Finally figured out what the deal with DACs is.

[keith_correa]

However, when folks tell me that they went from no DAC to a $200 DAC or from a $200 DAC to a $2000 DAC, and do not hear a thing differently, well that is not possible. Pretty much everything introduces a change in the chain.

If people are telling you that then they are delusional. You're right in saying that everything causes the sound to change. Now, the MAGNITUDE of the change - that's a different matter altogether.

 

[sound_cycle]

<snip>width, depth and height of sound<stage>. I always thought that these were functions of the speakers and crossovers. <snip>Now I'm wondering - what is it that the DAC is throwing out which is causing these shifts in perception? Can this even be measured?

Provisional answer (I am figuring things out, therefore)

The imaging is to my mind not (as in primarily or solely) a function of the speakers.

To be sure speakers matter, but even a cheapda set of speakers can still deliver a convincing image. (in xy but not z ???)

The electronics matter. It is all about preserving phase. I have read that parametric equalizers alter phase and therefore are not good for imaging.

The biggest factor is where you are seated in the room and what the room is doing to destroy it (bole to imaging), and ofc what is done to mitigate it.

Two channel stereo will produce a convincing image (a/k/a) the illusion only for a fairly small sweet spot. In my set up, that is about fits one person me. (I don't share and nobody at home cares). AFAIK it cannot be much wider (T/F ?)

The material, ie how it is recorded more than format, is also very important. I have a recording (on the Chesky audiophile disc) which is supposed to give you a sense of the height of the cathedral where the choir performed Te Deum. I don't get it. Another is supposedly "Meeting by the River". I have both in VBR off itunes. To my mind it the DAC which I will change first to examine. It would be worthwhile to get speakers with fewer drivers too (no that is not a contradiction of sentence 3)

ciao
gr

 

[saheb11123]

Shibashis, can you please let me know which DIY DAC this was that participated? I'm curious. Also I'm really intrigued by your statements about the Benchmark DAC - about width, depth and height of sound. I always thought that these were functions of the speakers and crossovers. Your statements are proving this premise incorrect. Now I'm wondering - what is it that the DAC is throwing out which is causing these shifts in perception? Can this even be measured?

At that shootout the diy dac was the latest akm verita ak4490 delta-sigma dac with cm6631a usb receiver, this dac can do 192k 32bit. Its basically a 20k ish diy dac.

 

[keith_correa]

At that shootout the diy dac was the latest akm verita ak4490 delta-sigma dac with cm6631a usb receiver, this dac can do 192k 32bit. Its basically a 20k ish diy dac.

Which I think would be the same as the tech used in the Bifrost, right? How did it perform?

 

[saheb11123]

Yes you are right. But I have worked with diyinhk boards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

However, when folks tell me that they went from no DAC to a $200 DAC or from a $200 DAC to a $2000 DAC, and do not hear a thing differently, well that is not possible.

I wouldn't say it is impossible, but yes, of course, it is perfectly possible. I have written elsewhere about recently auditioning an expensive-compared-to-what-I-have DAC and finding the sound not only different, but not suiting me at all and it had to go back. It was an >$800 DAC.

If people are telling you that then they are delusional. You're right in saying that everything causes the sound to change. Now, the MAGNITUDE of the change - that's a different matter altogether.

everything? That is where the audiophoolery starts, but it is that sort of conversation that resulted in my becoming just an occasional visitor to this site, and I won't follow it up.

But magnitude is the thing, and it is has been known for night and day changes to vapourise when people do not know what they are listening to, or for those as-expected results to suddenly turn out turned upside down.

But, as ever, I say all this with full disclosure that I have never actually made a buying decision on the basis of a blind test. I'm lazy. I wish it was easier to set up and do.

There is a bottom line here: a lot of equipment is hyped, a lot of stuff is sold on marketing rather than actual performance. The kind of hype-fi threads that you see on forums such as head-fi only help to power this.

 

[keith_correa]

everything? That is where the audiophoolery starts, but it is that sort of conversation that resulted in my becoming just an occasional visitor to this site, and I won't follow it up.

