Grundig V5000 - German Masterclass

** Channel Imbalance **

Some have asked queries on whether there is any channel imbalance due to the replacement of components specific to one channel.

A golden rule (usually over looked) while repairing stereo equipment is when components are replaced for a single channel, the same components should be replaced for the other channel as well, with the same value and brand. This will especially important when the brands of components used are not OEM. Restoration is done often ignoring this factor to keep costs down.

In this case, the entire poweramp had fried transistors so there was a carpet change involved here for both channels. Transistors replaced in the preamp stages have been done for both channels, same approach has been used for electrolytic cap replacements as well.

i have spent a lot of time carefully listening to the amp to try and identify any channel imbalance. I could not detect any imbalance what so ever and the balance control is positioined spot-centre. Stereo imagery is suberb.
 
** Bias Re-calibration **

Yes, the bias settings for this amp has been checked and re-calibrated as per the standards given in the original service manual.

Over a period of time, ideally a bias re-calibration is required for all amplifiers. This is even more important when amplifiers are repaired, modified or even when they are to be put into use after a long period of storage.
 
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long listening session today, just finished. the amp is breaking in well. need to give the input and output sockets a good clean
 
Some more photos of the Grundig V5000, covering the features.

A unique feature of this amp is the pre-set controls below the cabinet for MM/MC and MIC selection and gain. The gain control is particularly useful when using extremely bright and exceedingly dull cartridges for phono and should also work well if a dynamic mic is used.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/...5887360047880125058&oid=108406143616300087430

(please click backwards when viewing the photos)
 
Very interesting read. Great job. I don't have time to undertake anything of this magnitude so derive a lot of vicarious pleasure for reading such posts.
 
Did a lot of listening yesterday, predominantly vinyl. The amp is starting to break in and sound very smooth. The tone control is a gem and if carefully adjusted, is very useful while listening to old vinyl. The ticks and pops can be easily kept under control. Had the amp running through the night playing mp3 music in the background. Trying to get some serious burn in done. Had a few visitors down yesterday to listen to the amp. They were impressed, one of them wanted to buy the amp :)

Sorted through the replacement components yesterday (there's a lot of them). I actually have a spare set of replacement transistors and components as stand-by spares (very difficult to get and have to be imported). Will post a list with the cost, later tonight or tomorrow. Its the year-end in our organization and hence, very busy with year end appraisals for my teams.
 
and the breaking in continues, 31 hours so far and the difference is telling:

vinyl albums played end-to-end, from yesterday's extended listening session:

1) Deep Purple - 24 Carat Purple (1975)

2) Deep Purple - Machine Head (1972)

3) Van Halen - Fair Warning (1981)

4) Metallica - Kill em' All (1983/Cliff Burton - RIP)

5) AC/DC - Highway to Hell (1979/Bon Scott - RIP)

6) Ozzy Osborne - The Blizzard Of Ozz (1980/Randy Rhoads - RIP)
 
The amp has crossed the 40 hour mark now, think its more or less there. More burn in will only make it better.

Yesterday was Montovani night, 4 LPs at a stretch then went through Michael Jackson's (RIP) BAD for the sake of my son :)
 
The amp is sounding really good now, smooth and silky. Yesterday was Boney M night, sat through most of their discography on vinyl:

Take the heat of me (1976)
Love for sale (1977)
Night flight to venus (1978)
Oceans of fantasy (1979)
Boonoonoonoos (1981)
Ten thousand light years (1984)

The only ones missing were The Christmas Album (have this on cd) and Eye Dance

Above four hours of listening, got done by 2:30am
 
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Did quite a bit of listening today as well, mostly classical. The amp has broken in and sounds really warm and smooth. Wife ran it the whole day on FM and bollywood music as well so its played for over 50 hours now.

