awesome job..
quite a few of these parts can be procured locally at sp road on even on the net... could've saved you some cash
Grundig V5000 - German Masterclass
- Thread starter reubensm
- Start date
quite a few of these parts can be procured locally at sp road on even on the net... could've saved you some cash
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Yes, some of the components are available locally but they kind of cost nearly the same. Shipping was optimized due to group purchase. Also intended to avoid Indian components due to quality issues or differences that may come up.
Thanks for the nice words Srisaikat, just like you, i too have a passion for the late 1970s, early 80s equipment and really feel sad when these bite the dust. My brother and I have both got professional careers running with very little time to spare but we take these challenges up just for having some fun. It also helps us relive the old times when we used to build our electronics projects together (right from our school days). We also live in the same neighborhood and that helps. The idea is just to do these projects for the fun involved, that's all. We don't take these up professionally, and we are not into the commercial aspects so the focus is purely on getting a successful fix.
We also help out friends (like I'm doing JK_Chaos' turntable) when we get the chance, again just for the fun of doing these projects.
Again, the pleasure derived out of getting something to work is worth all the effort so we don't really believe that we should put a price on that
Brother, I can feel the warmth of your heart from this far. You have great pleasure behind your passion and that is the best part. Unfortunately through out my childhood I always missed such compassionate type of friendship and neighborhood :sad:. I had to migrate from one place to another, so the missing part was stable & warmth relationship. I was also like to be electronics hobbyist on my early age, my favorite hangout was different electronic (radio shacks) repair shop. But alas! Neither my parent supported or understood that nor I found any partner or friend with whom I could share my passion. So I envy such childhood (as yours)
. If a child's desire is continuously suppressed what would he become? A life less person.:indifferent14:
But I feel so glad and homely when I found that there is a class of people in this forum who are same passionate as I dreamed in my early life. Also feel relived when I discover there is a world where parents and neighborhood possess that sensitivity to nourish the dream of their children.
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reubensm
Well-Known Member
Sat down last night after the Ind/Pak game. First to go was the Grundig (for a change, the challenger was first in the ring). Chose the Mantovani LP this time. Now, one need not say much about the 3020A, its sound characteristics and performance is well documented. There was a perfect balance in the sound, highs, mids and lows flowing together in the right ratios (without the loudness turned on). The sound was so musical that we sat back and listened to the entire Mantovani LP and wanted to listen to more. There's something magical about the 3020's sound that one would want to listen to it again and again. There is absolutely no listening fatigue experienced while listening to it. Stereo imagery is superb and sound was extremely realistic. Now it was the turn of the V5000. Again, it was a neck to neck battle in overall dimensions of the sound, the V5000 perhaps a tad better (probably because of its raw power). However, the overall sound flowing to our ears was not as delighting as the NAD. The oomph factor missing but nevertheless the V5000 could hold its own. All this was done with the tone controls of both amps in flat position. After listening to the entire Mantovani LP on the V5000, we had a clear winner and it was the NAD.
However there's a twist to the story. We decided to give Metallica a go, starting with the 3020. Now, I belong to the class of enthusiasts who love to listen to my rock music, coloured. We played Metallica's Hit The Lights (from Kill em' all) on the NAD with the tone controls first, in flat position and thereafter repeated the track with the tone controls turned up. The result - sounded like we were listening to a speaker placed in an earthen pot. The 3020 is definitely not the amp for heavy metal Got to the Grundig and it simply blew the NAD away with it power and aggression. Lars drumming could be literally felt and Jame's machoistic vocal aggression really stood out (despite the fact that, by his standards, he actually sounds like a kid singing on this album) and when we decided to colour the sound on the Grundig, we had 4 tone controls to play with, hence we were able to produce some bone shaking sounds, went through the entire Metallica LP on the Grundig.
The 3020 overall is a much better amplifier with great response and its phonostage was obviously much better. However the Grundig lost its initial battle but fought back strongly when the genre of music was changed. The V5000 is definitely the amp for trance, pop, rock and metal while the 3020 amp is a legend when it comes to handling all kinds of genres (except heavy metal for sure)
After this we tried the NAD C320 against the V5000 with the same tracks - Mantovani and Metallica. My 106 preamp was used as the phonostage. There was absolutely no competition and the C320 lost out badly. The 106's phonostage did not seem to play well with it and the overall sound signature was very dull. It sounded as though the speakers were a prison cell with Mantovani's orchestra and Metallica locked up inside them. Sounded dull and boring. Maybe there was an equipment mismatch or so but this audition ended without even a comparison. Tried the V5000's phonostage with the C320 and it did not sound any different either.
