Finally figured out what the deal with DACs is.

[sound_cycle]

Anything will do left and right. That is not the goal. at all, if you want the stereo illusion (yes it is an illusion ofc), your brain will maange more.

Let me elaborate a bit.

My father got me a National Panasonic RX5100T when I was in Class VII or VIII. It had a sticker that claimed 10W RMS stereo, hydraulic opening and what not.

For years I believed that I was hearing stereo and that this two in one was better than the Philips wala "sleeping" casette player it replaced.

Pure rubbish of course.

Neither of them produced stereo sound.

One just happened to have an extra speaker.

Years later I spent what was a **** load of my money then on buying a Sony component system. This time around I could put the speakers properly apart, and I did but nothing happened. (This one would have probably done stereo if I had setup correctly*)

I have not found a properly setup system in my auditioning. I have not had people tell me that my setups was pure crap (and it was pure crap or worse!!!) when I did not have it all dialled in.

Having two speakers, some electronics and no stereo happening is I guess all too common.

ciao
gr

* interesting idea. I should see if i can get them to do that, will bring them down from the loft someday

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

...Then LEDR test. You were right. Basic imaging is ok. L and R is no issue. then separation is good. But the tones that are supposed to sound from above the Speakers are not coming from there. Same is the case with the sound that's supposed to arch over from one speaker to another. ... ... ...

The LEDR tests are specially encoded/recorded. They do not reflect what you can expect from ordinary music. Engineers may give us clever clues, but there is no up/down or forward/backwards control on a mixing desk. Such details are illusions formed in our minds, just as when we read a work of fiction. And they are just as valid tools for musical enjoyment.

My desk speaker setup is like listening in a cupboard. Acoustically it is absolutely hopeless. But, the LEDR tests do work for me!

 

[afj]

i think we can all agree that there is some level of improvement when using a better dac. and i think as sound cycle put it, as you go higher diminishing marginal returns kick in. it all depends on the listener on whether its worth paying the extra amount for the increase (whether small or large) in SQ. as you go for a better dac, its the refinement and the neutrality and the balance that one looks for. its definitely small nuances that one hears. and each to their own to decide whether its worth spending the extra buck (or thousand) for those nuances

 

[ShutterX]

i think we can all agree that there is some level of improvement when using a better dac. and i think as sound cycle put it, as you go higher diminishing marginal returns kick in. it all depends on the listener on whether its worth paying the extra amount for the increase (whether small or large) in SQ. as you go for a better dac, its the refinement and the neutrality and the balance that one looks for. its definitely small nuances that one hears. and each to their own to decide whether its worth spending the extra buck (or thousand) for those nuances

I think that just about sums up the whole tread.

 

[Robert Bose]

Dear Members

I have experience with 3 DAC over last 3 years each of which I used

for 6 months minimum and other two I still have and

using since more than a year.

Source is OPPO BD93

Music is 44.1 Flac 95% time and some 96/24 Files

Recording : Music is mostly very well recorded instrumental Jazz from

ECM Label

Speakers are set 1 JBL TI series 3 Way

and Yamaha NSM1000 3 Way Set 2

Preamp Hafler and Power Amps Yamaha M80 Onkyo 5030

The Most critical thing is the recording done in Capturing the music

second thing is all DAC need 100-150 Hr burn In

Cable to match the system is required

Decent interconnect costing Rs 2K per meter cable is minimum required

First DAC was WM8741 based Audio GD NFB 5.3 fed from oppo spdif

Initially the direct output of oppo internal DAC sounded much

better than SPDIF Coaxial thru Audio GD

after 6 Months use switching between the 2 revealed some distortion

at high recorded level on the Oppo Direct output

the Audio GD OP Amp buffer was changed from OPA 2134 to OPA 2107

and then OPA 627 ( all genuine sourced from Farnell ) each change

increased the Quality, finally replaced the Audio GD with ESS9018 based

DAC from Anedio DI, other things in chain remained same

Comparing the two, the Anedio had better Treble extension and detail

and midrange resolution was easily made out and could be heard in

5 -10 minutes of listening, the DAC was also on Brighter Side and

did not sound pleasant on recordings done a very high level

now almost 1.5 year after starting the change it sounds nice and

sold Audio GD to a friend, finally Audio GD opamp buffer was changed

from OPA 627 to LME49990 sourced from Cimmaron Brown Dog

the sound changed Radically and became more dynamic

and resolution also improved, compared to ESS 9019 based Anedio

the Anedio was still better but by a smaller margin than before,

lastly around 2 months back for headphone listening and playback from

USB using Foobar 2000 ASIO Driver I got CEntrance DAC mini.