Here is the long awaited list of components replaced and the restoration cost:

1) Transistors

BC557B - 3
BC560A - 7
BD629 - 1
BD135 - 6
BD136 - 3
BD139 - 1
BC550B - 2
BC547B - 1
TIP35C - 4
BD179 - 2
BD135-16 - 2
TIP36C - 4
BC550C - 1
BC560C - 1
MJE243 - 1
Total Cost (inclusive of shipping) - 39 BP (Rs.3449/- on card)

2) PCB Repair - Rs.175/-
3) Solder - Rs.60/-
4) Flux - Rs.20/-
5) Heatsink cement - Rs.25/-
6) Speaker protection board (salvaged, inclusive of shipping) - 19 BP (Rs.1628/- on card)

7) Resistor and caps:

100 ohm - 6
68 ohm - 4
33 ohm - 2
27 ohm - 4
1.2k - 2
120 ohm - 2
1 ohm (10 watt wire wound) - 2
47 mfd 100 volt - 4
22 mfd 16 volt - 2
47 mfd 50 volt - 2
470 mfd 50 volt - 2
Total cost (inclusive of shipping) - 16BP (Rs.1359/- on card)

8) Credit card service charges, petrol for local commute, etc Rs.649/-

Total cost of restoration: Rs.7365/-
 
i am just a nothing compared to your skill level and knowledge..
just asking for curiocity..
what was the exact procedure.
1.matching the diagram with original machine.........really salute you
2.physical inspection of any damaged components
3.searching the exact components..same brand perhaps...again salute..it is ultra frustration when you dont get exact parts...being patient and sourcing is not easy
4.repairing..testing

now at stage 2 or after stage 2...any part which is non functional but appear okay physically.....what was the method to identify..

thanks

oh sorry if i missed any steps
 
i am just a nothing compared to your skill level and knowledge..
just asking for curiocity..
what was the exact procedure.
1.matching the diagram with original machine.........really salute you
2.physical inspection of any damaged components
3.searching the exact components..same brand perhaps...again salute..it is ultra frustration when you dont get exact parts...being patient and sourcing is not easy
4.repairing..testing

now at stage 2 or after stage 2...any part which is non functional but appear okay physically.....what was the method to identify..

thanks

oh sorry if i missed any steps


Hey, its not as difficult as it seems. Usually technicians have his uncany knack of making things look extremely difficult which is a ploy to have other's glorify them and also to charge a lot of money. Actually, some basic knowledge of electronics, passion for audio electronics, some patience and time are all that's required.

Yes, basic knowledge of electronics is required, for identifying components, for understanding connectivity, for understanding circuit diagrams (symbolic representations, equivalents, colour codes, etc), basic knowledge of how amplifiers, etc are structured (preamp, poweramp, power supply, etc) and substructured (poweramp: pre-driver, driver, output, etc), logical trouble shooting exposure, knowledge of how to handle a multimeter, soldering station, availability of a bench powersupply, bench amplifier, speakers for testing, a junk box with lots of wires, connectors, screws, bolts and nuts and what not - which can be used for salvaged parts (use this for testing and replace with new components once you've finalized the replacements)

One must also have access to the internet (one must master the art of locating information), communication skills (to communicate with others, especially on ebay), the ability to research and analyze and finally must be patient. At times things may not work or may head towards a dead end. Also spares hunting is a difficult task. That is the reason why these restoration jobs take 5-6 months.

Before starting, photograph, key aspects (This is particularly important if dealing with mechanical devices like turntables)

The approach I use is:

1) Try to download a service manual, this is the very first and the most important step. Without a service manual, getting something back to its original state is virtually impossible unless one is an expert

2) Study the service manual carefully to get an understanding of circuit design. What is included in the circuit and what is the logic behind functionality. What are the key aspects of the circuit. Look up case studies on the internet, others may have restored the same piece of equipment, the same type of equipment may have exhibited typical similar problems which others encountered. Here is an example of a document which turned out to be the holy grail of this amplifier restoration: http://www.uwedamm.de/V5000_Reparaturanleitung_V3.pdf. I can boldly say that if we did not find this document (which had to be translated from German into English), fixing this amp would have been extremely difficult.

