Expensive AVR vs Cheap AVR+Power amp

Hey guys,

Pardon my ignorance, but what does the pre-out functionality do ? What I gathered from the posts, is that it is used for front 2-channel sound. Can any of our pals elaborate on this. Are we supposed to add another amplifier with the existing AVR with the pre-out facility ? And how does it help, do we get a larger and crisper sound through the fronts ?

Which AVR's are available from the Yamaha / Denon stable below the Rs. 26,000 mark apart from yamaha RXV 667.

-- JAYANT.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but what does the pre-out functionality do ?

I hope you know how amplification works. A pre-amplifer converts inputs signal to roughly 2 volts. This input signal in then sent to the power amplifier that feeds the speakers.

Some models of AVRs have the facility of feeding the output of the pre-amplifier both to the power amplifier, and to a set of connections at the back called pre-outs. The pre-outs are simply the 2 volts output of the pre-amplifer. Using RCA connectors, you can feed these pre-outs to any external amplifier of your choice.

Why do you want to do this? You may not like the amplifier sound....you may need more power... you can feed the fronts to a two channel amp your are used to for listening to music.....you may have difficult speakers that need more power....

Cheers
 
Naveen, I agree with your view point on having a avr pre-power combo, for power YES, but not for quality (compared to similar priced avrs). By adding a power amp you will definitely get more power for front channels and can use the avr amp for center channel or surrounds duty.

But the problem is the pre which is used in the entry level AVRs, it will not be equal to the high priced avrs and the pre will play a major role in getting good quality sound. So you need to take a call on these by checking the best out of these options.

I would suggest you to try a second hand processor or Emotiva UMC1 and DIY power amps or good 5 channel amp (may be slightly expensive than the avr+2 channel power amp combo) but you will get good\decent (but far better than the 2 other options) quality and power at the same time.
 
Interesting discussion. I went the pre pro + 5 channel power amp route myself. I built an 5 channel power amp using Class D Hypex modules, and use an Emotiva LMC 1 preamp processor, which I might upgrade in the near future.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but what does the pre-out functionality do ?

A pre out allows one to connect external power amplifiers (hey I wish AVRs came with pre out / power in options as well but I dont know any that do - does anyone here?) so that you can add more power to a system or in some cases if you do not like the sound of the power amp section you could add a power amp (like say a tube power amp) to the system.

Tubes - now that is a whole different topic. We'll get to that later wont we? :licklips:

Naveen, I agree with your view point on having a avr pre-power combo, for power YES, but not for quality (compared to similar priced avrs). ...But the problem is the pre which is used in the entry level AVRs, it will not be equal to the high priced avrs

Emotiva UMC1 and ..5 channel amp...

Pioneer VSX-2021 vs LX75
Yamaha Aventage 810 vs 2010
Onkyo 709 vs 1009
...
BTW are the price on the link below real? Denon 3312 for 650 pounds?
http://www.hifix.co.uk/Home-Cinema-Amplifiers asc

Audioholics lists the 2112 at $650 and usually what costs $650 in the US costs 650 punds in the UK na?
http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/how-to-shop/2011-600-a-v-receiver-comparison-guide

I'd take a Marantz at 440 pounds and mate it to a 200W stereo amp for $400 (see the Crown at Parts Express).
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=245-502

Which 5/7 channel power amp do you have in mind? Anything under $1000?

Interesting discussion. I went the pre pro + 5 channel power amp route myself. I built an 5 channel power amp using Class D Hypex modules, and use an Emotiva LMC 1 preamp processor, which I might upgrade in the near future.

GeorgeO I am seriously considering the UMC-1 with 7 channel of power. Can I fit this into $1500 or so? The UMC 1 alone runs $500. The only option would be to get 7 modules like the ASKA 100 or ILP modules for say $100 each (I dont want any chip aka 3886, 7294 based amps). The only modules I know in this price range are the PM2 from Marchand.

I considered everything from DIY of Eliiot Sound Project 101 (I dont have the time) to companies like Pascal
Project 101 - High Power, High Fidelity MOSFET power amplifier
http://www.pascal-audio.com/downloads/X-PRO-Series_Datasheet.pdf

Becasue this option was so diffcult (budget wise) I was comparing a $5-600 AVR and $5-600 stereo power amp to a $1000-1200 AVR from the same stable (to keep things equal) for example the Yamaha A810 vs the A2010 or the Denon 1912 vs the 3312 or the Onkyo 609 vs the 1009.

