Hi-End Speaker Cables

[asliarun]

Until personally experience the difference no one agree with the high end/gauge cable funda.. I was one among them until I changed my surround speaker cables.

My denon 3312 was connected with reasonably good cable bought from local shop for last 2 years. As I moved to new house one cable become short and I have ordered C & E 14 AWG 100 feet cable from amazon.

Once I changed I felt that increased sound and clarity (placebo effect ) from surround speakers. I have re calibrated with Audussey mike again and found loudness of the rear speaker reduced by -4 .

So now I believe there is something different when using high AWG wires.

The crucial difference, IMHO, is that you need to look at "high end" and "gauge" separately. Basic electrical fundas dictate that a wire, especially for long runs such as 100ft in your case, introduces its own resistance. Call it resistance, or call it current carrying capacity. That is also why 15A wire is thicker than 5A wire. The pipe (wire) has to be literally wider - just like you would for a water pipe.

But, just like a water pipe, there's a threshold. Like you would get benefit from increasing your water pipe from .25" to 1", but if you increase from 1" to a 4" pipe, there might be no point as the water supply itself is not that much.

So going with a higher gauge is definitely a good upgrade (say, from 22awg to 14awg), but only up to a point. I would also say that this upgrade would be especially noticeable in a home theater setup as the power amp section of a multichannel AVR amp is much weaker (per channel) than the power amp section of a stereo amp. So, the reduced resistance of a higher gauge wire, especially for long runs, means that your amp doesn't need to strain as much.

There are a few links online with some very handy charts or thumb rules on what gauge wire you should use for the length of your speaker cable run.

Back to the point, I would say that well constructed, well terminated wire with decent shielding and decent enough gauge is my thumb rule. I am willing to spend money for this level of quality. But "high end" is subjective - and also largely dependent on the quality of other components. Like if I had a Porsche, I would obviously spend more money on my tires as well, even if it is a bit beyond the law of diminishing returns.

The other thing most people neglect is that the nut and terminators are often made of brass. Even some of the high end terminators and binding posts! Which means that your high quality oxygen free copper cable terminates at both ends on a high resistance brass endpoint! So that should be fixed first! (Of course, it is a lot more difficult to do without risking damage)

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

There are expensive cables these days that have boxes which contain components. You are no longer sending the signal, end to end, down a wire: you are sending it into a circuit. I'm sure that those circuits can be designed as filters, and that those filters can, according to design, make a greater or lesser effect on some frequency or other.

I may be dumb about electronics, and I may be wrong, but, what else is a passive crossover but a combination of capacitors and resistors? So, by nothing more or less than manipulation of capacitance and resistance, the signal is filtered, separated into higher and lower parts for the tweeter and woofer. I don't think anybody can argue about this "effect?"

Now, again even though I am dumb about electronics, I reason to myself that a piece of cable has capacitance and resistance, and it is possible to manipulate these, and thus, even this simple "circuit" may potentially filter frequencies, and if the frequencies passed are changed, then obviously the sound will not be the same.

(I wonder why someone who has gone to the trouble of buying really nice equipment wants to put a filter in the way of the sound)

In one exceptional case, the electrical properties of a speaker cable (It was called something-Cobra, I think. I could dig deep into my bookmarks, but Google will probably oblige faster) apparently had a tendency to blow up amplifiers. It would be hard to deny that cables have an effect when you pride and joy has been reduced to a smoking mass!

So many things are possible, and the open mind should do research as well as listening. Or, to put it another way, there is more than one kind of listening

The open mind should then (in my not-so-humble opinion) ask some questions about why we hear what we hear. There are lots of possibilities, but there are also things that are unlikely, and those things should, at the very least, be given a really, really, hard time by all our faculties before we accept them, and especially before we pay hard-earned cash for them.

(See my sig. We should be researching those cables )

There is one truth: nobody, but nobody, whatever the training, knowledge, experience, whatever, can escape the way in which the ear/brain relationship actually works, nor can they escape their expectations and biases.