3) Open up the equipment and visually examine (carefully). Look for burns, leaks, breaks, prospective tampering and missing components. Try to sniff out any odd odours from near the power-components and transformer (many dont agree but odour is a huge give away for electronics - one can tell if the equipment was stored, overheated, fried, recently soldered on, etc if one is familiar with the smells). Also look for soldering flux accumulation on the PCB, this signifies recent work on it.

4) Compare the component layout on the PCB to the component layout illustrated in the schematic, use a random sampling method to check if key components are of the right value and in their proper places

4) Depending on the diagnosis, disconnect the powersupply and check it separately, check semiconductors, don't stop when for find a faulty one, there are likely to be others so check them all, if with a solid state amp for example, start with the output power transistors (closest to the speaker rails) and move backwards to the pre-driver and driver, also look out for burnt resistors and broken/leaky capacitors, replace all and test using a low voltage PSU (so that you have time to turn off if anything starts to fry). Test the poweramp separately once you've replaced all faulty components. Disconnect any protection circuitry while testing, but use only low voltages if protection circuitry is disconnected. Use the same approach with the preamp, go backwards (from output to input). A useful tool is the good old signal injector. Its very useful while testing an amp with a working poweramp.

5) Once you're done with all replacements and you have a functional amp, make a note of the components changed (with date). If you've used equivalents or substitutes, make a not of these on the schematic. If the amp has been hot-rodded (modified), outline the modifications in the schematic (for future reference). Connect back the protection circuitry and the powersupply, run the amp on the test bench for atleast 10-12 hours, look out for over heating, distortion

6) then go for the bias check and calibration and other finer aspects

7) run through the pots, switches and connectors, replace faulty ones, clean existing ones

8) clean up the cabinet (before screwing everything back) and polish the exterior

Once you have the amp all screwed up, play, play and play it as it needs to burn in. Also re-check functionality and you're ready to sit back and enjoy the music.

To answer the second part of your question, yes components may test ok but may not work. This is a very difficult scenario to diagnose and also to fix. One must be a little more experienced to deal with this problems. The first step would be to try and locate the issue. It can be something simple like a PCB contact problem or dry solder or something major like a malfunctioning component. Again, I would break the amp down into sections and subsections and test individually till I zero in on the defective area. For example, many years ago, when I was in school, a friend gave me his transistor radio to fix. The issue was that it would not receive shortwave (he wanted this badly to listen to BBC test match special). We checked the radio inside out and could not locate any fault. Then after a few days, I was discussing the history of the radio with the owner when he said that the radio went dead sometime back and a local technician was able to fix only the medium wave section. This was a huge breakthrough, on further checking, I then discovered that the technician had replaced the original shortwave oscillator coil with a medium wave oscillator coil (which looked similar) and hence the shortwave bands did not work. This was fixed in no time. Later on when in college, my brother and I fixed a 14 inch black & white television's sound RF stage which tested ok but would not work. A coil replacement solved the problem.

Overall, its an exciting experience, every restoration or repair job has huge learning associated with it. My brother and I have been fiddling around with electronics since our early school days. We've built a lot of stuff, we've broken a lot of stuff and repaired a lot of stuff and we've learnt a few things on the way, still learning.
 
Over the weekend, India clashes with Pakistan in the ICC Champions Trophy, another clash of the Titans will be taking place in Trivandrum - NAD vs Grundig V5000 and Marantz PM80 vs Grundig V5000. The NADs will be represented by 106/216thx tag team, 3020A, C320. Source will be my Technics SL3200 (with M44-7) and my brother's Macintosh floorstanders. The NAD106 phonostage will be used when the C320 is in action (as it does not have a phono stage)

Vinyl shortlisted for the audition:

Classical: The Nutcracker (Ballet)
Rock: Deep Purple - Machine Head
Pop: Tina Turner - Private Dancer
Country: Buck Owens - Dust on Mother's Bible / The Best of Jim Reeves
Orchestra: James Last - Instrumentals Forever / Roberto Delgado - Along Mexican Highways / Mantovani - The World Of Mantovani

Will be playing only select tracks from each album. All albums are American pressings.