The grand finale is tonight were in my 106/216 combo will go up against the v5000.
However there's a twist to the story. We decided to give Metallica a go, starting with the 3020. Now, I belong to the class of enthusiasts who love to listen to my rock music, coloured. We played Metallica's Hit The Lights (from Kill em' all) on the NAD with the tone controls first, in flat position and thereafter repeated the track with the tone controls turned up. The result - sounded like we were listening to a speaker placed in an earthen pot. The 3020 is definitely not the amp for heavy metal
Got to the Grundig and it simply blew the NAD away with it power and aggression. Lars drumming could be literally felt and Jame's machoistic vocal aggression really stood out (despite the fact that, by his standards, he actually sounds like a kid singing on this album) and when we decided to colour the sound on the Grundig, we had 4 tone controls to play with, hence we were able to produce some bone shaking sounds, went through the entire Metallica LP on the Grundig. The 3020 overall is a much better amplifier with great response and its phonostage was obviously much better. However the Grundig lost its initial battle but fought back strongly when the genre of music was changed. The V5000 is definitely the amp for trance, pop, rock and metal while the 3020 amp is a legend when it comes to handling all kinds of genres (except heavy metal for sure)
After this we tried the NAD C320 against the V5000 with the same tracks - Mantovani and Metallica. My 106 preamp was used as the phonostage. There was absolutely no competition and the C320 lost out badly. The 106's phonostage did not seem to play well with it and the overall sound signature was very dull. It sounded as though the speakers were a prison cell with Mantovani's orchestra and Metallica locked up inside them. Sounded dull and boring. Maybe there was an equipment mismatch or so but this audition ended without even a comparison. Tried the V5000's phonostage with the C320 and it did not sound any different either.
The grand finale is tonight were in my 106/216 combo will go up against the v5000.
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reubensm
Well-Known Member
NAD 106/216thx vs the Grundig V5000, did a round of listening yesterday, another to follow tonight.
After listening session-1, thought that the 106/216thx combination was very fluid, warm and pleasant sounding. The Grundig was very agressive and with the tone controls in flat position sounded a bit coloured when compared to the highly neutral NADs. Got the same feeling when the comparison with the 3020A was being made. Guess this amp is from the German Eurodisco era when most music played was bass oriented. The control of gain and overall volume on the Grundig was far superior with its db controller (additional to the volume control). The NAD 106 phonostage sounded very smooth and interestingly a lot of surface noise, ticks and pops were masked. On the Grundig V5000, this could be achieved by manipulating the tone controls. The Grundig has a loudness control that boosts the lows, highs and overall dimension, ideal for playing music at loud volumes, but on the NAD, the volume control has to be turned up but the sound remains warm and neutral, but at higher volume (but does not achieve the same punchy effect as the Grundig's loudness control).
Will listen again and write a more track-wise comparison tonight. Was planning to use the GrundigV5000 on a second vintage rig but wifey has come out against the idea. Due to sentimental reasons, I'd love to stay with my NADs but I'll give them both a good look in later tonight. Wifey will also be joining in for tonight's audition (for the lay man's perspective).
After listening session-1, thought that the 106/216thx combination was very fluid, warm and pleasant sounding. The Grundig was very agressive and with the tone controls in flat position sounded a bit coloured when compared to the highly neutral NADs. Got the same feeling when the comparison with the 3020A was being made. Guess this amp is from the German Eurodisco era when most music played was bass oriented. The control of gain and overall volume on the Grundig was far superior with its db controller (additional to the volume control). The NAD 106 phonostage sounded very smooth and interestingly a lot of surface noise, ticks and pops were masked. On the Grundig V5000, this could be achieved by manipulating the tone controls. The Grundig has a loudness control that boosts the lows, highs and overall dimension, ideal for playing music at loud volumes, but on the NAD, the volume control has to be turned up but the sound remains warm and neutral, but at higher volume (but does not achieve the same punchy effect as the Grundig's loudness control).
