Help Reqd. : LivingRoom HomeTheatre cum ListeningRoom

[cmsajith]

I am in the process of converting my living room to a pseudo kinda HomeTheater cum Listening room. I have attached a rough layout of the living room with the adjacent rooms and a detailed layout of the living room with dimensions.

Following are the color representations in the picture:
*Speakers : Green
*Windows : Blue
*Pillar : Grey
*LCD / Projector screen : Pink

- Living Room dimension 16 x 11.6 x 9.6.

- Main Door entry is at the left bottom. A passage to the living room to Dining room is there at the corner and a pillar at the opposite wall.

My Plan:
-------
- To keep the LCD TV and the Projector screen at the wall opposite to the entrance door. (Pink). The LCD and screen will be located to the center of the room width (not centered to the wall) so that the LCD will be more towards the right side of the 8ft wall and the screen will go out of the wall (Pull down screen). The passage will be closed with a convertible sliding door w/ acoustics to get the feel of a dedicated room.

- The flooring will be wooden.

- The speakers (green) will be ~5ft into the room but not much from the side walls (1ft max).

- Listening position will be ~10ft from the speakers

- ~1.6ft will be left at the back side of the listening couch / recliner.

- Thick drapers with blackout cloth for the windows.

- False ceiling with mood lighting

- DIY 15" 8cuft subwoofer will be below the projection screen lying flat on the ground (like a furniture cabinet). Center channel will be on top of it.

- The electronics will be most probably on the right side wall of the listening couch

- Acoustics (Help required)..
Planning to do the acoustic treatment (using Anutone boards) till 4ft from the ground (except the front and back wall) with glass wool below the boards (if required) and keep the top portion exposed.

Please help me in finding the locations (with respect to the picture) for doing the acoustic panels and the density required for them including the walls, corners and ceiling.
Note: Aesthetics is not considered at this time, will be fine tuned once the locations are finalised.

Also suggestions for a different layout is also welcome.

Fullsize:
Picture1 : Imageshack - livingroom.gif
Picture2 : Imageshack - layoutu.gif

 

[cmsajith]

It seems from the previous HT builds, the entire room needs to be covered with fiberglass sheets which does the sound absorbtion and sound proofing both, mainly for sound proofing. In my living room, there are two windows (aluminium - sliding). With these, is it possible to do the sound absorbtion?

@Santhosh, in your theatre, you have used the fibre glass for the bottom panels along with the anutone boards for the mid-high freq absorbtion. Isnt the Anutone board enough to do the absorbtion? Does the fibreglass has any purpose than the sound proofing?

Please guide me whereall the mid-high freq and the low freq absorbtion boards-fibreglass to be applied?

If required, i can post the photos of the room.

Following are the identified places for the low freq absorbtion (from the pics):
- The space b/n the pillar at the left side wall and the front wall, from top to bottom with 3-4" depth.
- Another 3ft on the front wall (left side) as a continuation of the above leftside wall treatment. (here also top to bottom)
- Continuation to that, the top portion of the front wall till the right wall (2ft from the ceiling). Below, the LCD will be wall mounted and the exposed portion will be pasted with sound diffusing kind of rough tiles or will be a curved (towards front) structure.
- Entire Bottom portion of this wall, ie., behind the subwoofer (need to find a solution to keep the sub isolated from the floor, may be using some sand filled structure)
- Right side passage will be covered with a sliding door with low freq absorbtion acoustics. (Not finalised)
- At the backside of the listening position, the low freq absorbtion can be applied to the backside of the main door
- Again at the right side wall end and top of the backside wall

Following places are identified for the mid-high freq absorbtion
- At the left side wall, the bottom portion of the window after the pillar or where all the Left/Right speakers are being reflected using the mirror experiment.
- At the right side wall, the same as left side wall.
On both sides i am planning to do only till the speaker\ear level. I have seen some of the listening rooms with vertical diffusers at the side walls, any idea about their role and how to find their locations?
- A small portion b/n the main door and the window at the back side wall will have a vertical kind of diffuser.

- Did I miss any locations?
- Do I need to treat the ceiling, if so where all?
- If sound proofing is not possible in this room, i may not go for the sliding doors at the passage. Is it recommended to keep it open as the sound wont get reflected from there? I am looking for a closed room feeling as inside a dedicated theater room. Please advise.

