GR Research Wharfedale Linton 85 upgrade

Cptnjosh

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Yes, it looks like it will change the sound signature as he talks about bringing the highs and mids up to the same level as the bass. But there is not much information describing the kit or it’s affects. $750 is quite expensive for this speaker, given its retail price.

Personally, I just finshed replacing all the components on the crossover except for the inductors and the big 80uF cap on the woofer. The results are favorable so far, ranging from dramatic in the higher frequency’s to more nuanced as we go down to the lower frequency’s. It cost about $350 for me.
Looking forward to hear peoples impressions of the GR upgrade.
 

balavignesh002

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Personally, I just finshed replacing all the components on the crossover except for the inductors and the big 80uF cap on the woofer.
Interesting, What caps and resistors being used? Where did you source them? Few pictures may help.

But there is not much information describing the kit or it’s affects.
I expect another video on describing the kits and installation walk through. He mentioned it's 3 components less than the oe list.

I may not need his tube connectors as i already bought copper binding post and terminals.

He should have given some break off and some options to have partial purchase.
 

thepope

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I may not need his tube connectors as i already bought copper binding post and terminals.

He should have given some break off and some options to have partial purchase.
Saw this thread and have been following it cause I was interested in seeing if anyone pulled the trigger on these yet.

I emailed him about the same question and he will deduct the no-res, binding posts and cable if you choose to opt out.

His email stated....
For just the crossover parts and Norez you're looking at $624 plus shipping $30.50 for a total of $654.50
You can send payment via paypal to [email protected] or give us a call and we'll take your order over the phone.
 

lowpoweraudio

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I know Danny knows his stuff. But, if you're going to redo the crossover /slopes/order/etc you might as well design your own speaker because at that point the Linton is no longer a Linton. Moreover, I think Danny is a bit harsh on the factory Linton parts quality issue in his review. My response is: "As compared to what? The OEM parts quality is absolutely comparable to any other OEM speaker in the Lintons price range. Consider this, if you mod the speaker and improve the crossover components then you're getting more of what's there, there. Like wiping away morning frost from your window everything gets clearer right? But, if you change the original design of the crossover its like reading a book by Tolstoy, ripping out half the pages then writing your own babel stuffing it in and saying, "Now that's better." I mean really... This is madness.
 
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balavignesh002

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For just the crossover parts and Norez you're looking at $624 plus shipping $30.50 for a total of $654.50
Good that you shared this. We may need to consider 38% import duty on the landing cost of 655 USD.

I know Danny knows his stuff
I am interested in this kit because, I see the change in frequency response with the new design of crossover. Factory crossover upgrade may not help much in changing frequency response and that's what I expect.
 

Vineethkumar01

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Good that you shared this. We may need to consider 38% import duty on the landing cost of 655 USD.


I am interested in this kit because, I see the change in frequency response with the new design of crossover. Factory crossover upgrade may not help much in changing frequency response and that's what I expect.
Unless you have auditioned the upgraded version of this speaker and found it to be really good, wouldn't it be a bit risky (in the sense that you may not find the upgraded crossover matching your tastes) to change the crossover. In this case, it looks like the upgrade also costs a significant amount.
Crossover changes usually don't change much the inherent directivity characteristics of a speaker under consideration (except in the crossover region and unless the crossover is really badly designed in the first place) since it is mostly decided by the box/baffle dimensions and the driver sizes and their radiation characteristics.
In this case, making the frequency response flat (as shown in the frequency response after upgrade in Danny's video) changes the overall spectral balance of the speaker from something like "warm" to "bright".
Wouldn't it be easier to apply EQ to the source material via a good quality DSP if the objective is to change the frequency response to a desired shape (at least the on-axis response). That way, one has more flexibility to tweak later also, I think.
 

Vineethkumar01

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You are bang on the point. This is also an option I am considering.. in fact it is the easiest way of achieving the end result..

But I have to add one more device on the chain.