Will listen again and write a more track-wise comparison tonight. Was planning to use the GrundigV5000 on a second vintage rig but wifey has come out against the idea. Due to sentimental reasons, I'd love to stay with my NADs but I'll give them both a good look in later tonight. Wifey will also be joining in for tonight's audition (for the lay man's perspective).
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You are right, most of the hifi amp of late 70ts and 80ts had a punchy and forward sound signature, you could feel kind of linear muscle power through them. May be due to the trend of music on that time. I use to enjoy music of R.D. Burman and Bappi Lahiri with those so much (some neighbor had those). It was very thrilling and live feeling which are hard to find on today's amp.
However there are some positive things about today's hifi amp and speaker system. They are more keen on micro details than power, especially they are focused on vocals. It's a kind of trade off. There are very few ones which gives us both involvement and enjoyment.
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greenhorn
Well-Known Member
I have had a couple of bad experiences getting counterfeit semiconductors locally - How do you spot the good ones from the bad?
It is hard to figure out the counterfeits - had my share of bad experiences too.
Now I test every locally bought transistor with this incredible tester (made
it on a tiny general purpose board) -
AVR-Transistortester - Mikrocontroller.net
Reuben, great work!
Reminded me of the Marantz 2270 I fixed some time back. It is amazing that
these boxes are capable of holding their own even after 3 or 4 decades.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
I think you've used the right term here "muscle power"
If I have to make some comparisons, the NAD 3020 is more like a hollywood actress (mostly of the 1940s and 50s), very soft, romantic, sweet, sugary and flowing, especially with vocals and orchestration. The NAD 106/216thx combile is more like the trendy, easy going, pleasant, kind and simiing friendly neighbourhood guy, while the V5000 is like the big muscle guy who is very refined in his own way but muscles his way through situations with agressive punching and ruthless confidence.
We had a long listening session and shall share the track by track detail by tonight or tomorrow.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
I have had rotten experiences with local components right from early times. My first stereo amp (DIY) was a TBA810S based setup. When we started construction, we managed to get 2 Japanese Hitachi made ICs and they sounded really nice and dynamic. Later on, when one of them got fried, we replaced it with a local one (not branded, guess it was made somewhere in India). There was a terrible difference between the 2 channels, the Indian one sounded dull and worthless while the Hitachi one had great dynamic range. That was my first lesson about the quality of Indian components. However over the years, I have noticed that Indian Philips electrolytic capacitors and some of the Keltron electrolytics were pretty good. The components we get in the local market these days I assume are made in China. Better to go with European or American components. In a worst case scenario, even if they are made in China, they would have to adhere to strict American or Euro quality standards.
Reuben, read complete thread and I thoroughly enjoyed it (can't stop to read completely ). I appreciate your dedication and patience (which is more important) to restore your amplifier.
Recently changed my Technics GE-90 DSP's power supply capacitors with all Keltron, It is common display spectrum issue in all Technics GE-90.
Again, Congrats for your success. Enjoy!
). I appreciate your dedication and patience (which is more important) to restore your amplifier. Recently changed my Technics GE-90 DSP's power supply capacitors with all Keltron, It is common display spectrum issue in all Technics GE-90.
Again, Congrats for your success. Enjoy!
reubensm
Well-Known Member
am yet to write the final review as I've been very busy with work over the last week and weekend, shall pen down the review by today.
On another note, I am getting a few enquiries asking whether I plan to keep the amp or sell it off. My association with my NADs is not just about the listening experience but is based on a desire to own them, which I carried along for a major part of my adult life. I will not be parting with these. Had plans to set up a vintage rig at my wife's ancestral home, using the V5000 and my Technics SL3200. However, my wife is against the idea (I'm trying to convince her). If we finally decide against it, then I'll have to bite the bullet and let this magnificent but highly under-rated amp, go.
On another note, I am getting a few enquiries asking whether I plan to keep the amp or sell it off. My association with my NADs is not just about the listening experience but is based on a desire to own them, which I carried along for a major part of my adult life. I will not be parting with these. Had plans to set up a vintage rig at my wife's ancestral home, using the V5000 and my Technics SL3200. However, my wife is against the idea (I'm trying to convince her). If we finally decide against it, then I'll have to bite the bullet and let this magnificent but highly under-rated amp, go.