This way I could mate a Pioneer VSX-2021/Marantz 5006/Yamaha Aventage 810/Onkyo 709/ something that had the features I needed to a stereo power amp and put the power where one needs it (front left and right) instead of in all 7 channels.
 
Last edited:
hey I wish AVRs came with pre out / power in options as well but I dont know any that do - does anyone here?

You can look at this specific model that comes with pre out / power in options : Yamaha DSP-Z11

Weighs 34 kilos. Now you decide whether you need even more power for the left & right channels.:)

30724605.jpg
 
Last edited:
Navin

I dont know enough to comment on ILP, I have an AKSA 55N, which is pretty good. If the 100w modules fit within your budget then I wouldnt think twice about it. The issue with the Hypex modules is that the power supply board that I use only supports 5 channels, you need to figure out the 7 channel build.The amp itself is really good. Cost of 5 channels was about $1000, so 7 channels will probably push it over budget.
 
z11 is quite an old model and doesn't have hdmi 1.4. look for yamaha A3010 or older A3000
A3000 was a VERY sweet deal during black fri on newegg. unfortunately it was so heavy that getting it via aramex etc was negating the cost advantage to a very large extent. And I did not know anyone who would carry such a heavy item for me.
 
I dont know enough to comment on ILP, I have an AKSA 55N, which is pretty good. If the 100w modules fit within your budget then I wouldnt think twice about it. The issue with the Hypex modules is that the power supply board that I use only supports 5 channels, you need to figure out the 7 channel build.The amp itself is really good. Cost of 5 channels was about $1000, so 7 channels will probably push it over budget.

I have used ILP modules in the 80s.

I could not find a price for the ASKA 100 module.

My best option hence was the Marchand PM-2A which is $100 each fully assembled. If was to get the Emotiva UMC -1 I'd need 7 PM-2A. If one adds the cost of power supply and chassis (Rs. 15K) one would be looking at a cost of $1000 for the power amp. Add the Emotiva and you get a AVR cost of $1500 + time spent building the power amp.

If one replaced the PM2A with 3 ASKA 100 and 4 ASKA 55 modules or 7 ESP P101 (Project 101) one would have a power amp for $1500-1700 (ESP 101 is a bit cheaper). Add $500 for the Emotiva and one get a total cost $2000-2200 + time spent.

I thought about it. I realised that an AVR already has 7 channels of power albeit with a skimpy power supply. I dont need 100W for the rears (4 of the 7 channels). If I get a 200W stereo amp for $500 or less and a AVR that has all the features of the UMC-1 for $600-800 for $1100-1300 I could get a combo that would do what I need.

Question are:
is the Crown XLS 1500 amp linked earlier advisable for home audio
and which is the cheapest AVR that has the features I would need.

a. Pre outs for at least 2.2 channels to feed the subwoofers and front channels
b. Airplay
c. YPAO-RSC/MCACC/MultEQ XT or similar DSP based Time Alignment and Equalization
d. HDMI 1.4 with pass through
e. Network capability (we can use a media server for this)


From what I understand:
Marantz 5006 has 2.2 pre out
Onkyo 709, Denon 3312Ci and Yamaha A810 have 7.2 pre out
Pioneer 2021 and LX55 are not clear - the specs mention 9.1 pre-out when the AVRs are 7.1/7.2??
 
Last edited:
Checked aksaonline, and looks as if their prices are going to above the budget.The 100wpc modules are 1420 whereas the 70 wpc unit is 870-with the $Aus almost eqaula to US$, currently.
 
for every watt we have at the speaker terminals we are probably consuming 3W at the power cord.

...you forgot that Transformers also convert energy into heat so we have more losses there too.

Exactly.

If we consider the case that there are heat losses from all sides be it transformer, power transistors not to mention this watt is travelling through out the PCB and all the soldering, joints & ultimately reaching the speaker terminals the ratio becomes :

Power required : Power generated :: 3:1

A big transformer and big power supply is not guarantee of good sound. Powerful sound yes; but "good" sound No. THis thread is only discussing power not good but since you bought this up....

True.