I use this kind of solution in car. It helps, But cannot correct enclosure issues and room issues.
Good to know that you are also considering the DSP option. If the source is digital, the "degradation" to signal quality will be negligible for a good quality DSP with good DACs. If the source signal is primarily analog, the overall sound quality may be at the mercy of the ADCs in the DSP. Again I hear that with good DSPs, this might be a non-issue.
I agree that DSP wont fix enclosure resonances, if that is an issue that you are facing. But from measurements of the speaker that Danny showed in the video using cumulative spectral decay plots, the stored energy-related issues already look good at lower drive levels for the speaker as it is, without the mods. However, whether any cabinet resonances will be excited at high drive levels needs to be checked and mitigated.
Yes. DSP wouldn't fix all room issues either. But neither would a crossover modification.
Typically, roughly above 1kHz, the speaker radiation characteristics/directivity is more in control of overall tonality of the sound compared to the room, for a reasonably big room. Waveguides would have been nice, if one likes "waveguided" sound. But it cannot be done with this speaker design. Diffraction control needs to be implemented, which is already done to some extent by offsetting that tweeter location on the baffle. So any other appreciable changes, if required, should be done at the design stage itself in choosing baffle/box shape and dimensions and driver characteristics for a desired directivity pattern. If room interaction should be minimized at even lower frequency ranges, again pattern control/directivity control strategies should be implemented at design stage. The other option is to treat the room, which is almost always needed to some extent irrespective of DSP availability or crossover mod. It also requires careful attention to be exercised in the room treatment process. This is so that we maintain the natural reverberation of the room which imparts spaciousness to sound while we attenuate the early reflections, which tend to smear the sound and degrade the imaging.
 

balavignesh002

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My source is all digital.. ACDs and SACDs only.

Denon 2500NE CDP and AMP integrates well. A good Home Audio DSP may cost more than 730 USD.

I almost decided on changing the crossover components with same architecture, then components alone costs 550 Euro + shipping from UK and import duties. with all the effort and cost i am going to carry forward the architecture implications of the xover.
DSP wouldn't fix all room issues either. But neither would a crossover modification.

Danny is giving an complete package Crossover + Wire & terminals + Damping this is attractive as he is not leaving anything behind. the damping solution alone can bring good control of bass i think.

Some how I feel the only neglected or compromised part of Lintons is the xover. look at the lay out, no gaps and poor quality materials. Cabinet material and stands are top notch. Speakers are of good quality Kevlar cone and rigid basket.
The other option is to treat the room
I cannot add any room correction by treating with damping as its my living room, don't want it to look like a studio. I can add a carpet on the floor worst case.
 

Vineethkumar01

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My source is all digital.. ACDs and SACDs only.

Denon 2500NE CDP and AMP integrates well. A good Home Audio DSP may cost more than 730 USD.

I almost decided on changing the crossover components with same architecture, then components alone costs 550 Euro + shipping from UK and import duties. with all the effort and cost i am going to carry forward the architecture implications of the xover.


Danny is giving an complete package Crossover + Wire & terminals + Damping this is attractive as he is not leaving anything behind. the damping solution alone can bring good control of bass i think.

Some how I feel the only neglected or compromised part of Lintons is the xover. look at the lay out, no gaps and poor quality materials. Cabinet material and stands are top notch. Speakers are of good quality Kevlar cone and rigid basket.

I cannot add any room correction by treating with damping as its my living room, don't want it to look like a studio. I can add a carpet on the floor worst case.
Since audio is more about personal preferences, I guess you should go with a solution that you find more confident about and convenient for you. in the long run.

My personal preference is more towards a good DSP solution any day since I am more confident playing around with it and due to the infinite tweakability it offers. Even if the speakers change in future, same DSP can be used for frequency response shaping. However, it involves regular measurement/hearing-based tweaking of frequency responses.
Also, having been taught to pay more attention toward component values and tolerances in passive crossover design, I personally haven't used any other type of passive components other than air core/iron core inductors, poly propylene capacitors, and sandcast/wirewound resistors in the 2 or 3 passive speaker designs (for my own personal use) I have ever attempted. Also as per hearing tests done by doctors, I cant hear any pure tone signals above 14 kHz at reasonable volume levels.. :D So I don't know if expensive capacitors improve sound or not in the very high frequency ranges.