And that is why... blind testing.

And that is why... the clever marketing people have tried to get us to believe that one can't blind test these things. Well, they are right about that!

 

[dheerajin]

So..in nut shell..one should buy $$$ cables first with expensive connectors..then think of attaching speakers and amp at the ends...buy the amp with chrome plated face plate and buy any tower speaker and get made emblame or sticker of any famous speaker brand .thats it..system is ready..your friends will be impressed by sonic qualities of cable and connectors..or directly buy a BOSE sysem..you dont need to buy a expwnsive cables then..friends will be drooling by seeing your system...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

in nut shell..one should buy $$$ cables first with expensive connectors..then think of attaching speakers and amp at the ends

That's what Audioquest and all would like us to believe, yes! I suspect you have probably put your finger on the very next stage of this crazy business. When will see the first requests for equipment that synergises well with a given set of cables?

 

[heliumflight]

Virenji's cables are the best! I've tried very exotic stuff and find that a single thick copper strand produces best results.

 

[keith_correa]

So for speaker cables: ever thought inside the [speaker] box? At the back of the terminal, more often than not, there will be a horrid lug screwed to the terminal. What about contact here? Assuming the manufacturer uses decent cables for the wiring from here leading to the x-over, what about the x-over itself? The signal will pass through thin [very!] leads for resistors, capacitors and through inductor wire. And the horror of it all - they are mostly aluminium. And when the wire connects at the speaker driver - think of what the lugs are made of. And after the lugs, ever wonder what sort of wire the signal passes through to reach the voice coil? And ever thought about the wire used in the voice coil?

SOLDER! Don't even get me started!!!

To think that we obsess about cables leading to the speaker terminals - there's a lot of crap beyond that we don't see and so we rest, blissful in our ignorance.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Whichever side of the fence (and I hope it is a wire fence made of some exotic material) one is on, someone eventually points out, and rightly so, that these discussions always go around in circles. There is no progress made at all, and no extra understanding is added to the community.

I know that Rajesh and I don't mean quite the same thing when we speak of open minds, or, at least, we're coming from different directions (and remain friends anyway) but really, that is what is needed. Open minds to all aspects of the issue.

Who knows, such an investigation might well lead to having more money to spend on amplifiers and speakers. But the manufacturers wouldn't like it. Nor would the dealers, who seem to enjoy a higher mark up on such products than they do on much of the hardware.

I don't despair altogether, because quite a few people here, on top of those who buy from companies that claim no more than simple transparency, there are an increasing number who are choosing similar wire manufactured by the names that supply pro audio, for their DIY cables. Those who really want their cables annealed in the saliva of virgins will never change: their world will collapse if they have to give up such ideas! But there are still a huge number of music listeners who are prepared to buy a moderate and reasonable premium for well made and well terminated wires, without having any time for fantasy exotica.

 

[Ambio]

..
And that is why... blind testing.

And that is why... the clever marketing people have tried to get us to believe that one can't blind test these things. Well, they are right about that!

Double blind tests may not really reveal everything. Our brain works differently when the situation changes. Maybe that's the reason why many could not pass the DBT.

There are also other research saying that you may miss what is obvious if you are not looking for it.

As far as I am concerned, whether cables make a difference or not does not matter. It is too insignificant to be part of your setup. Unless, you got extra cash and time to play with your equipment.

_____________________________________

If you were working on something at your computer and a gorilla floated across your computer screen, would you notice it? You would like to think yes, however, research shows that people often miss such events when engaged in a difficult task. This is a phenomenon known as inattentional blindness (IB). In a new study from Brigham and Women's Hospital (BWH) in Boston, researchers have found that even expert searchers, operating in their domain of expertise, are vulnerable to inattentional blindness.


