Finally figured out what the deal with DACs is.

[regeHA]

BTW, what has price got to do with it? That's another of my pet peeves - but that is discussion for another place and time.

Why ever not?

Not everything expensive justifies its price tag, but surely the more expensive something is, the better the components wouldn't you say?

Its not about not hearing a difference (i speak only of DACs). No one denies that difference is pretty clear when it comes to speakers, amps, headphones, etc. But do people really see differences in tone and lows and highs? I find there is a difference in accentuated highs and better dynamic range. How can a dac do all that if its doing what its supposed to do... simply taking digital and converting to analogue while being loyal to the source material.

No disagreement here, my point all along has been that you will perceive a difference with any change in the chain. Obviously not always for the better, but music and sound itself is so subjective who can say what's better or worse?

I guess id have to agree. Correct me if i am wrong: ceteris paribus,

Crappy DAC vs Cheap DAC = clear difference
Cheap DAC vs Mid level DAC = Slightly less difference
Mid level DAC vs High level DAC = even less difference + placebo effect
High level DAC vs Insane super expensive DAC = minor perceivable difference + lots of placebo juice

This kind of generalisation only reeks of being anti-brand or even anything remotely termed audiophile. Not a good place to be coming from.

BTW, I have heard super expensive DACs (just not the ones costing as much as a Ferrari) and the difference is huge. Even a mid-fi Rega makes a huge difference, something from the Naim family even more so.

PS - No you have not figured out what the deal with DACs is.

 

[sound_cycle]

I guess id have to agree. Correct me if i am wrong: ceteris paribus,

Crappy DAC vs Cheap DAC = clear difference
Cheap DAC vs Mid level DAC = Slightly less difference
Mid level DAC vs High level DAC = even less difference + placebo effect
High level DAC vs Insane super expensive DAC = minor perceivable difference + lots of placebo juice

if you have not set up your speakers all is moot.

BTW whether it is cars, bicycles or any of ten million things that diminishing return pyramid applies. So besides what seems to be broad generalization, do you have any basis for what you is placebo or crap besides opinion, and snark.

If this is to be a discourse on what you think is right and nothing more, well it is your thread and I have nothing further to say. That however does not mean I agree with your sub line. At all.

ciao
gr

 

[ShutterX]

if you have not set up your speakers all is moot.

BTW whether it is cars, bicycles or any of ten million things that diminishing return pyramid applies. So besides what seems to be broad generalization, do you have any basis for what you is placebo or crap besides opinion, and snark.

If this is to be a discourse on what you think is right and nothing more, well it is your thread and I have nothing further to say. That however does not mean I agree with your sub line. At all.

ciao
gr

This is what I understand from my 'limited' experience. something that makes sense to me. I am probably skeptic about what advantages I would hear between a Naim my 100$ DAC (If i had some lovely high end tower/amp system) playing highly mastered DSD tracks. The only way to convert an unbeliever is actual proof

I would love to audition a setup with an expensive DAC.

And yes. My sub line should be 'Finally figured out what the deal with 100$ DACs is.

 

[sound_cycle]

This is what I understand from my 'limited' experience. something that makes sense to me. I am probably skeptic about what advantages I would hear between a Naim my 100$ DAC (If i had some lovely high end tower/amp system) playing highly mastered DSD tracks. The only way to convert an unbeliever is actual proof

I would love to audition a setup with an expensive DAC.

And yes. My sub line should be 'Finally figured out what the deal with 100$ DACs is.

What you got perfectly right in your first post is that DACs are meant to be neutral and uncolored.

In that thread starter post you bring in an assumption that "'audiophile' hype that having a good DAC makes soooo much difference" (Post # 1) and by post 40 have emphatically said QED DACs make little or no difference, case closed.

At the moment it all only seems like wish fulfillment, with no figuring out of anything happening.

Even with the substantially reduced scope of subline (Post # 43) you are probably stiill very wrong

Allow me to explain that, you have lot more to gain sonically and in enjoyment of your music from setting up your rig correctly. In post 1 you state that you have not positioned your speakers (the same from this thread?) correctly. Now that's a game cannot start thing. I looked and to see if you have put up a system / set up pic or description on hfv but did not find any. Maybe you should set up things right, let it play for a while, and then settle down for some listening and comparision with your older DAC etc.

To be sure I do not "know", but I think that there is a very high probability that you are not set up right. The first thing I have noticed in my experimentation with DACs is a difference in the soundstage.