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reubensm
Well-Known Member
Sorry the the delays in posting, got diverted a bit with my speaker experiments. Since new cables are in place, thought I'll re-do this audition. Had a longish listening session late last evening which included 2 Nat King Cole LPs, 1 Englebert Humperdinck LP and a few James Last LPs. Shall post the final results tonight, positively.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Before penning down my findings, here are the setups:
Configuration-1
Technics SL3200 DD TT (with Shure M97XE)
Preamp: Nad 106
Poweramp: Nad 216thx
Speakers: BPL 700TM Symphony Series (with finolex cabling)
Tone Control Settings - Flat
Volume Control - 9 o' clock
Poweramp soft clipping - off
Configuration-2
Technics SL3200 DD TT (with Shure M97XE)
Integrated amp: Grundig V5000
Speakers: BPL 700TM Symphony Series (with finolex cabling)
Tone Control Settings - Flat (on all 4 controls, 40Hz, 300 Hz, 2500 Hz, 16000 Hz)
Volume Control - 9 o' clock
Volume db Control - null position + or - 0
Loudness - off
TT Interconnects - Stock Technics
Power-Pre Interconnects for Nads - Python
LPs played (1/2 American pressings, 3/4 British pressings)
1) Nat King Cole - Unforgettable
2) Nat King Cole - Ramblin Rose
3) Englebert Humperdinck (self titled)
4) James Last - Instrumentals Forever, In Concert, Trumpet a Gogo
Listened to all these LPs at a stretch using the first configuration and second configuration alternatively. Did the listening over a period of 2 days using the same speaker positioning in my new home's listening space. Each configuration was listened to, on separate days.
First to go was the NAD setup on day-1:
At the outset, NAD's neutral sound presentation and fluid tonal balance was extremely evident, probably as I am very used to this sound signature. There was a marked difference from my usual listening with the Shure M44-7, the M97xe sounded comparatively laid back, but very soothing and at the same time, attractive. Nat King Cole's baritone voice sounded extremely rich in quality but at the same time, not bassy. James Last's orchestra sounded very warm, the wind instruments were very smooth and pleasant to listen to. The bass on the Nad was tight and solid. Imaging as usual was superb, infact Nat and his team sounded as though they were on my balcony, playing for us. The violins on the James Last album, Instrumentals Forever seemed to be flowing like a stream, they sounded quite exiting with the imagery. Overall, the NADs held their ground as expected, these are robust pieces of equipment with world class reputations, the 106 being the exact derivative of NAD's legendary 1000 preamp. Wify joined for the listening session and was of the opinion that the NAD played wonderfully well. It was time to turn off and pick up on day-2.
On day-2, it was the turn of the Grundig V5000, and made a start with good old Nat's Unforgettable. The striking first impression was that Nat's voice sounded bigger (not louder) in dimension when compared to the NAD's performance from the previous day. Another noticeable difference was the upfront imagery. The NADs tended to produce a deep image wherein we felt that the musicians were on the balcony, playing for us (of course, the balcony door was left open). With the same open door arrangement, the Grundig gave us a feeling that Nat and his team were present in the room. More upfront but with slightly better imagery. The Grundig presented more aggressive bass treatment, could here the double bass thumping louder on the Nat albums. Englebert's voice also sounded much lager (in terms of dimension) when compared to the Nads. On the highs front, the Grundig was way more aggressive when compared to the Nad's neutrally flowing warm sound. The mids presentation of the Nads was a tad better than the Grundig's but overall, the imagery of the Grundig was much better with the overall sound dimensions being more enhanced when compared to the Nads. When we played the Instrumentals forever LP, we heard some tingling sounds in the orchestration which were missed during the Nad's listening session. The Nad's phonostage offered a more pleasant and controlled sound while the Grundig's phonostage was brutally honest and let one know if there was dust on the record surface. Wify wanted to hear how Tina Turner sounded on the Grundig so we wired in my el-cheapo Sony Dvd player and played Tina Turner's private dancer. Sounded very sparky and dazzling. Wify flipped the loudness switch on and our listening space was transformed into the floor of a disco club. This kind of sound cannot be achieved with the Nads clearly agreeing with the fact that is amp is from the early 1980s Eurodisco era. The best part of it is that the Grundig can be attributed to the best of both worlds. One can go conventional with the tone controls in flat position and the loudness turned off and at the same time, one can go coloured with the loudness control turned on and with tinkered tone controls.
