Hi-Fi system for Indian classical music

[Dr.Bass]

Good guess. As long as you do not confuse my posing a question for the sake of furthering a discussion as the story of my life, you will do just fine ...

Oh not at all !!! instead its the story of my life. Even after listening to a good number of systems ranging from very basic to very high end...I can count on my fingers the experiences when Indian classical music came out really nice.
That says something about this genre. The Quad setup, though at the entry end was nothing short of mesmerizing...it was driven by Quad CDP and Quad 99 power amp. It was a learning experience for me and I do not want my fellow audio friends to go through the same cycle to reach there...

 

[thevortex]

My mistake, may be I did not explain myself well enough.
When I said extended high frequency is very important for Hindustani, I did not mean it is more important than mids or lows. All I wanted to say is, for this genre of music high frequency extension becomes very important as there is a lot of upper octave information and their harmonics which if not reproduced well just doesnt do justice to this kind of music and robs it off the realism that was otherwise possible.
I am not an expert in raagas like Asit but when I hear a Sitar, Sarangi, Shehnai or even a Tabla, there is so much decay and air around them which is impossible to achieve if the highs are rolled off. It just doesnt sound as real.
And please do not relate high frequency extension to distortion (some people call it tizzy, zingy etc). Extension means clean extension and when that happens you hear a much more resolved and true HF, it can even sound sweet...no sense of fatigue at all.
I had mentioned in my earlier post that it would come as a surprise to many as why this genre is difficult to reproduce and Gobble your post illustrates that and if you do not take it as an offence and just as a friendly suggestion, your post also illustrates that you have not yet experienced Hindustani music on a "proper" setup. When I say proper, I dont mean expensive setup but an "appropriate" setup.

Someone has already mentioned how a Cadence Electrostat does it even though its laidback in nature. I have recommended the Quads because I have listened to them with various kind of music, while they suck while playing Rock/Pop stuff...they excel while playing Jazz, Indian Classical, Blues and other Acoustic music.
Epos are better all rounders but they dont excel in any genre.

As for amplifiers, at this budget one would not gain much by spending additional 15k for a NAD over a Norge (which is a very nice amp at the entry level) especially considering that a lower end speaker is not going to cut it.
Moreover it is easy to sell off the amp later and go for a real nice amp which the speakers will do justice to and vice versa.

I would beg to differ about the EPOS speakers, but other than that I am in agreement.

 

[square_wave]

Rolled off sound is a safe choice when designing budget equipment - Wharfedale is a classic example.

If you have extended frequency response in the highs or lows in the design and if the drivers, crossover components and implementation is compromised, it results in very unpleasant sound. Shrill / bleached highs, boom, muddy midrange etc........

With electronic music, most people do not notice the roll off or compromises build into the design. The moment you play acoustic, natural instruments or vocals in classical you start noticing the flaws. This is not because the speaker is not designed for "classical". It is because the brain can relate to natural instruments/voices and is able to decipher the differences. Hence you start noticing it.

A loudspeaker which is neutral in design can reproduce all music faithfully. But the market dictates a certain kind of voicing for different genre of music. Hence a certain amount of coloration is often added. Hence you may find a speaker designed by a western designer slightly more appealing with western music.

Voicing is a market driven phenomenon. Not a necessity.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I would beg to differ about the EPOS speakers, but other than that I am in agreement.

What is it that you do not agree about EPOS ?

 

[Asit]

With electronic music, most people do not notice the roll off or compromises build into the design. The moment you play acoustic, natural instruments or vocals in classical you start noticing the flaws. This is not because the speaker is not designed for "classical". It is because the brain can relate to natural instruments/voices and is able to decipher the differences. Hence you start noticing it.

A loudspeaker which is neutral in design can reproduce all music faithfully. But the market dictates a certain kind of voicing for different genre of music. Hence a certain amount of coloration is often added. Hence you may find a speaker designed by a western designer slightly more appealing with western music.

Excellent comments, square_wave. You have diagnosed the problem I have with many speakers. Many of them do not seem to produce the correct tonality of tabla, sitar or sarod and the vocals I am so familiar with. I always wondered why I am not liking these particular speakers as much as others like them. Sometimes I even started doubting myself. I think you have answered my question (I did not ask it though).

Dr. Bass, you are asking that question to Vortex, I suppose. I am too interested in the answer. I like the 12.2 and 12i at that price point for Indian classical music. Don't know about other genres.
Regards.

 

[thevortex]

What is it that you do not agree about EPOS ?

About it not excelling in any one area. Especially in comparison to the Quad. Up until about Rs. 70,000 I dont see a speaker which has the EPOS beat on all counts. I listen to a lot of classical music and music where vocals and acoustic instruments hold the upper hand. They are stellar - in one word.