If you are not getting that maybe you should also set about figuring out if you have finally figured out what the deal with stereo is.

ciao
gr

 

[keith_correa]

Allow me to explain that, you have lot more to gain sonically and in enjoyment of your music from setting up your rig correctly. In post 1 you state that you have not positioned your speakers (the same from this thread?) correctly. Now that's a game cannot start thing. I looked and to see if you have put up a system / set up pic or description on hfv but did not find any. Maybe you should set up things right, let it play for a while, and then settle down for some listening and comparision with your older DAC etc.

To be sure I do not "know", but I think that there is a very high probability that you are not set up right. The first thing I have noticed in my experimentation with DACs is a difference in the soundstage.

If you are not getting that maybe you should also set about figuring out if you have finally figured out what the deal with stereo is.

ciao
gr

Agreed!! You can have the best gear money can buy but you can be certain of one FACT. The room is going to mess everything up unless of course your listening room is anechoic.

 

[bornfi]

Agreed!! You can have the best gear money can buy but you can be certain of one FACT. The room is going to mess everything up unless of course your listening room is anechoic.

And that is the reason i trained myself to listen at low volume to have less of room interaction.

 

[sound_cycle]

And that is the reason i trained myself to listen at low volume to have less of room interaction.

Interesting.

I listen to the same low volumes before and after treatment/ DSP.

How/ why do you think room effects, say early echoes, are a function of volume ?

ciao
gr

 

[bornfi]

Interesting.

How/ why do you think room effects, say early echoes, are a function of volume ?

ciao
gr

Well I cannot debate scientifically but yes, that is the reason why at same volume level a floorstnder sounds different than a bookshelf. Isn't volume at amp related to amount of air moved by speakers (sound pressure)?

 

[sound_cycle]

Well I cannot debate scientifically but yes, that is the reason why at same volume level a floorstnder sounds different than a bookshelf. Isn't volume at amp related to amount of air moved by speakers (sound pressure)?

Ummmm why are moving from "And that is the reason i trained myself to listen at low volume to have less of room interaction" to bookshelf vs floor standing speakers, just what does that have to do with your premise that low listening volumes mitigate room effects ?

But just to take that deflect why would a sound wave from a floor stander or a bookshelf or a dog clicker behave any different ?

There is no need for any debate on this. the speed of sound (in a given situation) stays the same regardless of source. or volume. A 5ms early reflection will trash your listening pleasure regardless of volume.

I guess your room and placement etc are very good to begin with and therefore your listening room is not getting in the way.

For the record, listening at low volume does NOT mitigate room effects. It is not a replacement or substitute for room treatment or DSP etc.

ciao
gr

 

[jls001]

For example bass boominess in a room could be low (as not to be bothersome), or even unfelt, at low to regular listening levels, whereas it can become irksome as one turns up the volume. The nature of the room reflections hasn't changed, but how we perceive it changes with volume.

 

[ShutterX]

What you got perfectly right in your first post is that DACs are meant to be neutral and uncolored.

In that thread starter post you bring in an assumption that "'audiophile' hype that having a good DAC makes soooo much difference" (Post # 1) and by post 40 have emphatically said QED DACs make little or no difference, case closed.

At the moment it all only seems like wish fulfillment, with no figuring out of anything happening.

Even with the substantially reduced scope of subline (Post # 43) you are probably stiill very wrong

Allow me to explain that, you have lot more to gain sonically and in enjoyment of your music from setting up your rig correctly. In post 1 you state that you have not positioned your speakers (the same from this thread?) correctly. Now that's a game cannot start thing. I looked and to see if you have put up a system / set up pic or description on hfv but did not find any. Maybe you should set up things right, let it play for a while, and then settle down for some listening and comparision with your older DAC etc.

To be sure I do not "know", but I think that there is a very high probability that you are not set up right. The first thing I have noticed in my experimentation with DACs is a difference in the soundstage.

If you are not getting that maybe you should also set about figuring out if you have finally figured out what the deal with stereo is.

ciao
gr

I took a picture of my desk right after reading this post. I have attached it for you to see. I live in a small house and cannot place speaker stands, give the rear ports 10 inches breathing space, etc. Having said that, I do not believe that there is any issue with imaging, since I sit, dead center a meter away from this desk. My gear is in no way 'high end' and in fact quite the opposite, barely 'audiophile.' I also use my headphone (M50). i use CDs or flac files is do these tests. I guess you could that I dont have much left to understand basic stereo sound. Please feel free to comment on how this should suffice for a simple DAC appreciation session.