I personally don't believe in tube connectors and expensive cables etc. A good electrical contact between components would do for me. So I have not used anything other than good quality binding posts.

Bass response changes if the bass alignment changes either due to cabinet volume changes or damping material quantity changes especially in bass reflex enclosures. I thought the no-rez damping material was for dampening panel vibrations if they exist in the first place. Maybe it will also have effect on the overall bass alignment tuning.

To determine whether a carpet would be beneficial or not, we need to look at the vertical polars and determine the effect of floor and ceiling reflections. This is not possible without full polar measurements or accurate hearing impressions.

My only concern was changing the overall frequency response to flat compared to the native response and saying that it "fixes" the speakers. But if this tuning is found good upon listening, I have no problems with it. :)
 

square_wave

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I know Danny knows his stuff. But, if you're going to redo the crossover /slopes/order/etc you might as well design your own speaker because at that point the Linton is no longer a Linton. Moreover, I think Danny is a bit harsh on the factory Linton parts quality issue in his review. My response is: "As compared to what? The OEM parts quality is absolutely comparable to any other OEM speaker in the Lintons price range. Consider this, if you mod the speaker and improve the crossover components then you're getting more of what's there, there. Like wiping away morning frost from your window everything gets clearer right? But, if you change the original design of the crossover its like reading a book by Tolstoy, ripping out half the pages then writing your own babel stuffing it in and saying, "Now that's better." I mean really... This is madness.
I agree with this. when you upgrade a 1000 $ speaker ( hypothetical number ), there is no point in spending an amount that is more than half its retail price to land up with something that is now sounding very different from the original voicing. A couple of hundred dollars spend in the right places to make it a more solid performer while retaining its original voicing would be more appropriate.

If you are after a more transparent, dynamic and balanced sound, maybe the Linton might not be the speaker for you. That might require different drivers and cabinet design etc..etc. Crossover upgrades only cannot make such a speaker.

Having said that, it may be worthwhile to talk to someone who has already done this to see if they are still getting more of the linton sound but in a more balanced manner.
 

lowpoweraudio

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Yes, it looks like it will change the sound signature as he talks about bringing the highs and mids up to the same level as the bass. But there is not much information describing the kit or it’s affects. $750 is quite expensive for this speaker, given its retail price.

Personally, I just finshed replacing all the components on the crossover except for the inductors and the big 80uF cap on the woofer. The results are favorable so far, ranging from dramatic in the higher frequency’s to more nuanced as we go down to the lower frequency’s. It cost about $350 for me.
Looking forward to hear peoples impressions of the GR upgrade.
Can you expand on the parts you used for your Linton upgrade? Experiences, crossover removal, soldering, resistors etc?
 

Cptnjosh

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Can you expand on the parts you used for your Linton upgrade? Experiences, crossover removal, soldering, resistors etc?
Yes, sorry. I replaced the 6.8uF and .68uF tweeters caps with Jantzen superior Z. The remaining parallel cap on the tweeter and all other caps in the mid circuit were replaced with Jantzen standard Z. All resistors except the one in the woofer circuit were replaced with Mundorf supreme. In the woofer circuit there is a large 80uF electrolytic and little 6uF poly cap in paralle. Here I placed the the original 6.8uF MkP cap from the tweeter position and the 80uF electrolytic.
Eventually, I will replace this With one 18uF and 68uF crosscap for a total of 86uF. I have also purchased a set of Cornell DubIilier 940-CDE .015uF 3kv caps for the shunts on tweeter series caps. This will probably be my last and final step, but I am not in a big hurry as I am quite satisfied at this point.
The highs are clearer, and slightly more extended with a better sense of air about them, and the mids are better defined and less smeared. Imaging seems to be improved slightly with a more holographic quality to it. These differences are not drastic though. The original sound signature is retained but the sound more well defined and less diffuse.
I used a cheap 25w soldering iron along with desoldering bulb, some card solder, and the above parts. If I could do it again I would probably just stick with standard z on the tweeter series caps as the superior is huge and expensive, and then just add a nice shunt. Otherwise I was pleased the speakers still worked when I was done, LOL, the sound was improved just enough, and it was a fun project.