Watch this space for more!!
 
Round-1 Grundig V5000 vs Marantz PM80

A friend brought his old Marantz PM80 over, yesterday and stayed overnight. This gave us the opportunity to pitch this amp against the Grundig V5000. We had planned this over a week ago and his intention was to listen to the Grundig as he had never heard or seen one before.

We used a common source, SL3200 with M44-7 and Macintosh floor standers. First to go up was the PM80. Deep Purple's highway star and smoke on the water, then Tina Turner's what's love got to do with it, followed by the entire James Last LP, Instrumentals forever. The Marantz was running in Class-A/B mode (chose this mode as we wanted to have a level playing field). The PM80 sounded fluid and smooth, bass was tight and mids were un-coloured and stood out. The instrumentation on the James Last LP sounded very real, airy and vibrant. Stereo imagery was good with good dimensions. The sound was wholesome and very musical. We just sat back and enjoyed the music. Then it was the turn of the Grundig V5000. Now, we must remember that not too many people are familiar with Grundig and neither does Grundig have a global reputation on the lines of Marantz and NAD. Before the battle, it was expected that the Marantz would easily win, so we went in with this per-conceived notion. However we were in for a pleasant surprise. Listened to the same tracks on the Grundig V5000, the first bolt of lightning to strike us was in the form of the dimensions and imagery. The Grundig was miles ahead of the Marantz. If felt like the orchestra was playing in front of us. The highs were very polished but a little more aggressive over the Marantz, however the Marantz's mids were slightly more refined over the Grundig's with the tone controls in flat position. However the Grundig's marked advantage was its superior tone control with bass, treble and 2 mid-range controls (upper mids and lower mids). The Grundig was at home with rock, pop and sounded great for orchestration as well, with its superior tone control and punchy aggressive sound. The stereo imagery was quite pronounced, at times we wondered if this was too true to be believed. The phonostage of the grundig appeared to be far superior to the Marantz's phonostage. We wired the Grundig's line out to the Marantz and the sound from the Marantz was a notch ahead of its usual default signature.

Overall the Marantz sounded very flud and smooth, the Grundig was pacy and aggressive. The Marantz sounded good on orchestration but lacked the punch for rock and pop, while the Grundig had the dimensions and good tonal balance with all the different types of music. The Grundig's phonostage was superior to the Marantz. We agreed at the end of the listening session, that was round-1 should go to the Grundig V5000. It was an upset result, definitely.

Round-2 to follow tonight. Its going to be the V5000 against the legendary NAD 3020A
 
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Now I became a fan of yours.

I will be eagerly waiting for the comparison...... What a great passion! I always defends the stereo systems of 80ts. They reached to their glorious pick during this era.

I have long & secret desire or quest which I want to share with you as a friend. I am going to name a model of Technics Amp & Tape Deck which were designed by German Engineers (though it was a Japanese company) which were only available in Europe and US. It is Technics SU-V900 Amplifier and Technics Stereo Tape Deck RS-B965. I am almost in 22 years of quest in search of them. I got so passionate or you can say almost got mad about stereos after hearing that model on a morning of 1990s.

Here is some link to introduce you to that beauty.

Here is you tube link of Amp- Technics SU-V900 Stereo Integrated Amplifier - YouTube

For tape deck - Technics RS-B965 tape deck short demo - YouTube

Here is another link for information of the same- Technics RS-B965 Stereo Cassette Deck

As you seems to have much more exposure and connections with hifi world and I have very limited source, will you please please see around if these two models are still available. Also in future if I can manage to find those I might need your knowledgeable help (of course professionally, no hard feeling please). I do not want to hijack your thread, so I may have to start a separate thread on this quest. If u have spare time please google it to see how greatly these 2 master pieces (especially the amp) were designed.
 

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Did quite a bit of listening today as well, mostly classical. The amp has broken in and sounds really warm and smooth. Wife ran it the whole day on FM and bollywood music as well so its played for over 50 hours now.