Now coming to post 40. I guess there is some discrepancy in understanding. When I said little or no difference, I meant the delta of perceivable real world difference as compared to a DAC of a lower level. My question is how much difference is it to the average Joe? Do you have to be a 'high end audiohphile' to understand the difference? If you have a 500$ DAC, iam sure its got the best components/innards/whatnots and you get great sound. How much better can the 2000$ DAC do? Would the average joe be able to perceive the delta?

Anyone can tell the difference between the acceleration of a 150cc bike vis a vis a 300cc bike. Strap someone on to a 800cc and then a 1300cc, they will just say that both of them are crazy fast (diminishing returns). You really have to be a seasoned rider to understand the difference. Something like this.

Now dont get me wrong. I dont want to offend the folks here who have the 2000$ DACs. I am just here to learn.

 

[sound_cycle]

For example bass boominess in a room could be low (as not to be bothersome), or even unfelt, at low to regular listening levels, whereas it can become irksome as one turns up the volume. The nature of the room reflections hasn't changed, but how we perceive it changes with volume.

Not really.

I have a 23.5 x 11.5 room. I almost never have the amp over 9 (and most of my listening is late at night when everyone is asleep, no one has been ever bothered by my music). I was fine with listening to say "Sweetest Taboo" (Sade) or "Jersey Girl" (Holly Cole). Today (post treatment and DRC) what was acceptable all these years is as desirable as listening to a dhakdhakadhak boom box yukt share auto. I just played those tracks and son walking past wanted to know what went wrong. (He is now asking me why can't I listen to music, the boy cant stand Holly Cole)

ciao
gr

 

[sound_cycle]

Having said that, I do not believe that there is any issue with imaging, since I sit, dead center a meter away from this desk. My gear is in no way 'high end' and in fact quite the opposite, barely 'audiophile.' I also use my headphone (M50). i use CDs or flac files is do these tests. I guess you could that I dont have much left to understand basic stereo sound. Please feel free to comment on how this should suffice for a simple DAC appreciation session.

First the bad news. To my completely non-expert brain, the possibilty of getting a decent stereo image seems remote, if not virtually impossible. (i do not mean sound stage ie simple right vs left stuff). To me, the speaker separation is just too limited, and you are in a noodle porridge of early reflections (desk, wall on RHS etc) for any imaging to be perceptible.
From the goodnewsdept
But then you are so near field that maybe it works, for you. For a start you can try the LEDR tests and figure out if you get the up and over to work. Or play a track like say Young Folks (Peter and Bjorn), how many distinct points do you hear. I recollect TEG post saying that the LEDR thing worked at his desk.

To my mind imaging is not a magical property that only "expensive" "audiophile" speakers alone can possess. In fact old expensive equipment that altered phase (for eg parametric equalizers) ruin imaging (this readsay, I've not owned one). It is how you set them up. I am not black magic certified and use inexpensive commonly available things like string*, laser pointers and a mic to get it right. There are others who manage to do it all by ear alone, I cannot. Regardless of method when "locked in" your ears will let you know. The pleasure centre in your brain will not let you miss it.

I meant the delta of perceivable real world difference as compared to a DAC of a lower level. My question is how much difference is it to the average Joe? Do you have to be a 'high end audiohphile' to understand the difference? If you have a 500$ DAC, iam sure its got the best components/innards/whatnots and you get great sound. How much better can the 2000$ DAC do? Would the average joe be able to perceive the delta?

Throwing superlatives like night or day or chalk and cheese won't be meaningful. I have a mid level DAC going at the moment. The difference from the decent one I have in my amp is mindblowingly apparent. Even a non interested listener (a hearer ?) perceived it instantly. Both are in turn so different from a Fiio D03 that is not funny (side story the only time I felt i wasted money on a DAC was with the 2.5K I paid for the D03). I also have DACs in my TV, PS3, WDTVlive and various comps. The sound stage, imaging, and detail going up the price ladder has always been a pleasant and real grain. It is not like Rafi going Wakaw main main hoon in chand mera dil has the moon shining. But he is now not a point source, but more chesty and shouldery, the violins (why o why did they use so many of them) are not graty. (see this kind of subjective stuff is not very useful, therefore you are welcome to drop by for a demo, if you honestly think it is all placebo I'll listen to to kumar sanu going kuch na kaho for 12 hours non stop)

Anyone can tell the difference between the acceleration of a 150cc bike vis a vis a 300cc bike. Strap someone on to a 800cc and then a 1300cc, they will just say that both of them are crazy fast (diminishing returns). You really have to be a seasoned rider to understand the difference. Something like this.