 

[cmsajith]

Waiting for the advice from the experts.

 

[vinay]

Congratulations to the great step of entertainment.

To have a wooden flooring is not a good idea but then you have no choice unless you have a dedicated room for such activity instead of choosing the living room.

There are acoustic curtains with the other side thick black colour of which may not be found in the market, it is so black.

The false ceiling should be acoustic tiles or the equivalent one's, there is a talk that tiles vibrate which is surely not true in my case as i have a first hand experience as i am using them, the slight vibration scope comes when volume is very high and for that matter it also counts which brand of tiles you are using and who is the installer, in my case i have used the world leaders brand "Armstrong". Indeed with such a false ceiling there will be lot of options about mood lighting laced with other benefits.

I think it is not possible to decide now where the sub woofer will be placed, one can know the right place only after trying at different points of the room, while to keep the center speaker above the woofer may not be a good idea.

I have used glass wool 4 inches from ground till 3 feet and thereafter it is 2 inches.

V.

 

[cmsajith]

Thankyou vinay for your suggestions.

Yes I know, I need to compromise on some of the elements as I am setting up the AV room in the living room.

- Since i cannot do wall-to-wall carpeting in the living room, i am going for wooden flooring (i think it will be better than a vitrified or marble flooring as this may help to some extend to isolate the sound from going down to the next flat). Anyways I will be putting thick carpets at the first reflection points.

- Is there any reference for the acoustic curtains?

- For false ceiling, i am planning to go for a similar design as one of our forum member has done (IndianEars, thankyou for your detailed photos) with a different layout as Acoustic panels will not look good in a living room.

- Subwoofer placement will be an issue as it will be a huge box. Is it possible to correct the sub placement by doing the acoustic treatement? Most probably, the location will be at the rightside end of the 8ft front wall.

What about the planned room size and the identified locations for the treatement? Since it was a dedicated room, you did with 4" and 2" panels throughout. In my case its not feasible, so I am planning to do the acoustics at the desired locations only. But my intention is to get the feel of a treated dedicated room, so I need to make sure that all the locations are identified.

Please go through my other questions also.

- A general question, If I use high density boards / glasswool with 4" thickness (for the low freq) on the sides upto 4ft from the floor and keep the upper portion open, does it take care of the mid and high frequency also along with the low frequency absorbtion?

 

[santhosh]

Sajith, just saw you thread mate. Am at work now and will reply once I get back home.

 

[santhosh]

It seems from the previous HT builds, the entire room needs to be covered with fiberglass sheets which does the sound absorbtion and sound proofing both, mainly for sound proofing. In my living room, there are two windows (aluminium - sliding). With these, is it possible to do the sound absorbtion?

Use thick curtains for the windows for sound absorption. See if you can add another layer of windows such that you have an air gap between the two windows - this should address sound proofing. Any outlet(even a key hole) through which air can pass out of the room is prone to let sound out, so see if this double layer is achievable.

@Santhosh, in your theatre, you have used the fibre glass for the bottom panels along with the anutone boards for the mid-high freq absorbtion. Isnt the Anutone board enough to do the absorbtion? Does the fibreglass has any purpose than the sound proofing?

Please guide me whereall the mid-high freq and the low freq absorbtion boards-fibreglass to be applied?

I have used fiberglass behind the Anutone boards primarily for sound proofing. I have used 75mm of High Density(48kgm) fibreglass wool wherever the walls meet the floor, the ceilings and the walls. This acts as a Bass Trap as Low Frequency attacks the corners of the room. I have used 50mm of Low Density (25kgm) fibreglass wool behind the Anutone Boards so as to not have a partially resonating cavity. Don't think, they are adding to the Mid and High Frequency Absorption because the Anutone Boards have a good NRC by themselves. So for Mid and High, this may have been redundant. But for bass, the more the better.

If required, i can post the photos of the room.

Please do buddy, am sure that will give us a better idea.

- For false ceiling, i am planning to go for a similar design as one of our forum member has done (IndianEars, thankyou for your detailed photos) with a different layout as Acoustic panels will not look good in a living room.

That is a nice design, will also allow you to add some cove lighting. Go for it mate, you can't go wrong. I would have done that if I did not have that grid structure on my ceiling.

A general question, If I use high density boards / glasswool with 4" thickness (for the low freq) on the sides upto 4ft from the floor and keep the upper portion open, does it take care of the mid and high frequency also along with the low frequency absorbtion?