But a big transformer supplemented with enough capacitance will definitely provide much clear watts at high volumes. The amp will clip less on upper reaches, have much better dynamic headroom & distortion will be minimal.

Objectively, better THD & dynamic headroom means better sound, i.e. sound quality.

But if we quantify sound quality from a subjective point of view it is a different ball game altogether.:)
 
is it correct that...

1. a low/mid level avr and a high level AVR will both sound the same upto a particular sound level...? ( ie upto mid volume levels )

2. and it's only at mid + and high volume levels that a high level AVR sounds better ?
 
Last edited:
Re: Q

Very well put navin advani. Now a days low to mid tier receivers have such ludicrous power outputs claims, with those tiny power supply sections it sometimes makes me think these receivers defies the laws of physics.;)

I seriously think these low end receivers should always be paired with 8 ohm speakers. A few days ago fusebulb complained his Denon 1612 AVR was going to thermal shut down mode just by pairing with KEF Q500 floorstanders at mid to high volumes.

I personally believe weight of an amp is agood indicator of its real power output capability.



Are you certain about this? Coz i am not.

Can you kindly elaborate how the receiver controls these 50 watts max per channel.

Thanks in advance!!!


Rishi, I support your statement of wt being an indicator of power of an amp 100%!! Nearbout 75% weight is transformer and another 15% are heatsinks.So weight is directly proportional to power.On the original argument, if you have a 50w pc 5.1 avr and you connect only two( fronts for ex) and blast it, the load on power supply especially if it is mid ( read flimsy!) range, becomes lesser than all 5.1's blasting and the supply rail drop becomes lesser.possibly resulting in somewhat better power output from the two connected speakers....in my logic this is the only plausible explanation..but as I said, in my logic...because if the power supply has a hefty torroid with a lac of microfarad ( read good quality!!) filters, then connecting all 6 or just 2 will not make a difference a size of a gnat!
 
Naveen,

You can use Yamaha RX series AVRs (665 and 667). These AVRs have:

1. Features (HDMI/YAPO/3D etc...)
2. Stereo and 7.2 PreOut
3. "Pure mode" where AVR would not apply any "enhancement" to audio
4. $250 -$500 Price point :)

E.G:

RX-V667 - RX - AV Receivers - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

I am using RX-V665. It overstates the power in specs, but its a good AVR because of Pre-Outs.
 
Last edited:
I would suggest UMC1 + XPA-1 + Norge 1000\any model (for surrounds), Else you can try amp modules on ICE modules \ Hypex modules or a basic AVR (may be second hand) for the surrounds along with the XPA-3 for FL-C-FR
 
Naveen,

You can use Yamaha RX series AVRs (665 and 667). These AVRs have:

1. Features (HDMI/YAPO/3D etc...)
2. Stereo and 7.2 PreOut
3. "Pure mode" where AVR would not apply and "enhancement" to audio
4. $250 -$500 Price point :)

E.G:

RX-V667 - RX - AV Receivers - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

I am using RX-V665. It overstates the power in specs, but its a good AVR because of Pre-Outs.


Are you using any power amp for L&R and center? Thou it is said under powered avrs require high sensitive speakers it is not really true.I feel if they are underpowered ,they are sure underpowered for all types of speakers. I have to really crank up the volume up to neck to be able to get the output I like from my yamaha with Monitor 7s. Seriously thinking to add a power amp for L&R.


Here is a list of things I have tried before writing the above.

1) YPAO & Manual setup both
2) Decibel settings (played around quite a bit)
3) Multiple speaker cables with plugs and without
4) Source - Flac to Blu-ray
 
Kittu,

I was in the same boat as you are and after a lot of thinking, I added a 2ch power amp (and decent interconnect) to my Yamaha AVR.
Now the mid/high tones sound more liquid, way cleaner and less sibilant. Before the tones were sort of smeared together, now they are separate and distinct.
Even bass has much better slam and for the fist time I can hear minute bass textures.
As a pleasant surprise, system now responds much better to EQ (yeah, I use EQ :p)

Not trying to exaggerate, but the difference is like day and night. You should give it a try...

EDIT: And don't use YPAO. Even if you use it, before starting calibration choose 'FLAT' instead of 'NATURAL'.
 
Last edited:
Buy from India's official online dealer!
Back
Top