Before you ask, I have heard the Quad bookshelves and have found them to be a bit 'antispetic' in their treatment of music. Micro-detailing is all there but not the soul. That is just my thought of course.

 

[square_wave]

Excellent comments, square_wave. You have diagnosed the problem I have with many speakers. Many of them do not seem to produce the correct tonality of tabla, sitar or sarod and the vocals I am so familiar with. I always wondered why I am not liking these particular speakers as much as others like them. Sometimes I even started doubting myself. I think you have answered my question (I did not ask it though).

Dr. Bass, you are asking that question to Vortex, I suppose. I am too interested in the answer. I like the 12.2 and 12i at that price point for Indian classical music. Don't know about other genres.
Regards.

Till date the only system which I have heard which does complete justice to classical music is a complete DIY design by acoustic portrait. This is the designer's personal system not available commercially.

Asit, I wish you were in Bangalore. You should hear the tabla or any other unamplified instrument / voice. I can guarantee that you will be stunned by the stark neutrality of the sound. The micro/macro detailing and dynamics are unbelievable.

If at some point in time, you want to upgrade your speakers, please do consider hi-end DIY for classical music.

 

[Dr.Bass]

About it not excelling in any one area. Especially in comparison to the Quad. Up until about Rs. 70,000 I dont see a speaker which has the EPOS beat on all counts. I listen to a lot of classical music and music where vocals and acoustic instruments hold the upper hand. They are stellar - in one word.

Before you ask, I have heard the Quad bookshelves and have found them to be a bit 'antispetic' in their treatment of music. Micro-detailing is all there but not the soul. That is just my thought of course.

Oh, I did not mean that in a negative sense at all. When I said EPOS does not excel in particular area I only meant that relative to QUAD and wanted to say that EPOS do not "favour" and particular kind of music. IMO they are very good all rounders. I would not go upto 70k but around 50k they are superb. But since Sanjeev has not mentioned any other genre in his initial post so I strongly recommended QUAD which is totally in a different league (at least when used with Quad electronics) at least for classical music IMO.

 

[odyssey]

Some of the EPOS speakers have their crossovers outside the crucial mid range - M12 has it around 5K. This is similar to the verity audio design (and perhaps others). Likes/dislikes apart, this type of design typically will allow for more purity in the reproduction in that range - similar to a single driver. While

Vortex, while I dont know which model you have, I can assume this is why it sounds good for the genres you mentioned.

cheers

 

[psychotropic]

hey sridhar,

so what's the trade-off? of having the crossover at 5k instead of say 2k? I assume there's a trade-off or otherwise everyone else would also be doing it right? Or is Epos just cleverer than everyone else?

Some of the EPOS speakers have their crossovers outside the crucial mid range - M12 has it around 5K. This is similar to the verity audio design (and perhaps others). Likes/dislikes apart, this type of design typically will allow for more purity in the reproduction in that range - similar to a single driver. While

Vortex, while I dont know which model you have, I can assume this is why it sounds good for the genres you mentioned.

cheers

 

[thevortex]

Some of the EPOS speakers have their crossovers outside the crucial mid range - M12 has it around 5K. This is similar to the verity audio design (and perhaps others). Likes/dislikes apart, this type of design typically will allow for more purity in the reproduction in that range - similar to a single driver. While

Vortex, while I dont know which model you have, I can assume this is why it sounds good for the genres you mentioned.

cheers

Yes Sridhar. You know, what the crossover is and how it affects what we play - no matter how much I could have read about it earlier, I would not have understood it unless I listened to it. And listened to it in the longer term. For this is not a bling-bling feature that would strike you in the face in a couple of auditions.

The model I have is the M12.2 and curiously I liked it better than the newer M12i.

 

[thevortex]

hey sridhar,

so what's the trade-off? of having the crossover at 5k instead of say 2k? I assume there's a trade-off or otherwise everyone else would also be doing it right? Or is Epos just cleverer than everyone else?

Sridhar is probably the better person to answer this. But I would just venture to guess that it is all about maximizing output at both ends of the frequency. With a more complex crossover perhaps they may have been able to squeeze out a few more notes of bass and gone a bit higher with the treble. But with this sort of simplicity in the crossover, there is not a lot of mainpulation of sound within the speaker - giving you fatigue free listening. But may not be the best specificiations.

Just my blathering. Can somebody pitch in and correct me if I am wrong?

 

[thevortex]

Oh, I did not mean that in a negative sense at all. When I said EPOS does not excel in particular area I only meant that relative to QUAD and wanted to say that EPOS do not "favour" and particular kind of music. IMO they are very good all rounders. I would not go upto 70k but around 50k they are superb. But since Sanjeev has not mentioned any other genre in his initial post so I strongly recommended QUAD which is totally in a different league (at least when used with Quad electronics) at least for classical music IMO.

