Finally figured out what the deal with DACs is.
- Thread starter ShutterX
- Start date
not sure of the quality of your prior dac, in terms of diff with the new one. but be rest assured that theres a huge difference in sq on a mid-high end system when you use a better quality dac
koushik
Well-Known Member
I thought you said this ...
Anyway, that doesn't matter any way. The things which matter is quality. The Chinese are cheap and US are costlier, always, and you thought it is for no reason?
Components available in mouser, partsconexion, digikey and costlier than Chinese counterparts for no reason?
audiodelic
Well-Known Member
Cant really comment on how much difference will be there but it give it time. DAC sound grows on you and soon you should start getting that better defined bass, little refinement in treble, mid range becoming more natural sounding if the SML is better in than Modi.
If there is some other weak link in the chain limiting then can't say. I personally thought cable talk was all snake oil but recently bought some used hi end ic's from the hfv sale section and I'm loving the sound, minor but very important change in sound much less fatigue over long sessions.
If there is some other weak link in the chain limiting then can't say. I personally thought cable talk was all snake oil but recently bought some used hi end ic's from the hfv sale section and I'm loving the sound, minor but very important change in sound much less fatigue over long sessions.
koushik
Well-Known Member
+1 .. often changes in system goes unnoticed during the initial hearings. After spending sometime with the new one, if you go back to the older one, then you will vividly understand the change - better or worse.
I get it. But isn't that the placebo effect? Rather than actual change. Honestly i can hear the difference moving from onboard to a mid level DAC. But how much better 'for real' can it get with a 2000$ dac? I have never heard one. So can't tell. I can only guess as of now.
I thought you said this ...
Anyway, that doesn't matter any way. The things which matter is quality. The Chinese are cheap and US are costlier, always, and you thought it is for no reason?
Components available in mouser, partsconexion, digikey and costlier than Chinese counterparts for no reason?
Well. yes, I think its better you check out the video i have shared below. Irrespective of what they put in it, if it sounds good and lasts long, what does it matter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFOd9p-6oZc
I really love this guys videos. Down to earth and practical reviewing which normal users can understand.
put a $100 dac on a high end system. and then put on a $2000 dac. and you will hear the difference
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
regeHA
Well-Known Member
More likely than not, No.
Not if like in post no 1 on thread
ciao
gr
You will always hear a difference, no doubt about it. Even a cable change makes a perceptible difference in sound signature or sound quality (maybe both).
Whether you like what you hear or not is a different matter.
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Provided the "my speakers are not placed properly!" is not applicable, surely you do not mean in spite of that
ciao
gr
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Actually, this sort of thing is very common with me. I hear all this rave (raving) feedback from various sources about how good something sounds and I go in with a lot of expectations thinking this will change my world. When it actually happens the difference is often so subtle as to be non existent and then I go - WTF are they talking about!! This has happened tons of times with me. If you complain about not feeling the earth move then you will have someone saying how your equipment is just not good enough or "resolving" enough for you to hear the difference. The reality is that these days the law of diminishing returns kicks off much much early. An example: I recently heard a $15 Class D amp paired with a $25 tube pre-amp (ebay stuff) and then heard exactly the same upstream/downstream equipment with the amplification replaced with a $1000 integrated amp. To my ears there was a small difference with the edge going to the eBay Chinese stuff. Maybe that makes me and my ears non audiophile but that's the way it often is for me.
Edit: the only exception that I found to which the above is not applicable, IMO are speakers. If I were to advise someone on buying equipment it would be to buy inexpensive but decent sounding electronics BUT to buy the best sounding speakers that they can afford.
Edit: the only exception that I found to which the above is not applicable, IMO are speakers. If I were to advise someone on buying equipment it would be to buy inexpensive but decent sounding electronics BUT to buy the best sounding speakers that they can afford.
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regeHA
Well-Known Member
The placebo effect is real you know, people do get healed when taking sugar pills instead of real medicine. Call it faith or mind power, but numerous scientific studies have shown that the placebo effect is real and that it works.
The law of diminishing returns is pretty much spot on for anything priced over $3500-$4000. Pretty much anyone can achieve audio Nirvana for life with equipment in that price range. Any spending over that amount will only bring in incremental upgrades, and obviously there will always be folks willing to go that extra mile.
However, my contention is with "not hearing the difference". Everything makes a difference, either in sound quality, soundstage, sound signature, tone, detail (hearing or not hearing instruments), etc. This is easily evident and heard in pretty much any setup, even $50-$100 computer speakers.
Folks claiming to not hear any difference is untrue IMHO. Maybe they do not like what they hear or the additional spending is not worth the ROI, that I can understand. However, my experience has taught me that even the minutest change in equipment always results in a change in the sound itself. This is also true for video (totally unrelated in this context).
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
The next time I'm going to keep telling myself that there is a difference and maybe the more I say it the universe will conspire to make it so (The Secret). 