played thru Hafler Preamp, Onkyo M5030 Power and Yamaha NSM 1000

with Lovely Cube Headphone Amp and Philips SHP9000

Initially the sound was harsh, etched, unnatural, overly detailed

lacking in base, this is AKM 4396 based I think, not opened yet

for tweaking, after 2 months use, sound has considerably improved

Resolution is good upto mid treble, for high treble 9018 is better

but the etched un natural sound is gone

I am starting to enjoy it with Foobar using the ASIO driver

my point is there are very clear differences between DAC

easily made out in 5 minutes, they all have different strengths

Musical feeling is there in 8741, when well implemented,

resolution /detail is less than 9018 well implemented ( 4 linear power supply

voltages etc ), AKM series has more resolution and high freq energy than

8741 Audio GD, but my DAC has yet to reach its optimum level

having much improved over last 2 Months

in ESS 9018 Anedio, adding 2 nos 10 microfarad Tantalum 35 V capacitors

directly on the power supply pins of the output opamp which was a

BB OPA, made an improvement to the sound, even high end products can

be tweaked a bit, mid range can be tweaked even more

and each tweak can be very much heard, having said that, the internal DAC

in oppo 93 is still pretty good, it is a 4398 Cirrus with Signetics 5532.

these are my observation over 2 years time, short term conclusions cannot

be made, like comparing in shop for 10 minutes

also the source program quality needs to be good, try Patrica Barber

Cafe Blue, this recording has everything, dimension, resolution,

bandwidth, dynamics, to test any system, if you dont have good quality

source material you wont hear the difference

Robert Bose

 

[sound_cycle]

I think that just about sums up the whole tread.

Almost.

Did you get your rig to allow you to experience the stereo illusion.

The bit that was missed out in the summary was that without careful placement, room treatment and/or correction the game is over before it has begun. You cannot have stereo goodness.*

The goal of this DAC business and the quest for good sound has a necessary and all important first step. It does not (necessarily) need fancy equipment

ciao
gr

* if you room is well proportioned and large enough you might get by. Applies to speakers only ofc, the headphone boys dont share this pain

 

[ShutterX]

Almost.

Did you get your rig to allow you to experience the stereo illusion.

The bit that was missed out in the summary was that without careful placement, room treatment and/or correction the game is over before it has begun. You cannot have stereo goodness.*

The goal of this DAC business and the quest for good sound has a necessary and all important first step. It does not (necessarily) need fancy equipment

ciao
gr

* if you room is well proportioned and large enough you might get by. Applies to speakers only ofc, the headphone boys dont share this pain

Honestly, the 'true stereo' that you described might not happen for me because of the small room size. Will transfer setup to the living room and see once. So as of now, i makes do with what i gots! But when i play Nils Lofgren, those Infinities sing.

Try it on your system. Its a youtube vid but always sounds lovely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6_B1AB9nu8&index=13&list=PLaDlIe-ZjfqshtsImzukqTeO9xPLf1aUv

Ow and yes. Must get myself more forgiving headphones these M50s are brutal. Open back this time.

 

[sound_cycle]

Try it on your system. Its a youtube vid but always sounds lovely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6_B1AB9nu8&index=13&list=PLaDlIe-ZjfqshtsImzukqTeO9xPLf1aUv

Oh *&%^ ! ! !

Loved it.

TFS

ciao
ge

 

[shibashis]

A good DAC will improve the sound and one will be able to perceive it if the system is capable of reflecting that improvement. That is how simple it should be, sadly it does not look like it is.

A case in point:
-----------------

For more than one year I used a simple Fiio E07K USB DAC to play my music, it was a small and yet wonderful device. Improved the SQ to great smoothness and finesse from my previous Asus Xonar U3. Music started flowing, Instruments gathered life and everything was great in my world.
My Usher V601 along with Adcom GFA 545 MK II are quite capable equipment by my reckoning. Then one day a fellow member gave me a call and advised to invest in a good DAC and promised the sound would 'change completely'. I was happy but this is a world where you like to go higher up.
Lots and lots of research and headache of importing and customs duties later I had Emotiva Stealth DC-1 plugged in my chain, that is a $500 DAC and Emotiva promises this can take on DACs many times its price. Now I have been let down at certain instances before where the improvements promised were not delivered. A couple of hours into the new equipment's life in my system I realized, almost like an epiphany that there was no going back. It was not disbelief but it was fact that what I was hearing was better, so much better than what Fiio could do.
I did not deign to figure out what a 'DAC' is, instead I heard what a good DAC can do.