I've read of 50 cc bikes that can render pants smelly and unwearable. I've had a 350cc that you could hold a burning candle till you reached 70 kmph because it was so koffkoff quick. My 220FI is still quite quick. The 390 or the twin 300 that i am looking at are scary quick. I don't have the skills to handle a litre class (or the money). The point of getting into this motorcycle para was to say it is not speed and acceleration but how you deliver it, how tractable that power really is. And the diminishing return thing does not apply More to the point I've had to spend some time figuring out these different machines and getting to like and love them, warts and all. The DACs too suprise you after you've settled with them for a while.

Now dont get me wrong. I dont want to offend the folks here who have the 2000$ DACs. I am just here to learn.

I would love to get a chance at listening to the Gumby. Yggy is out of reach, but I've read good things (and not so flattering things too)


* audiophile quality acoustic string

 

[panditji]

I too did not believe much in expensive DACs and was certain the laws of siminishing returns would kick in at about Rs.30,000... In fact I bought my first DAC last year from Merdian Audio.. Was quite happy with it until I had a DAC shootout at my place and when competing against NAD M51, M2Tech Young and others I got to know the limitations of my DAC...

Yes, there are subtle changes as one goes up in the chain but the differences are there...But when you can't make out the differences then you put a full stop and latch on to what you have.. However the DACs can only show differences when you have resolving speakers...It is better to have very good speakers and a mid level DAC rather than the other way around...

 

[sound_cycle]

I do not believe that there is any issue with imaging, since I sit, dead center a meter away from this desk

A few links that may be useful to read


How To Create Your Own Mixing Sweet Spot | The Recording Revolution


How To: Position Desktop Speakers | Kirkville

enjoy your listening

ciao
gr

 

[sound_cycle]

.It is better to have very good speakers and a mid level DAC rather than the other way around...

After buying a house with a livi(steni)ng room that is a tube, I'd say It is even better to have a room that meets the requirements of audio.

I have pushed my arrangement to the max (of my ability and beyond for sure, DRC ki jai), there is no way I can get a an arrangement with about 8 feet behind my ears, though I have the length for it, I don't have the width.


(to be honest, it was not a consideration and i did not have the gyan (and ofc the moolah) to do any different. But if I ever do this locate place, sweat and save, sell and manage to move, a third time, I am looking only at audio requirements and top floor place, baki sab bakwaas (These kabutar khaane wale 2.5/ 3bhk flat rooms really screw it up badly for sound. They also really irritate by having long beamless floor slabs that resonate horribly when children thump across upstairs all day. Worse, very limited remodelling possible because of pipes and wiring wherever you look to break a wall etc- ofc all that is a separate rant)


ciao
gr

 

[panditji]

It is more expensive to invest in a room of your choice... Better to invest in really good pair of speakers and then try and make it work unless the money supply is unlimited...

 

[ShutterX]

First the bad news. To my completely non-expert brain, the possibilty of getting a decent stereo image seems remote, if not virtually impossible. (i do not mean sound stage ie simple right vs left stuff). To me, the speaker separation is just too limited, and you are in a noodle porridge of early reflections (desk, wall on RHS etc) for any imaging to be perceptible.
From the goodnewsdept
But then you are so near field that maybe it works, for you. For a start you can try the LEDR tests and figure out if you get the up and over to work. Or play a track like say Young Folks (Peter and Bjorn), how many distinct points do you hear. I recollect TEG post saying that the LEDR thing worked at his desk.

Once again right after reading this post, I acted. I tried out the Young Folks (Peter and Bjorn) on youtube. It sounded good to me (as simple as that). Then LEDR test. You were right. Basic imaging is ok. L and R is no issue. then separation is good. But the tones that are supposed to sound from above the Speakers are not coming from there. Same is the case with the sound that's supposed to arch over from one speaker to another. But yes, there is no reflection delay even at high volumes. Low end is nothing great. But with my DIY woofer foam jugaad, what to expect? Perhaps testament to the goodnewsdept.

To my mind imaging is not a magical property that only "expensive" "audiophile" speakers alone can possess. In fact old expensive equipment that altered phase (for eg parametric equalizers) ruin imaging (this readsay, I've not owned one). It is how you set them up. I am not black magic certified and use inexpensive commonly available things like string*, laser pointers and a mic to get it right. There are others who manage to do it all by ear alone, I cannot. Regardless of method when "locked in" your ears will let you know. The pleasure centre in your brain will not let you miss it.

Once again, the brain training itself is key here iam sure. This locking is present for me. Balanced imaging the most, width of sound stage a little less (although i could clearly make out the difference between the sound stages of my M50 and a friends HD598). Separation maybe not that much. Perhaps because this is my first ever 'Hifi' setup.