BTW, what has price got to do with it? That's another of my pet peeves - but that is discussion for another place and time.
BTW, what has price got to do with it? That's another of my pet peeves - but that is discussion for another place and time.
My thoughts exactly. I makes sense that physical speakers which are involved with mechanical energy and physical sound waves. I dont get it when people say stuff like you have to spend most money on your DAC. IMO, dac is a functional slave in the music chain. Just for converting digital signal to analogue accurately and without interference.
I follow a youtuber reviewing speaker and amps. always found the stuff he said making sense. Until he started raving about how he got a 400$ USB cable which makes sound warmer. Honestly, I called bull on that. Diminishing returns start quite low with DACs, from my limited experience.
Its not about not hearing a difference (i speak only of DACs). No one denies that difference is pretty clear when it comes to speakers, amps, headphones, etc. But do people really see differences in tone and lows and highs? I find there is a difference in accentuated highs and better dynamic range. How can a dac do all that if its doing what its supposed to do... simply taking digital and converting to analogue while being loyal to the source material.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
I see and hear people rationalizing [justifying?] to themselves & others [it's called a "review" :indifferent14:] after a purchase why they bought a certain high priced piece of equipment with explanations like wide soundstage and/or pinpoint imaging and/or the improved texture of bass and yada yada and I go - Ooooookaaaayyyyyy!!!.
Honestly, if one uses more than one term to describe frequencies [high/mid/low], I tune out! But, that's only me and I'm sometimes glad I'm not like "them" because imagine if I could hear the miniscule differences - I would have wasted good money in the quest to hear the minutiae. I'd rather put my money to good use - like buying cigarettes and alcohol. Now, enough of insulting other people - over and out!
Honestly, if one uses more than one term to describe frequencies [high/mid/low], I tune out! But, that's only me and I'm sometimes glad I'm not like "them" because imagine if I could hear the miniscule differences - I would have wasted good money in the quest to hear the minutiae. I'd rather put my money to good use - like buying cigarettes and alcohol
. Now, enough of insulting other people - over and out!
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sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
The DAC to me, is what I guess a cartridge is to a vinyl buff. It is where it all happens. And the "loyalty" stuff too.
I have several crappy DACs and a couple of decent ones at home. If i were blindfold and hung upside down (that's an insane twist on a DBT
) I am positive I can tell them apart. Bring out the thumbscrews and i am saying no different.That would be at home. I may/ not be able to elsewhere, because while my system is by no means expensive or esoteric, I have invested thought and care in positioning my speakers, trying to fix the horror that is my room and so on. Without that , IMHO you are listening to two speakers, some electronics and the room you are in, not music, at any rate not music that is "reproduced true to the source" etyadi.
Now, but of course if you are happy with what you have, more the power and force to you
if you are not there are several - cheap, easy things you can try to improve. better etc. There is lots of very useful and informative stuff here on hfvIt is ofc entirely possible that you already, and may have indeed implemented all of this.
I should also add, the differences between the small sample of DACs I have are subtle but definite. However they are apparent even to an indifferent listener (ie the type who really don't care if it were blaring off a temple ke baahar wala bhonpoo type speaker or something somewhat more expensive and hifi).
To those who want to listen, there is a lot more. If you want to believe that I am deluding myself, please be my guest. I know what I am buying next when upgraditis strikes is a DAC, sue me or smirk, I'm good either way
ciao
gr
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keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Big of you to admit that because not many here would have.
The DAC to me, is what I guess a cartridge is to a vinyl buff. It is where it all happens. And the "loyalty" stuff too.
I have several crappy DACs and a couple of decent ones at home. If i were blindfold and hung upside down (that's an insane twist on a DBT
That would be at home. I may/ not be able to elsewhere, because while my system is by no means expensive or esoteric, I have invested thought and care in positioning my speakers, trying to fix the horror that is my room and so on. Without that , IMHO you are listening to two speakers, some electronics and the room you are in, not music, at any rate not music that is "reproduced true to the source" etyadi.
Now, but of course if you are happy with what you have, more the power and force to you
It is ofc entirely possible that you already, and may have indeed implemented all of this.
I should also add, the differences between the small sample of DACs I have are subtle but definite. However they are apparent even to an indifferent listener (ie the type who really don't care if it were blaring off a temple ke baahar wala bhonpoo type speaker or something somewhat more expensive and hifi).
To those who want to listen, there is a lot more. If you want to believe that I am deluding myself, please be my guest. I know what I am buying next when upgraditis strikes is a DAC, sue me or smirk, I'm good either way
ciao
gr
I guess id have to agree. Correct me if i am wrong: ceteris paribus,
Crappy DAC vs Cheap DAC = clear difference
Cheap DAC vs Mid level DAC = Slightly less difference
Mid level DAC vs High level DAC = even less difference + placebo effect
High level DAC vs Insane super expensive DAC = minor perceivable difference + lots of placebo juice
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