Time for the verdict, the Grundig was a surprise package. In earlier tests it ran past the NAD 320 and fought hard against the 3020. In my opinion it hammered the Marantz PM80. However I personally would hand this final round to the Nads. Yes, I may be biased because I love my Nads but the Nad's all round capability is what impressed me the most. The sheer pleasure derived when listening to the Nads is unexplainable, never felt fatigued or bored listening to them. On the other hand, the Grundig V5000 has no world class reputation to go by, but is a surprise package and a silent killer. It can easily give some big names a run for their money. The build quality of the Grundig is outstanding and its a pity that Grundig never got the kind of international prominence which they were able to achieve in Europe back in the day. Where in the world can one find an audiophile grade amp which has 2 moving magnet phono inputs, a moving coil phono input and stereo microphone inputs, apart from the usual tape, tuner and aux inputs. This one is simply and amazing package and very tempting, but as I said, at the end of the day, when the sun sets, I'd like to go to bed, listening to my Nads sing.
On a final note, wify and I have decided not to go ahead with the plans for a second rig for now. As a result of this, I may have to let the Grundig go so watch the classifieds section for more in the coming days
Configuration-1
Technics SL3200 DD TT (with Shure M97XE)
Preamp: Nad 106
Poweramp: Nad 216thx
Speakers: BPL 700TM Symphony Series (with finolex cabling)
Tone Control Settings - Flat
Volume Control - 9 o' clock
Poweramp soft clipping - off
Configuration-2
Technics SL3200 DD TT (with Shure M97XE)
Integrated amp: Grundig V5000
Speakers: BPL 700TM Symphony Series (with finolex cabling)
Tone Control Settings - Flat (on all 4 controls, 40Hz, 300 Hz, 2500 Hz, 16000 Hz)
Volume Control - 9 o' clock
Volume db Control - null position + or - 0
Loudness - off
TT Interconnects - Stock Technics
Power-Pre Interconnects for Nads - Python
LPs played (1/2 American pressings, 3/4 British pressings)
1) Nat King Cole - Unforgettable
2) Nat King Cole - Ramblin Rose
3) Englebert Humperdinck (self titled)
4) James Last - Instrumentals Forever, In Concert, Trumpet a Gogo
Listened to all these LPs at a stretch using the first configuration and second configuration alternatively. Did the listening over a period of 2 days using the same speaker positioning in my new home's listening space. Each configuration was listened to, on separate days.
First to go was the NAD setup on day-1:
At the outset, NAD's neutral sound presentation and fluid tonal balance was extremely evident, probably as I am very used to this sound signature. There was a marked difference from my usual listening with the Shure M44-7, the M97xe sounded comparatively laid back, but very soothing and at the same time, attractive. Nat King Cole's baritone voice sounded extremely rich in quality but at the same time, not bassy. James Last's orchestra sounded very warm, the wind instruments were very smooth and pleasant to listen to. The bass on the Nad was tight and solid. Imaging as usual was superb, infact Nat and his team sounded as though they were on my balcony, playing for us. The violins on the James Last album, Instrumentals Forever seemed to be flowing like a stream, they sounded quite exiting with the imagery. Overall, the NADs held their ground as expected, these are robust pieces of equipment with world class reputations, the 106 being the exact derivative of NAD's legendary 1000 preamp. Wify joined for the listening session and was of the opinion that the NAD played wonderfully well. It was time to turn off and pick up on day-2.