Believe me I had the same question in mind, how higher can you push the ceiling? Around the same time there was much talk among us hifivians from Kolkata about Schitt's flagship Yggdrasil (mind you that is a $2299 DAC). We all did our reading and saw people in the know claiming that the Schiit outshines DACs as high as $3500 range or even higher. One wonders and so did I, how much of an improvement could there be going higher and higher, is it a fool's errand after all?

Then just last Sunday there was a meet at FM Koushik's place and a mini DAC-shootout of sorts. The players were my Emotiva and a Benchmark DAC 2L, and a diy DAC.
Now the Benchmark is a $1800 DAC, could people tell the difference? There were 6 of us, everyone of us could tell the DACs apart. While the differences perceived varied from one individual to another, there was no argument toward the fact there were differences, from subtle to significant, the unanimous opinion was that Benchmark just made it sound better. Soundstage was more pronounced, it seemed that along with width and depth it gained the height as well, nothing was holding the artist back, tonally instruments mimicked more real life than a recording. The Benchmark won the day as expected and Emotiva came close, but none of us were in doubt that each DAC had different attributes on offer, whether you like it or not is a different question.

I would not call myself a seasoned audiophile, most in that gathering were not either but again the differing sound from different DACs was very apparent to all of us.

In going back to the very first post, a DAC can change how your music will sound, it can make it better or worse, it can improve the mids, make the low go deeper or sustain longer, can make the highs airy or make them shrill or make them just heavenly, can absolutely make Lata Mangeshkar sing in person in your room if you have the right harmony among your equipment.

Take it from me, we are not talking about ghosts that one can question if all those ghost-stories and alleged sightings are true or not, as far as DACs go their significance is a fact in the digital music reproduction business.

 

[raghupb]

Got Schiit-Audio Modi-2-Uber. My digital music collection got a fresh lease of life.
FLAC and MP3s are sounding really good.
I don't know much about musical signatures of different equipment.
But I do know when my music collection sounds good to my ears.

I use foobar2000 (on laptop) as primary player and an ASUS box as secondary player.

Digital chain:
foobar2000 --> USB --> Modi-2-Uber
ASUS O!Play --> Optical --> Modi-2Uber

Pre-amp/Amp/Speaker chain
Marantz PM7001 --> Outlaw M2200 --> BW DM303
Marantz PM7001 --> BW DM303
Outlaw OSB1 Soundbar (surprisingly now even this sounds better for music)

Aside from this I also got Outlaw BTR-100 for enabling BT on Marantz PM7001 and Outlaw OSB-1

Cost:
Modi-2-Uber $149 + ($15 shipping and taxes)
BTR-100 $39 + ($8 shipping and taxes)

Items were carried by a friend visiting from US.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[panditji]

Got Schiit-Audio Modi-2-Uber. My digital music collection got a fresh lease of life.
FLAC and MP3s are sounding really good.
I don't know much about musical signatures of different equipment.
But I do know when my music collection sounds good to my ears.

I use foobar2000 (on laptop) as primary player and an ASUS box as secondary player.

Digital chain:
foobar2000 --> USB --> Modi-2-Uber
ASUS O!Play --> Optical --> Modi-2Uber

Pre-amp/Amp/Speaker chain
Marantz PM7001 --> Outlaw M2200 --> BW DM303
Marantz PM7001 --> BW DM303
Outlaw OSB1 Soundbar (surprisingly now even this sounds better for music)

Aside from this I also got Outlaw BTR-100 for enabling BT on Marantz PM7001 and Outlaw OSB-1

Cost:
Modi-2-Uber $149 + ($15 shipping and taxes)
BTR-100 $39 + ($8 shipping and taxes)

Items were carried by a friend visiting from US.

Cheers,
Raghu

I heard the Schiit Modi and it is a fantastic DAC for it's price..I am assuming the Uber version should be even better.... I would recommend the Schiit Modi to everyone with a budget of upto Rs. 50K .. Fantastic product....

 

[raghupb]

Modi-2-Uber has USB/Coax/Opt (16/44.1 to 24/192 on all inputs; some exceptions)
Modi-2 has only USB (16/44.1 to 24/192)
Uber provides more flexibility in terms of sources.
Don't know about the internals (Chips, etc). As long as it sounds good, don't want to know.

Tried both USB and Opt. They sound really good. Needed to download and install Windows drivers for USB operation though.

As Panditji puts it, fantastic product at the price point.

Cheers,
Raghu


Cheers,
Raghu

 

[sound_cycle]

A good DAC will improve the sound and one will be able to perceive it <snip> Soundstage was more pronounced, it seemed that along with width and depth it gained the height as well, nothing was holding the artist back, tonally instruments mimicked more real life than a recording.<snip>a DAC can change how your music will sound, it can make it better or worse, it can improve the mids, make the low go deeper or sustain longer, can make the highs airy or make them shrill or make them just heavenly, can absolutely make Lata Mangeshkar sing in person in your room if you have the right harmony among your equipment.