This study published this week Psychological Science.
"When engaged in a demanding task, attention can act like a set of blinders, making it possible for stimuli to pass, undetected, right in front of our eyes," explained Trafton Drew, PhD, post-doctoral researcher at BWH and lead author on this study. "We found that even experts are vulnerable to this phenomenon."
The researchers asked 24 radiologists to perform a familiar lung nodule detection task. They examined five scans; each scan contained an average of 10 nodules. A gorilla, 48 times larger than the average nodule, was inserted in the last scan. The researchers found that 83 percent of radiologists did not report seeing the gorilla. With the help of Melissa Le-Hoa Vo, post-doctoral researcher at BWH, the researchers tracked the eye-movements of the radiologists and found that that the majority of those who missed the gorilla looked directly at it.
"The radiologists missed the gorillas not because they could not see them, but because the way their brains had framed what they were doing. They were looking for cancer nodules, not gorillas," explained Jeremy Wolfe, senior psychologist and director of the Visual Attention Laboratory at BWH. "This study helps illustrate that what we become focused on becomes the center of our world, and it shapes what we can and cannot see."
The researchers note that it would be a mistake to regard these results as an indictment of radiologists and stress that even this high level of expertise does not immunize against inherent attentional limitations of what we perceive. The results suggest that even expert searchers typically only see what they are looking for, and are often unaware of the unexpected. The researchers hope that the results will lead more expert searchers to recognize the important role of attention in determining what the searcher will find and what they may miss.
This work was funded by a NRSA post-doctoral fellowship from the NIBIB to TD.

________________________________________________

From Sciencedaily.

 

[captrajesh]

Good sound is not some magical gift that only can be heard by a select few. Don't torture yourself by countless hours of AB'ing to find the difference. I wouldn't consider something as an improvement if I couldn't tell on the first hearing. I have seen many audiophiles spend days and group listening just to prove cable X is better than cable Y. Is that the purpose of having spend money on a system and we are still trying to figure out which cable would be better instead of listening to music?

Well said; fully agree.

the open mind should do research as well as listening. Or, to put it another way, there is more than one kind of listening

The open mind should then (in my not-so-humble opinion) ask some questions about why we hear what we hear. There are lots of possibilities, but there are also things that are unlikely, and those things should, at the very least, be given a really, really, hard time by all our faculties before we accept them, and especially before we pay hard-earned cash for them.

(See my sig. We should be researching those cables )

There are so many whys for which we do not have answers; at least not as yet.

To think that we obsess about cables leading to the speaker terminals - there's a lot of crap beyond that we don't see and so we rest, blissful in our ignorance.

Agree with the above. There are somethings we can change and there are somethings can't do anything about. If we can make some changes to achieve what we are looking for, why should we worry about things that we can't do anything about and forego what we can do!

I sometimes wonder!

Why do we need to eat? Why can't we live without eating.
There are so many horrible things that would not happen if all living things don't need to eat.
Why should I sleep and waste about 1/3 of my life! Why can't I forego sleep?
That time can be better utilised in doing things I wish and love to do.
Why should there be religion? Why do I need to go to Temple and pray?
There are so many horrible deeds that people do in the name of religion.
Why should I live in community? Why should I socialise?
I feel suffocated fostering relationships; I love being alone; So!

So many things I wish but can't do without!

 

[dheerajin]

Things are taking philosophical angle..gr8..looking forward for more such inputs..[emoji2]

 

[Record Player]

A very interesting thread indeed with some great and honest inputs. I recently made meself a few sets of ICs and I tell you what, they are easily $1000 cables . On a serious note, I did quite a bit of reading and found a fairly best possible match of cables and connectors within a decent budget of course and it really did make a difference which I am quite happy with. I will continue to experiment different cables (DIY) within that same budget.