On day-2, it was the turn of the Grundig V5000, and made a start with good old Nat's Unforgettable. The striking first impression was that Nat's voice sounded bigger (not louder) in dimension when compared to the NAD's performance from the previous day. Another noticeable difference was the upfront imagery. The NADs tended to produce a deep image wherein we felt that the musicians were on the balcony, playing for us (of course, the balcony door was left open). With the same open door arrangement, the Grundig gave us a feeling that Nat and his team were present in the room. More upfront but with slightly better imagery. The Grundig presented more aggressive bass treatment, could here the double bass thumping louder on the Nat albums. Englebert's voice also sounded much lager (in terms of dimension) when compared to the Nads. On the highs front, the Grundig was way more aggressive when compared to the Nad's neutrally flowing warm sound. The mids presentation of the Nads was a tad better than the Grundig's but overall, the imagery of the Grundig was much better with the overall sound dimensions being more enhanced when compared to the Nads. When we played the Instrumentals forever LP, we heard some tingling sounds in the orchestration which were missed during the Nad's listening session. The Nad's phonostage offered a more pleasant and controlled sound while the Grundig's phonostage was brutally honest and let one know if there was dust on the record surface. Wify wanted to hear how Tina Turner sounded on the Grundig so we wired in my el-cheapo Sony Dvd player and played Tina Turner's private dancer. Sounded very sparky and dazzling. Wify flipped the loudness switch on and our listening space was transformed into the floor of a disco club. This kind of sound cannot be achieved with the Nads clearly agreeing with the fact that is amp is from the early 1980s Eurodisco era. The best part of it is that the Grundig can be attributed to the best of both worlds. One can go conventional with the tone controls in flat position and the loudness turned off and at the same time, one can go coloured with the loudness control turned on and with tinkered tone controls.
Time for the verdict, the Grundig was a surprise package. In earlier tests it ran past the NAD 320 and fought hard against the 3020. In my opinion it hammered the Marantz PM80. However I personally would hand this final round to the Nads. Yes, I may be biased because I love my Nads but the Nad's all round capability is what impressed me the most. The sheer pleasure derived when listening to the Nads is unexplainable, never felt fatigued or bored listening to them. On the other hand, the Grundig V5000 has no world class reputation to go by, but is a surprise package and a silent killer. It can easily give some big names a run for their money. The build quality of the Grundig is outstanding and its a pity that Grundig never got the kind of international prominence which they were able to achieve in Europe back in the day. Where in the world can one find an audiophile grade amp which has 2 moving magnet phono inputs, a moving coil phono input and stereo microphone inputs, apart from the usual tape, tuner and aux inputs. This one is simply and amazing package and very tempting, but as I said, at the end of the day, when the sun sets, I'd like to go to bed, listening to my Nads sing.
On a final note, wify and I have decided not to go ahead with the plans for a second rig for now. As a result of this, I may have to let the Grundig go so watch the classifieds section for more in the coming days
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Decided to proceed with selling the amp as I could not ago ahead with my plans for a second system, the approach was to recover cost of restoration only (component cost only), shipping extra. Here is the reference to the sales thread:
http://www.hifivision.com/sale-owner/45133-grundig-v5000-hi-fidelity-integrated-amplifier.html
http://www.hifivision.com/sale-owner/45133-grundig-v5000-hi-fidelity-integrated-amplifier.html
Hi! My father and I were thrilled after coming across and reading your post. My father is a retired Indian Air Force Pilot, who also imported the Grundig v5000 amplifier when he was in Iraq in 1981 after hearing the amp at his colleagues place in Iraq. In fact he took the names of both the people after I made him read your entire post. Both his colleagues coincidentally settled down in Bangalore after retiring so I guess you have got 1 of their amplifiers. We also have the Grundig V5000 amplifier with the Grundig SM 3000 speakers, their cassette deck and their turntable. The sound of the amplifier with these speakers is something I have not heard on any other system.
Unfortunately about 15 years back from time to time the amplifier kept going dead and we have been able to get the amplifier repaired here in Delhi, but every time the repair has lasted only 6-8 months or a year after which the amplifier again goes dead. We have a whole lot of spare parts which we have imported from time to time and the complete circuit diagram of the amp in English courtesy Grundig. I was wondering if their is any way I could get in touch with you on a one to one basis so that you could help / guide me on how I could get our amplifier completely restored back to its original state. My father and I would be extremely grateful to you.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Unfortunately about 15 years back from time to time the amplifier kept going dead and we have been able to get the amplifier repaired here in Delhi, but every time the repair has lasted only 6-8 months or a year after which the amplifier again goes dead. We have a whole lot of spare parts which we have imported from time to time and the complete circuit diagram of the amp in English courtesy Grundig. I was wondering if their is any way I could get in touch with you on a one to one basis so that you could help / guide me on how I could get our amplifier completely restored back to its original state. My father and I would be extremely grateful to you.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
BufferBill
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BufferBill
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