the Onkyo TX809, Yamaha RX-A1010, Denon 3312Ci, Pioneer VS-X2021 / SC-LX55...

A 7.2 channel NAD T757 would push this to $2000 and compete with the Harman AVR 760, Denon 4311, Arcam AVR400, Onkyo TX3009, Pioneer LX85, Rotel RSX-1550, Yamaha A2010....oh this is getting good...:yahoo:

Plus an AVR would simplify your life a LOT in terms of rack space, connections etc. IF you feel the need later, than you can add more power to fronts with a stereo power amp, instead of 7 channel amp.

Sure I could. In fact we are looking at 2 AV systems. One for the living room and one for the bedroom.

In the bedroom we wont need 7.2. 5.1 will be enough and rack space is limited so your idea would suit us there.

the AVR will NOT send the unused power to the other channels. If a AVR says 50 watts per channel, you will get only 50 watts on each channel, whether you use one or all of them.

I have read a lot of reviews where people claim they are using 2 Power Amp for the Fronts so that the load on the AVR becomes less and they can use AVR for Center and Surrounds..

As far as i know there is a particular size transformer in an avr so when you use 2 channels say stereo all the power from the transformer goes to these two channels..

Exactly.

The PS of most AVRs is limited in it's power delivery so it is not the amplifier channel that is the limiting factor but the PS cannot deliver 100W x 7 channels with the ease that it would deliver 100W x 5 channels. A seperate stereo power amp such as those listed earlier (B&K, NAD, Adcom, etc..) would put the power where you need it most (front left and right) when you need it most (more critical audio use vs less critical HT use).

 

[rishiguru]

Re: Q

Not nesscarily. Maybe I am old school...but I find the power supply of even AVRs like the 3312, 6006, Aventage 1010, Pioneer Elite 53 etc... to be pretty flimsy.

In the end if the power supply cannot deliver the power to 7 channels the 7 channels are going to run out of power. I do not look at the published specs as most of these are done using a resistive load not a reactive load.

If you are using the AVR to drive 7 5" 2 way satellite type speakers yes it will suffice but if any of your speakers are larger (floor standing) you would be better of providing these larger speaker an amplifier that can drive them well. Why in fact some small bookshelf speakers (the original WATT - the one before the Puppy came out - comes to mind easiest) have their impedances vary from as high as 32 ohms (ok this was a Fs peak but you get my drift) to 1.5 ohms (yes the original WATT's impedance dropped below 2 ohms and it tested many a reputed power amp).

Very well put navin advani. Now a days low to mid tier receivers have such ludicrous power outputs claims, with those tiny power supply sections it sometimes makes me think these receivers defies the laws of physics.

I seriously think these low end receivers should always be paired with 8 ohm speakers. A few days ago fusebulb complained his Denon 1612 AVR was going to thermal shut down mode just by pairing with KEF Q500 floorstanders at mid to high volumes.

I personally believe weight of an amp is agood indicator of its real power output capability.

Be aware that even if you use a separate amplifier for the front two channels, internally, the AVR will NOT send the unused power to the other channels. If a AVR says 50 watts per channel, you will get only 50 watts on each channel, whether you use one or all of them.

Are you certain about this? Coz i am not.

Can you kindly elaborate how the receiver controls these 50 watts max per channel.

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[ranjeetrain]

The solution to this is to buy a decent AVR, one with a hefty power supply and one with a good measured performance, to begin with. An AVR has this ability to distribute the power as required. A high instantaneous current AVR will be able to handle surges in demand from difficult to drive speakers, such as floor-standers as against satellites.

AVR prices these days are dirt cheap for what they do. From a financial point of view, it is better to invest in a better overall AVR than an entry level AVR plus a power amp. From a performance point of view, a mid-high end AVR will deliver better than an entry level AVR plus a power amp. Mid-high end AVRs also come with better DACs and better overall circuitry.

My personal opinion is that in such circumstances I will invest in a better overall AVR.

 

[anm]

The solution to this is to buy a decent AVR, one with a hefty power supply and one with a good measured performance, to begin with. An AVR has this ability to distribute the power as required. A high instantaneous current AVR will be able to handle surges in demand from difficult to drive speakers, such as floor-standers as against satellites.

AVR prices these days are dirt cheap for what they do. From a financial point of view, it is better to invest in a better overall AVR than an entry level AVR plus a power amp. From a performance point of view, a mid-high end AVR will deliver better than an entry level AVR plus a power amp. Mid-high end AVRs also come with better DACs and better overall circuitry.

My personal opinion is that in such circumstances I will invest in a better overall AVR.

very well put. That's what I wanted to say. Instead of adding up two low end equipment, get one very good no (lesser) compromise product where everything is top quality.