Here is the long awaited list of components replaced and the restoration cost:

1) Transistors

BC557B - 3
BC560A - 7
BD629 - 1
BD135 - 6
BD136 - 3
BD139 - 1
BC550B - 2
BC547B - 1
TIP35C - 4
BD179 - 2
BD135-16 - 2
TIP36C - 4
BC550C - 1
BC560C - 1
MJE243 - 1
Total Cost (inclusive of shipping) - 39 BP (Rs.3449/- on card)

2) PCB Repair - Rs.175/-
3) Solder - Rs.60/-
4) Flux - Rs.20/-
5) Heatsink cement - Rs.25/-
6) Speaker protection board (salvaged, inclusive of shipping) - 19 BP (Rs.1628/- on card)

7) Resistor and caps:

100 ohm - 6
68 ohm - 4
33 ohm - 2
27 ohm - 4
1.2k - 2
120 ohm - 2
1 ohm (10 watt wire wound) - 2
47 mfd 100 volt - 4
22 mfd 16 volt - 2
47 mfd 50 volt - 2
470 mfd 50 volt - 2
Total cost (inclusive of shipping) - 16BP (Rs.1359/- on card)

8) Credit card service charges, petrol for local commute, etc Rs.649/-

Total cost of restoration: Rs.7365/-

How can you forget to add the values of your (and your brother's) dedication, patience, skill and labor, without those it is not even close to a half-told story. My sincere salute to you. :clapping:
 
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Thanks for the nice words Srisaikat, just like you, i too have a passion for the late 1970s, early 80s equipment and really feel sad when these bite the dust. My brother and I have both got professional careers running with very little time to spare but we take these challenges up just for having some fun. It also helps us relive the old times when we used to build our electronics projects together (right from our school days). We also live in the same neighborhood and that helps. The idea is just to do these projects for the fun involved, that's all. We don't take these up professionally, and we are not into the commercial aspects so the focus is purely on getting a successful fix.

We also help out friends (like I'm doing JK_Chaos' turntable) when we get the chance, again just for the fun of doing these projects.

Again, the pleasure derived out of getting something to work is worth all the effort so we don't really believe that we should put a price on that :)
 
Now I became a fan of yours.

I will be eagerly waiting for the comparison...... What a great passion! I always defends the stereo systems of 80ts. They reached to their glorious pick during this era.

I have long & secret desire or quest which I want to share with you as a friend. I am going to name a model of Technics Amp & Tape Deck which were designed by German Engineers (though it was a Japanese company) which were only available in Europe and US. It is Technics SU-V900 Amplifier and Technics Stereo Tape Deck RS-B965. I am almost in 22 years of quest for search of them. I got so passionate or you can say almost got mad about stereos after hearing that model on a morning of 1990s.

Here is some link to introduce you to that beauty.

Here is you tube link of Amp- Technics SU-V900 Stereo Integrated Amplifier - YouTube

For tape deck - Technics RS-B965 tape deck short demo - YouTube

Here is another link for information of the same- Technics RS-B965 Stereo Cassette Deck

As you seems to have much more exposure and connections with hifi world and I have very limited source, will you please please see around if these two models are still available. Also in future if I can manage to find those I might need your knowledgeable help (of course professionally, no hard feeling please). I do not want to hijack your thread, so I may have to start a separate thread on this quest. If u have spare time please google it to see how greatly these 2 master pieces (especially the amp) were designed.

Wow!! that's lovely, just like you, I too have a craving for a piece of Technics equipment, the SB7000A linear phase speaker system. But it is likely that I'll never ever find a pair in India and they are too expensive (not worth the pain) to import these. The amp looks a monster and so does the deck. If I come across these anywhere, I'll definitely let you know. Kerala being a state that was (and is) obsessed with the middle east, a lot of upwardly mobile Kerala households used to have Technics equipment. If I come across these, I'll let you know immediately.

You are most welcome to seek our help at anytime. We always try our best to help.

Also we strongly believe that restoration must be done only with imported components (made in the western world), OEM components or salvaged components (in working condition). The Indian and Chinese ones are not up there with the best.
 
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