I find myself completely in agreement with what you said (though my range of DACs does not extend to anything really pricy).

Whatever I have read and understood, is that DACs can and do change your experience of your music. They are not however supposed to "change how your music will sound", as by design they are meant to be neutral and "close to the record sound" ie not attempting to color your sound.

What is interesting is that you reach that conclusion after having compared three DACs in the same setup.

My experience was somewhat different I had measured two DACs for DRC and initially used the same correction on them.

In the process I found that I had to tweak the positioning a bit, for the Bifrost (detail in the highs is nicer, shimmerier). (I had posted this previously) I've (necessarily) subsequently redone the measurements for the new arrangment, but not for both DACs. For all I know that discovery might improve how the older DAC sounds (and i don't want to know that )

I find that Shifting position (that is ofc obvious, the sweet spot is small), drawing a curtain (simple non obvious things) can also make changes. It is fun figuring it out

ciao
gr

 

[shibashis]

Well I did not intend to imply that a DAC should introduce colouration in music, what I meant was that a good DAC in the chain can substantially improve what the listener will hear as against to no DAC being present or an entry level DAC.
Stating the obvious here.

 

[sound_cycle]

Well I did not intend to imply that a DAC should introduce colouration in music

I should have found myself completely in agreement with what you said earlier.

ciao
gr

 

[Kevian]

Nice...very informative thread..

 

[shibashis]

I should have found myself completely in agreement with what you said earlier.

ciao
gr

Sir you and I have been agreeing a lot since you got your Schiit and me my Emotiva. :lol:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Then just last Sunday there was a meet at FM Koushik's place and a mini DAC-shootout of sorts. The players were my Emotiva and a Benchmark DAC 2L, and a diy DAC.
Now the Benchmark is a $1800 DAC, could people tell the difference? There were 6 of us, everyone of us could tell the DACs apart. While the differences perceived varied from one individual to another, there was no argument toward the fact there were differences, from subtle to significant, the unanimous opinion was that Benchmark just made it sound better. Soundstage was more pronounced, it seemed that along with width and depth it gained the height as well, nothing was holding the artist back, tonally instruments mimicked more real life than a recording. The Benchmark won the day as expected and Emotiva came close, but none of us were in doubt that each DAC had different attributes on offer, whether you like it or not is a different question.

Unlike the hardline objectivists, I do respect your sighted experience --- but still, I'd love to know if the same people came to the same conclusions in a blind, level-matched test.

And no, I never actually did that either

 

[regeHA]

Unlike the hardline objectivists, I do respect your sighted experience --- but still, I'd love to know if the same people came to the same conclusions in a blind, level-matched test.

And no, I never actually did that either

Hey Thad,

My contention from the start has always been that people will hear a difference, for better or for worse, well that is subjective and a hugely personal thing. Take me for example, I have never ever heard a KEF speaker that has sounded bad to my ears, and I doubt that I ever will. Maybe it is a love for the brand, their technology, or maybe based on the number of KEF speakers that I have owned over the years.

However, when folks tell me that they went from no DAC to a $200 DAC or from a $200 DAC to a $2000 DAC, and do not hear a thing differently, well that is not possible. Pretty much everything introduces a change in the chain. In fact, most of everything has to do with reducing or eliminating that change, be it reducing the vibrations, the resonance, the feedback, etc.

 

[keith_correa]

Then just last Sunday there was a meet at FM Koushik's place and a mini DAC-shootout of sorts. The players were my Emotiva and a Benchmark DAC 2L, and a diy DAC.
Now the Benchmark is a $1800 DAC, could people tell the difference? There were 6 of us, everyone of us could tell the DACs apart. While the differences perceived varied from one individual to another, there was no argument toward the fact there were differences, from subtle to significant, the unanimous opinion was that Benchmark just made it sound better. Soundstage was more pronounced, it seemed that along with width and depth it gained the height as well, nothing was holding the artist back, tonally instruments mimicked more real life than a recording. The Benchmark won the day as expected and Emotiva came close, but none of us were in doubt that each DAC had different attributes on offer, whether you like it or not is a different question.

Shibashis, can you please let me know which DIY DAC this was that participated? I'm curious. Also I'm really intrigued by your statements about the Benchmark DAC - about width, depth and height of sound. I always thought that these were functions of the speakers and crossovers. Your statements are proving this premise incorrect. Now I'm wondering - what is it that the DAC is throwing out which is causing these shifts in perception? Can this even be measured?