Sure Dr. Bass. Got your point. Personally I have heard the Quad 12L2 and preferred the EPOS over it. But then there was no matching the equipment or the rooms. This is a big problem here. So, all estimations of equipment will perforce not only be subjective but also highly variable and hence not lend themselves to easy and unbiased comparisons.

I am curious - which other speaker around, say Rs. 60000 would you recommend for this genre?

 

[odyssey]

Sridhar is probably the better person to answer this. But I would just venture to guess that it is all about maximizing output at both ends of the frequency. With a more complex crossover perhaps they may have been able to squeeze out a few more notes of bass and gone a bit higher with the treble. But with this sort of simplicity in the crossover, there is not a lot of mainpulation of sound within the speaker - giving you fatigue free listening. But may not be the best specificiations.

Just my blathering. Can somebody pitch in and correct me if I am wrong?

Psychotropic

Well, I wouldnt say that one designer is far ahead of the other. They are all catering to slightly different philosophies. You need a good driver that can remain fairly flat upto 5K and yes, this will come with a tradeoff in the lows. Also EPOS uses a simple first order crossover so the driver probably rolls off sharply after 5k. On the bass, its possible that it doesnt go so low (which in itself is not so much of a problem) but another by product could be that it wont be able to play very loud. In fact when loud strong bass sounds come along, its possible that there is a bottoming out of the bass driver. In terms of the driver itself - its harder/more expensive to design a driver that plays to a higher frequency while still delivering the lows - this is obvious

 

[gobble]

Yes Sridhar. You know, what the crossover is and how it affects what we play - no matter how much I could have read about it earlier, I would not have understood it unless I listened to it. And listened to it in the longer term. For this is not a bling-bling feature that would strike you in the face in a couple of auditions.

The model I have is the M12.2 and curiously I liked it better than the newer M12i.

Possibly if you do A/B testing with full rangers, or listen to them at length with your favorite tracks, your listening (not hearing) will pick up more acutely the effects of a crossover. It worked for me atleast. Ofcourse thats not to say one will be able to identify the difference between a XO at 2k vs 5K automatically, but atleast you will recognize the "effects" of an XO the minute you hear it.

Regards

 

[Dr.Bass]

Psychotropic

Also EPOS uses a simple first order crossover so the driver probably rolls off sharply after 5k.

I suppose it is the opposite Shridhar. A first order cross over means a very shallow slope at the crossover point, which again means that there is a significant overlap of frequencies where both the drivers are playing, this in turn results in higher coherence and eliminates localization of tweeter.
It is indeed an achievement for EPOS to develop a midbass driver which can extend so high.

so what's the trade-off? of having the crossover at 5k instead of say 2k? I assume there's a trade-off or otherwise everyone else would also be doing it right? Or is Epos just cleverer than everyone else?

As Shridhar has explained, every driver has a range of frequencies that it can reproduce within a flat response. Beyond these frequencies either the driver will bottom out or the cone breaks up resulting in distortion.
Most mid bass drivers are crossed over at below 3khz because they dont handle higher frequencies. But then they are expected to go lower into 30s hz.

BTW, Shridhar, the Epos does go loud.

 

[thevortex]

Possibly if you do A/B testing with full rangers, or listen to them at length with your favorite tracks, your listening (not hearing) will pick up more acutely the effects of a crossover. It worked for me atleast. Ofcourse thats not to say one will be able to identify the difference between a XO at 2k vs 5K automatically, but atleast you will recognize the "effects" of an XO the minute you hear it.

Regards

Well, if the change is that detectable then I would be happy. But somehow I doubt that a small time interval would be enough to know all about the drivers - advantages and disadvantages too and then come to a conclusion as to whether I can live with it.

 

[odyssey]

Dr Bass
actually it's the way I initially wrote it. The driver needs to roll off sharply
after the crossover point otherwise as you said being a shallow roll off from the crossover point of view the driver would end up trying to reproduce the tweeter freq as well. This is the reason the main driver needs to roll off sharply after the xover
cheers

 

[thevortex]

Audio_engr - now that explains it! I always used to like the M12.2 over the M12i and I was always told that that was probably my own personal fixation. I did not know about the changed crossover ratios.

And yes I have read the stereomojo review many times. One among the many which prompted me to give the EPOS numerous auditions, home auditions and what not over a period of a few months.

Actually I will confess that I did not fully understand your post about the rolloffs at 6 db/octave etc. Could you please expand on that when you have some time? My understanding of the crossover was quite simplistic as in executing the function of routing frequencies to the tweeter and to the woofer - after separating them.

 

[square_wave]

Folks,

I hear that most designers strive to use mid bass drivers with steep mechanical roll off characteristics if they are using first order crossovers in the design. They need to roll off pretty fast after the crossover point from where the tweeter takes over.
Green mountain audio is an example.