Throwing superlatives like night or day or chalk and cheese won't be meaningful. I have a mid level DAC going at the moment. The difference from the decent one I have in my amp is mindblowingly apparent. Even a non interested listener (a hearer ?) perceived it instantly. Both are in turn so different from a Fiio D03 that is not funny (side story the only time I felt i wasted money on a DAC was with the 2.5K I paid for the D03). I also have DACs in my TV, PS3, WDTVlive and various comps. The sound stage, imaging, and detail going up the price ladder has always been a pleasant and real grain. It is not like Rafi going Wakaw main main hoon in chand mera dil has the moon shining. But he is now not a point source, but more chesty and shouldery, the violins (why o why did they use so many of them) are not graty. (see this kind of subjective stuff is not very useful, therefore you are welcome to drop by for a demo, if you honestly think it is all placebo I'll listen to to kumar sanu going kuch na kaho for 12 hours non stop)

Ill hold you to that. Next time I am in Hyd, ill take a gander at your setups. Then these placebo notions can be quashed. Only then!

I've read of 50 cc bikes that can render pants smelly and unwearable. I've had a 350cc that you could hold a burning candle till you reached 70 kmph because it was so koffkoff quick. My 220FI is still quite quick. The 390 or the twin 300 that i am looking at are scary quick. I don't have the skills to handle a litre class (or the money). The point of getting into this motorcycle para was to say it is not speed and acceleration but how you deliver it, how tractable that power really is. And the diminishing return thing does not apply More to the point I've had to spend some time figuring out these different machines and getting to like and love them, warts and all. The DACs too suprise you after you've settled with them for a while.



I would love to get a chance at listening to the Gumby. Yggy is out of reach, but I've read good things (and not so flattering things too)


* audiophile quality acoustic string

Yes through the progressing on the thread, the DAC is growing on me. Mostly in the speakers, not that much the M50s. Maybe its my brain going 'audiophile' slowly'

 

[sound_cycle]

It is more expensive to invest in a room of your choice... Better to invest in really good pair of speakers and then try and make it work unless the money supply is unlimited...

My point being that it will NOT work.

If you don't have a (reasonably well sized and proportioned) room that is good for audio or put in the treatment / active correction to make it work, you might as well as not bother.

The DAC, speakers, cables and what have you cannot defeat the room. Ever

ciao
gr

 

[sound_cycle]

Once again right after reading this post, I acted. I tried out the Young Folks (Peter and Bjorn) on youtube. It sounded good to me (as simple as that). Then LEDR test. You were right. Basic imaging is ok. L and R is no issue. then separation is good.

Ummm no. Soundimage is more than just the L-R separation. Maybe I did not put it clearly enough. Let me try again.

Anything will do left and right. That is not the goal. at all, if you want the stereo illusion (yes it is an illusion ofc), your brain will maange more.

If you did not get the over test to arc gracefully and evenly in over or extend beyond the speaker in lateral (LEDR tests), the illusion is not working for you.

Young folks will give you five distinct points in your soundstage, you get it, you have set it up right.

If you have strong early reflections that are > -10db, within 15 ms or so you CANNOT have the illusion to work. That is the physics of it. That is the psychoacoustics of it. Your brain cannot make sense of that early reflection yukt mush and create a three d illusion for you. If you do get that my friend, would probably be placebo .

How can you figure out if you have early reflections within 15ms without a mic ? Simple. all you need is some thread and high school futta. See that calibrated audio string link I included in an earlier post for explanation. It cannot tell you whether the reflection from that surface within 15ms is 10db down that will need a mic, but you can still see if you have a problem at all. And if you do you have to do something about it.

Once you have that sorted out, then you want your soundimage to have height and depth and extract greater detail. I cannot get that with my electronics. I understand that the multi bit Yggy does that very well. And someday i hope to get one ... (it is wildly out of (sane) reach)

ciao
gr

edit: I don't know if you had to biology in school. If you did you might recall that for a while you did not see nucleii or chromosomes in your Allium cepa slide,all your mates put up their hand and said "got it" but all you could see was an eyelash. Then one lab class you got that microscope focussed and set up right and there was the moment of magic, where it became completely clear that the digrams in your textbook were not created by aliens high on LSD and that it was all there in plain sight for you to see, your friends were not cheating. The first time it works for you it is kind of dramatic. A singer "appears" in your room kind of dramatic.

I know you wrote that it sounded good to you. Ofc that is all what matters. I typed out this stuff just to try and show you that there is probably more which you should be able to derive, with your equipment, without necessarily spending any money on it