You should be able to achieve the same with a good looking acoustically transparent cloth. Please do not leave Fibreglasswool exposed, it is a nightmare dealing with the flakes.

 

[santhosh]

Following are the identified places for the low freq absorbtion (from the pics):
- The space b/n the pillar at the left side wall and the front wall, from top to bottom with 3-4" depth.
...................
...................- If sound proofing is not possible in this room, i may not go for the sliding doors at the passage. Is it recommended to keep it open as the sound wont get reflected from there? I am looking for a closed room feeling as inside a dedicated theater room. Please advise.

Knowing you and that you are also into Interior design, I have no doubt that you'll make all the acoustics look good. But just a thought, since you are doing this in the living room, why not just treat only the reflection points and room corners and do any other treatment only on a need basis. How badly do you need sound proofing? Tell us more about the house/flat, what is next to the windows etc?

Some random thoughts (lazy to quote from your post):
Use sliding doors, but ones slide and fit flush. Your Dayton sub will rattle the door if you use a conventional sliding track. Go for a closed room feel, close all doors and windows (double wall and curtains should suffice), treat them with absorption - try to maintain symmetry as much as possible. Diffusor idea for front wall is great, your soundstage and imaging is supposed to improve. I have only read about it, need to try it yet.

 

[cmsajith]

Thanks santhosh for your comments. Please find my further Qs below:

Use thick curtains for the windows for sound absorption. See if you can add another layer of windows such that you have an air gap between the two windows - this should address sound proofing. Any outlet(even a key hole) through which air can pass out of the room is prone to let sound out, so see if this double layer is achievable.

[Sajith] : Its more or less achievable, need to check the feasibility. Also need to seal all the gaps for the doors also, anyways its required as it helps in a/c cooling also. What about the sound leaking through the structure \ walls, does it leak?

I have used fiberglass behind the Anutone boards primarily for sound proofing. I have used 75mm of High Density(48kgm) fibreglass wool wherever the walls meet the floor, the ceilings and the walls. This acts as a Bass Trap as Low Frequency attacks the corners of the room. I have used 50mm of Low Density (25kgm) fibreglass wool behind the Anutone Boards so as to not have a partially resonating cavity. Don't think, they are adding to the Mid and High Frequency Absorption because the Anutone Boards have a good NRC by themselves. So for Mid and High, this may have been redundant. But for bass, the more the better.

[Sajith] : So what you mean to say is that its better having the boards with high density fibrewool at the backside to absorb the low freq as well as the mid and high?

That is a nice design, will also allow you to add some cove lighting. Go for it mate, you can't go wrong. I would have done that if I did not have that grid structure on my ceiling.

[Sajith] : In your HT, isn't there any treatment done for the ceiling other than the corners? Even though you have backed it with fibrewool, the sound wont reach it since it is covered by the platform for sky lighting, so its same as a normal ceiling, am i right?

Tell us more about the house/flat, what is next to the windows etc?

[Sajith] : This is a top floor corner apartment with the adjacent apartments coming at the left and bottom wrt to the picture in the first post. There is an open space at the left side of about 6ft (throughout) from the next apartment and a small portion of another apartment comes at the front side (open space of at least 10ft). The remaining 2 sides of the apartment is open. Layout Plan (My apt is marked in red) : Imageshack - apt.gif

One issue is that even though there is a gap of 6ft from the next apt at the left side, the next apt's room next to the living room of my apt is one of their bedroom and there is also a window at the same position as my living room window.

The apartment comes at the front will not be an issue, as the owner has also some interest in these (recently he bought a 42" Sony lcd), if not, to make him more happy i may think about sharing my NAS media folders wireless with his m/c so that he can also access my media collection whenever he is able to ping my NAS.

Since i am at the top floor, the apartment below will have issues. This is one of the main reason why i am going for wooden flooring as it will be a floating floor with a little thermocol padding. I cant help them more than that..

Edit: I will definitely post the pics, may be this weekend, as i am reaching home late these days.

 

[sud98]

Sajith,

Hope to follow this thread like a leech Great to see the path you are taking and best of luck.

Sudhir

 

[santhosh]

What about the sound leaking through the structure \ walls, does it leak?

Not much really, you can avoid serious sound proofing since yours is a Living room.