Well yes, but don't take the "everything" that I said too literally. For example, "everything" does not include RCA plugs and jacks made of some exotic metal et al. You get the drift.

 

[talkingparrot]

Hey Guys I just got this DAC and cannot install the drivers on my PC whatsoever. What makes matters worse is the website is totally jank and absolutely not user friendly. Can you guys give me any idea how you installed this thing on your Windows 10 machine?

 

[naj]

Hi ShutterX,

The Dac will take over the not so good sound cards in the PC's.
There are a few stock entertainment PC's or with custom fitted sound cards available .With that fitted the there could be little difference with the Dac fitted. But the Dac will still be doing its duty in the setup and cannot be blamed. The original sound card is giving a good D/ A conversion as is .

Thanks,

 

[techboy]

Actually, this sort of thing is very common with me. I hear all this rave (raving) feedback from various sources about how good something sounds and I go in with a lot of expectations thinking this will change my world. When it actually happens the difference is often so subtle as to be non existent and then I go - WTF are they talking about!! This has happened tons of times with me. If you complain about not feeling the earth move then you will have someone saying how your equipment is just not good enough or "resolving" enough for you to hear the difference. The reality is that these days the law of diminishing returns kicks off much much early. An example: I recently heard a $15 Class D amp paired with a $25 tube pre-amp (ebay stuff) and then heard exactly the same upstream/downstream equipment with the amplification replaced with a $1000 integrated amp. To my ears there was a small difference with the edge going to the eBay Chinese stuff. Maybe that makes me and my ears non audiophile but that's the way it often is for me.

Edit: the only exception that I found to which the above is not applicable, IMO are speakers. If I were to advise someone on buying equipment it would be to buy inexpensive but decent sounding electronics BUT to buy the best sounding speakers that they can afford.

You're the only sensible person in this thread.

Transducers do vary, quite a bit.

DACs are the same. Amps can vary slightly. Cables don't even count.

The saying:

"A fool is easily parted with his money" is true I guess

Unless somebody has experienced ABTs or DBTs under level matched conditions, no point taking his views, because he doesn't know what he actually heard.

If you hear the difference, DBT it. Publish it. There are organisations willing to pay you a million dollars (or less) for telling apart cables/DACs/etc.

Nobody has been able to do that so far.

The only reason cables/DACs sound different is because of the difference in level. Some cables are very slightly louder, others the reverse.

Anyway, I have a Whatsapp Audiophile group, everybody is welcome. Sensible as well as non-sensible people We have all types of people there!

 

[techboy]

I wouldn't say it is impossible, but yes, of course, it is perfectly possible. I have written elsewhere about recently auditioning an expensive-compared-to-what-I-have DAC and finding the sound not only different, but not suiting me at all and it had to go back. It was an >$800 DAC.



everything? That is where the audiophoolery starts, but it is that sort of conversation that resulted in my becoming just an occasional visitor to this site, and I won't follow it up.

But magnitude is the thing, and it is has been known for night and day changes to vapourise when people do not know what they are listening to, or for those as-expected results to suddenly turn out turned upside down.

But, as ever, I say all this with full disclosure that I have never actually made a buying decision on the basis of a blind test. I'm lazy. I wish it was easier to set up and do.

There is a bottom line here: a lot of equipment is hyped, a lot of stuff is sold on marketing rather than actual performance. The kind of hype-fi threads that you see on forums such as head-fi only help to power this.

You of course are sensible as well. I respect you a lot. I have read your stuff on HA.

I would like to extend a personal invitation to you. PM me.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thank you techboy, I got your message and replied

The Dac will take over the not so good sound cards in the PC's.

A lot of people like to use laptops. They are a lifestyle choice, where people feel they suit the decor of the room, and that a computer cabinet does not.

Now, there may be a controversy over switched and linear power supplies in the world of audiophilia, but even the hard-headed objectivists at hydrogenaud.io agree that laptops, or more especially, their power supplies, can be very imperfect, and that it is quite possible that they can make electrical noise that is audible from the laptop's headphone port, and can be passed to a connected DAC. Whatever DAC they may have may not even be getting a fair chance.