 

[sunder]

+1 to hifiramr and rav_mk1

and dont add banana plugs to the cable. adding banana will add one more resistive material to signal path. Bare wire connections are best and no $$$ banana plug can compete with same.

dheerajin, thank you. I also had tried before with bare wire and the result was very good. But the expensive cables like Van Den Hul- carbon coated-cables need to be kept as oxidation and dirt free. So that they need connectors made with high quality materials. IMHO, Less expensive, pure copper(6N) wire can be used as bare wire and the result also will be convincing! Regards.
-sunder.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Contrary to popular opinion, mostly the opinions of the afraid, [double-]blind testing is not there simply to prove that two samples/setups/etc have no difference. There might be a difference. All they do is exclude the obvious effects of inputs from out other senses and the biases of our brains and psychology --- whether it is our response to to a sample rate, a price ticket, a beautiful piece of carpentry or a name tag. We don't need to query the absolute state of scientific knowledge, we need to look at these basics.

 

[Soundstage]

The most obvious reason for reviewers in general to shy away from, and also cast aspersions on cable DBTs, would be that they do not want to go into raptures discussing in vivid detail the differences they heard between different cables only to find they had been listening to the same cable.

Who would willingly volunteer to be caught with his pants down in public?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Here's an interesting comment on Gearslutz from Bob Olhsson

It's only short, but I'm shy to cut&paste in case of copyright problems. Please take two minutes to click on the link.

 

[keith_correa]

And he also says this. Think CAT5

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yes, saw that. Browsing led to this, although that's a rather specialist application.

Yes, I've always been against using CAT-n cables for anything other than networking, and have regularly claimed that it's purpose-based design makes it suitable only for that purpose. OK... vewpoint under revision. Work in Progress!

Here's another one, though, on why those audio cable manufacturers should just shut up about "skin effect." Understanding Skin Effect and Frequency.

Fascinating stuff about the high-frequency applications in which it does matter, though, eg, the wire could be a tube, and nothing would be lost, and they make copper-covered-steel cables that would be useless of low-frequency applications.

(Links are to articles in Steve Lampen's blog at Belden)


~

 

[jls001]

Yes, I've always been against using CAT-n cables for anything other than networking, and have regularly claimed that it's purpose-based design makes it suitable only for that purpose. OK... vewpoint under revision. Work in Progress!

When I first read about the usage of CATn cables for ICs (and even speaker cables), I was intrigued enough to try it out for myself. To that end, I pestered Keith, fount of all knowledge and wisdom on all things esoteric in audiodom, and he kindly showed me how to do proper Litz braid. That was about a year ago, and I never got down to DIY-ing an IC. But recently the urge took over again and I actually made an unbalanced IC using two completely stripped wires from a 7 foot CAT6 Belden patch cable and the results have been nothing short of an audio epiphany. The standout feature of the cable is how it accentuates the decay, imparting a sense of effortlessness and relaxation. It also has a very open sound, something I have long strived to achieve in my setup. In fact there's not a single area where I don't like its sound signature. Perhaps it is a little reticent in the mids, but not by much. I like it so much that I have decided to take it one step further by using pure silver wire of the same gauge. So don't shy away from CATn cables. They are very good.

 

[prem]

Hi Jls001

Before you try silver, try 30 gauge magnet wire from Vampire. You will get your mids back and it will sound even more open. I have tried both stripped cat cable and magnet wire. With silver it becomes very system dependent. It's a hit or a miss. In case you want silver buy bare wire from German high end

 

[jls001]

Thanks Prem. The silver wire is already purchased from a friendly neighbourhood jeweller He claimed that it's "pure" silver. Of course I don't believe him.

Yes, trying a thinner gauge is in the pipeline. I was thinking using 28 or 30 AWG transfomer wire. The enamel coating can be removed by burning it on a flame. Tedious, but do-able. Keith did limited R&D on stripping the enamel (I told you he's the fountain of all esoteric knowledge and wisdom).

BTW, what is the composition of magnet wire?

Another candidate is vermeil wire (sterling silver wire with 24 carat gold plating). It is available in all gauges and fairly affordable. It is supposedly the cheapest way of getting near-pure gold wire (considering that most of the electricity flows on the surface of a wire due to skin effect).