So what you mean to say is that its better having the boards with high density fibrewool at the backside to absorb the low freq as well as the mid and high?

Yup, by adding more layers of glasswool, you also increase the density (sort of, but not exactly). So, the Anutone boards take care of the mids and highs, while the additional layers of glasswool help in taming the LFs.

QUOTE=cmsajith;141522]In your HT, isn't there any treatment done for the ceiling other than the corners? Even though you have backed it with fibrewool, the sound wont reach it since it is covered by the platform for sky lighting, so its same as a normal ceiling, am i right?[/QUOTE]
Sajith, my ceiling acts as a diffsorber. I have used double layers of peg boards glued together as it is a good idea to have holes half the size of the diameter of the holes (read in venkat's post somewhere). The diffsorber funda is that whatever sound waves(highs and mids) manages to go through the holes gets absorbed. Everything else is diffused because of the angle in which it hits the ceiling and some reflected like in every other diffusor. So, I have a 25 mm layer of low density glasswool for absorbing mids and highs and above that is a 75mm layer of high density glasswool for handling bass.

In this post of mine, you'll fine more info on what I have done and what inspired me to do so:
http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhanc...suggest-false-ceiling-option-4.html#post64134

Only difference between what the OP of that thread has done and I have done is:
a) His is an acoustic cloud design, whereas mine is a like a cove as I needed to hide the grid like structure on my concrete ceiling.
b) The OP has used RPG Panels which has holes in a random whereas mine has a uniform spread of holes. However, I have achieved some randomness because of filling up some holes (200 of them) with the optic fiber tips. There are also some holes that have been clogged with Fevicol most of which I cleared. I left a few for randomness. Frankly, I dunno how to test if this ceiling is working or not, it looks good in theory and also I like the sound of my system in my HT, so will leave it at that.

 

[santhosh]

This is a top floor corner apartment with the adjacent apartments coming at the left and bottom wrt to the picture in the first post. There is an open space at the left side of about 6ft (throughout) from the next apartment and a small portion of another apartment comes at the front side (open space of at least 10ft). The remaining 2 sides of the apartment is open. Layout Plan (My apt is marked in red) : Imageshack - apt.gif

One issue is that even though there is a gap of 6ft from the next apt at the left side, the next apt's room next to the living room of my apt is one of their bedroom and there is also a window at the same position as my living room window.

The apartment comes at the front will not be an issue, as the owner has also some interest in these (recently he bought a 42" Sony lcd), if not, to make him more happy i may think about sharing my NAS media folders wireless with his m/c so that he can also access my media collection whenever he is able to ping my NAS.

Since i am at the top floor, the apartment below will have issues. This is one of the main reason why i am going for wooden flooring as it will be a floating floor with a little thermocol padding. I cant help them more than that..

Edit: I will definitely post the pics, may be this weekend, as i am reaching home late these days.

Neighbours on the same floor can be helped by double layers of windows with an airgap and most importantly by sharing some media.

Neighbours below may be a problem, especially the LF which can get passed on structurally. Wooden floors will help to some extend if really suspended. But then, you should DIY with cheap real wood like Pine or rubber wood rather than buy ready wooden flooring as the installers will not be flexible with your ideas. Subhash had some luck by using Anutone boards below his Sub.

 

[cmsajith]

@Santhosh, Oh I was under impression that you have used all the holes in the ceiling for the star lighting. Now i got your point.

How about closing the windows (similar to normal wooden window panes) from inside with doors filled with fibrewool? Any idea how to seal the gap in the main door, what about the automotive door beading..?

Normally, all the wooden flooring is like a floating floor (exact word would be a sub-floor with a little padding to tame down the footstep sound).
For the sub alone, i am planning to create a 3" or 4" ht. stage which will look like a skirting of a cabinet (same size as sub) with sand / fibrewool filled in and at the top with 2 layered plywoods sandwitched with a little rubber padding or any other sound isolation compound to isolate it from the floor.

Update:
Following is the 3D simulation of the first reflection points in my room. From the simulation, the side walls has to be treated ~4' ht. and 6' x 4' area on the ceiling and the same on the floor.
Imageshack - frpu.jpg

The speaker location is almost in the 38% theory range from the front wall. The equilateral triangle comes almost in the planned listening area, but not exactly, need to adjust with the speaker and couch repositioning.