Around 15 years ago, I found that there were large and very audible differences between soundcards, and the one that I continued to use for a long time afterwards (analogue out, no other DAC) sounded better than my Cyrus CD player. These days, the chip on a motherboard is probably at least as good as card was back then.

I don't use a laptop for audio. I don't use portable except when travelling (or experimenting: my phone sounds awfully good through my HD600s via a GeekOut 450!). I don't entertain any audiophile nonsense about computer components, except keeping the thing physically silent and the only upgrade I would consider would be a physically-silent machine with completely passive cooling. But... with my ageing AC unit currently chugging along like an old diesel at 55dB, the place to spend money to get better sound is obviously not on the sound equipment!

(and, post flood, with a new car in the drive ohyeah, that AC now has to last another year :sad

 

[raghupb]

Now, there may be a controversy over switched and linear power supplies in the world of audiophilia, but even the hard-headed objectivists at hydrogenaud.io agree that laptops, or more especially, their power supplies, can be very imperfect, and that it is quite possible that they can make electrical noise that is audible from the laptop's headphone port, and can be passed to a connected DAC. Whatever DAC they may have may not even be getting a fair chance.

Noise in PCBs have 2 sources:

• Power supply and associated circuitry
• High speed switching of other elements on the board

PCs/laptops for their primary function operate mostly in the digital domain. So noise levels to a certain degree are acceptable.
When analog circuitry is not properly isolated from the noisy digital cousin, bad things can happen.
In audio, analog circuitry does play an important role. Hence, it is prudent to keep the noise levels as low as possible or boost the SNR.
I do not have expertise in audio circuits, but have designed modems in the past. A noisy analog section in a modem can result in a very short distance between CPE and CO.
Similar artifacts, I am sure exists in audio circuitry too, since the underlying principle is the same, electronics!!

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Snarfie]

I had to do this to cut first reflection and low bass frequencies to let it sound 60% better (imaging placement thight bass etc etc). The Acoustics and speakers are almost > 80% of your sound stages/experience. Barely < 20% is the DAC, cabels whatever. For some of us Don't try this at home taking the WAF factor (Women (of for some man) Acceptance Factor) inconsideration. Or built your own Mancave.

 

[arunkvivek]

I had to do this to cut first reflection and low bass frequencies to let it sound 60% better (imaging placement thight bass etc etc). The Acoustics and speakers are almost > 80% of your sound stages/experience. Barely < 20% is the DAC, cabels whatever. For some of us Don't try this at home taking the WAF factor (Women (of for some man) Acceptance Factor) inconsideration. Or built your own Mancave.

Eye-candy! Was this taken with a fish-eye lens? Wish I had the guts to show this to my wife

 

[heliumflight]

I often herad the front ends make the most prominent and lasting impact in the audio chain. Yes, without a transducer to reproduce the frequency response would mean a lost exercise in itself.

Actually, this sort of thing is very common with me. I hear all this rave (raving) feedback from various sources about how good something sounds and I go in with a lot of expectations thinking this will change my world. When it actually happens the difference is often so subtle as to be non existent and then I go - WTF are they talking about!! This has happened tons of times with me. If you complain about not feeling the earth move then you will have someone saying how your equipment is just not good enough or "resolving" enough for you to hear the difference. The reality is that these days the law of diminishing returns kicks off much much early. An example: I recently heard a $15 Class D amp paired with a $25 tube pre-amp (ebay stuff) and then heard exactly the same upstream/downstream equipment with the amplification replaced with a $1000 integrated amp. To my ears there was a small difference with the edge going to the eBay Chinese stuff. Maybe that makes me and my ears non audiophile but that's the way it often is for me.

Edit: the only exception that I found to which the above is not applicable, IMO are speakers. If I were to advise someone on buying equipment it would be to buy inexpensive but decent sounding electronics BUT to buy the best sounding speakers that they can afford.

I have experienced that front ends make the most prominent and lasting impact in the audio chain. Yes, without a transducer to reproduce the frequency range would mean a exercise lost in itself.