I really wanted to replace the cheap inductors but not knowing the exact DCR of the stock inductors stopped me. Also, adding bigger, nicer inductors would require a larger point to point crossover board. Let me see if I can post a pic later on.
 

thepope

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Yes, sorry. I replaced the 6.8uF and .68uF tweeters caps with Jantzen superior Z. The remaining parallel cap on the tweeter and all other caps in the mid circuit were replaced with Jantzen standard Z. All resistors except the one in the woofer circuit were replaced with Mundorf supreme. In the woofer circuit there is a large 80uF electrolytic and little 6uF poly cap in paralle. Here I placed the the original 6.8uF MkP cap from the tweeter position and the 80uF electrolytic.
Eventually, I will replace this With one 18uF and 68uF crosscap for a total of 86uF. I have also purchased a set of Cornell DubIilier 940-CDE .015uF 3kv caps for the shunts on tweeter series caps. This will probably be my last and final step, but I am not in a big hurry as I am quite satisfied at this point.
The highs are clearer, and slightly more extended with a better sense of air about them, and the mids are better defined and less smeared. Imaging seems to be improved slightly with a more holographic quality to it. These differences are not drastic though. The original sound signature is retained but the sound more well defined and less diffuse.
I used a cheap 25w soldering iron along with desoldering bulb, some card solder, and the above parts. If I could do it again I would probably just stick with standard z on the tweeter series caps as the superior is huge and expensive, and then just add a nice shunt. Otherwise I was pleased the speakers still worked when I was done, LOL, the sound was improved just enough, and it was a fun project.

I really wanted to replace the cheap inductors but not knowing the exact DCR of the stock inductors stopped me. Also, adding bigger, nicer inductors would require a larger point to point crossover board. Let me see if I can post a pic later on.
I was looking at doing the same... How much room on the board do you have to work with when adding the larger caps? Did you stack the larger caps on top with longer leads? If you have time or want to I would love to see it... :?
 

AKT

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If I could do it again I would probably just stick with standard z on the tweeter series caps as the superior is huge and expensive, and then just add a nice shunt.
Some did use the std. Z and found the highs to be shouty, this was despite the Miflex kpcu-01 cap as shunt. Superior Z is indeed the superior choice! I have read, many used them.
 

Cptnjosh

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I was looking at doing the same... How much room on the board do you have to work with when adding the larger caps? Did you stack the larger caps on top with longer leads? If you have time or want to I would love to see it... :?
Not much room. Everything is nice and snug. Yes some components are raised up or stacked to make room. The 6.8uF Superior Z is hanging off the board but the leads are nice and stiff. If your careful and methodical it can be done. Take a picture of the board before removing the components and move from one side to the other removing each piece to be replaced. The sand cast resistors were really stuck on there and require a sharp prying tool.
Some did use the std. Z and found the highs to be shouty, this was despite the Miflex kpcu-01 cap as shunt. Superior Z is indeed the superior choice! I have read, many used them.
Thanks, good to hear. Glad I went this way then, despite the cap hanging off the board. Maybe I will add the Cornell shunts at a later time but for now just enjoying.
 

Kannan

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Wouldn't it be easier to apply EQ to the source material via a good quality DSP
@balavignesh002 Danny provides the frequencies where he has measured the dips and peaks . Before employing a hardware DSP, use a media player like JRIver or Foobar to EQ (use parametric) at software level by taking Danny's measurement as a base to hear how the sound changes.
Not sure if spending 800USD just on crossover upgrade without hearing the end result is worth it taking into consideration the price of the speakers.

Though it is not the best approach, but you can get a very good idea of how the sound changes.
 
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