The side and front and back wall treatment can be flushed inside, the problem is with the corner bass traps. Anybody tried the sealed Panel \ Membrane Bass traps?

 

[vinay]

The acoustic curtains are available from a store in Mumbai, who is the leading importer of curtains and related, one would rarely get to see such things in indian stores, i had seen them during the making of my theatre.

I think that people who have a very high passion for making a dedicated theatre with small shades of other entertainment will go for such excellent curtains, having said this, if the dedication is so high then in the first place he will never have windows.

V.

Is there any reference for the acoustic curtains?

 

[nandac]

sorry for intruding on this thread. but how do you create a new thread on this forum? i can't see any option for this.

 

[vinay]

If you private message me your phone number, i shall call you up and take you through.

V.

sorry for intruding on this thread. but how do you create a new thread on this forum? i can't see any option for this.

 

[vinay]

The another layer of windows is a good idea, there are acoustic glasses available in the market but main problem is to get the right installer, they have the reputation to fit them not in order so the sound does leak in bits and pieces so the whole purpose to have such special glasses goes down so moral of the story is to get importantly the job done from someone who has handled cases of studio and related. These are costly glasses, at least 3 times more the cost of a normal one.

The photos and drawings which you are posting is a good idea but have you seen some of the members home theatre's? If you have not done this then be assured your foundation is not on the right track so please do work on this.

To get the right kind of acoustically transparent cloth has it's own challenges and you can not afford to go wrong over here, i have seen a leading interior guy going wrong over here.

V.

Use thick curtains for the windows for sound absorption. See if you can add another layer of windows such that you have an air gap between the two windows - this should address sound proofing. Any outlet(even a key hole) through which air can pass out of the room is prone to let sound out, so see if this double layer is achievable.

You should be able to achieve the same with a good looking acoustically transparent cloth. Please do not leave Fibreglasswool exposed, it is a nightmare dealing with the flakes.

 

[vinay]

It is great that you are into interiors so at least on this front you will face minimum problems in my case i never had the interior guy, i did all the designs etc by myself because i had 3 fall outs with the interior guys the way they were handling my dream project.

Indeed the treatment should be done only where importantly required i have seen cases where the treatment was done more then required that includes me too.

The sound proofing does play a good role in terms of neighbours and our adjoining rooms, so important points have been raised to know more about your house.

V.

Knowing you and that you are also into Interior design, I have no doubt that you'll make all the acoustics look good. But just a thought, since you are doing this in the living room, why not just treat only the reflection points and room corners and do any other treatment only on a need basis. How badly do you need sound proofing? Tell us more about the house/flat, what is next to the windows etc?
.

 

[vinay]

Well you are lucky that you are at least in some terms with your neighbours so at least that relives you quite a problem in my case they refuse to even talk so i have to bring up the matter with society's office etc.

Well for whatever you do to control the sound and if that still bothers you neighbours then they can make your life hell, one can not get away that i can not do anything more keeping in mind that there will be scope to protect them more especially if you have the craze for low frequencies via sub woofer or high volumes.

In ceiling treatment is surely required, i have used acoustic tiles but there are other options as members have used.

V.

Its more or less achievable, need to check the feasibility. Also need to seal all the gaps for the doors also, anyways its required as it helps in a/c cooling also. What about the sound leaking through the structure \ walls, does it leak?

In your HT, isn't there any treatment done for the ceiling other than the corners? Even though you have backed it with fibrewool, the sound wont reach it since it is covered by the platform for sky lighting, so its same as a normal ceiling, am i right?

This is a top floor corner apartment with the adjacent apartments coming at the left and bottom wrt to the picture in the first post. There is an open space at the left side of about 6ft (throughout) from the next apartment and a small portion of another apartment comes at the front side (open space of at least 10ft). The remaining 2 sides of the apartment is open.

Since i am at the top floor, the apartment below will have issues. This is one of the main reason why i am going for wooden flooring as it will be a floating floor with a little thermocol padding. I cant help them more than that..

 

[vinay]

The holes which i have done during the treatment on walls via plywood, spunch and glasswool are in sizes line to the cone sizes of my 5.1 speakers.

V.

I have used double layers of peg boards glued together as it is a good idea to have holes half the size of the diameter of the holes The diffsorber funda is that whatever sound waves(highs and mids) manages to go through the holes gets absorbed.
.